Biggest whine about HERO

[Blue]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Really? Used to happen all the time in our games. I remember three games in a row one night, we get to the combat.

One of the heros with a 6d6 KA (3 different characters) and each one rolled 30 body and a x5 for Stun. The odds of that just had us floored, though the combats went pretty quick...

Your AK47s are 6D6K?

[Warp9]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Lack of absolutes. More of a persoanal gripe than anything else because it makes an Exalted conversion almost impossible.

 

I always liked that one.

 

When I was fairly young I bought a book by Isaac Asimov. It dealt with many questions about science.

 

One of these questions was: what happens when an irresistable force meets and immovable object?

 

Answer: If there is such a thing as an irresistable force, then there (by definition) cannot be an immovable object, because, there is at least one force which could move it.

 

And if there is an Immovable Object, then (by definition) there cannot be an irresistable force, because, there is at least one object it cannot move.

 

If you start doing absolutes, you will run into this problem unless you are very careful (you'd have to allow only some kinds of absolutes, but not others).

 

Or you end up having some kind of roll to break ties when absolutes come into conflict. But then you don't actually have an absolute anyway. Because there are times when your "absolute" power will hit a limit (the other absolute power).

 

Finally, a character with 2000 STR TK has enough power to move the whole Universe, and that is close enough to absolute power for my taste.

[lemming]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Your AK47s are 6D6K?

Nah. They were 2d6 AP, +1 Stun, AF 10...

[nexus]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I always liked that one.

Finally, a character with 2000 STR TK has enough power to move the whole Universe, and that is close enough to absolute power for my taste.

 

Without getting into "Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it" arguments, What I think most people are talking about when they say "absolutes" for Hero in my experience is "Avoids certain mechanics" At least that is what I'm talking about when I use the term.

 

An attack that doesn't require an "Attack Roll"

A Defense that doesn't require a damage roll, it just stops all damage.

Etc.

 

Of course somthing would stop it so perhaps "Absolute" is not the best term. Such effects can generally be stopped by something in their source material, just the normal means to resist them (dodging, etc) don't exist. The Defense can be overcome with a different type of attack or even special effect, the the attack can be blocked by something.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Without getting into "Can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it" arguments...

 

/tangent on

 

That's an easy one. God can create a rock so heavy he can't lift it. He can then turn around and lift it. In order to be truly omnipotent God would have to be capable of paradox, otherwise logic is more powerful than God.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Assuming Tony Stark is an above average guy but still reasonably normal inside that armor (say with a 20 or 23 CON)' date=' Iron Man could have a rPD between 37 and 40 and still be Stunned on a perfect 2d6 RKA hit. Now I don't really think that's enough armor for Iron Man myself, but then I think M1A2 Abrams are underarmored at 30 DEF too and have been told I'm crazy so maybe Iron Man has only 30 or 35 PD. [/quote']

Am I the only one who adds normal PD/ED to his armor on top of the resistant kind? You do realize normal PD and ED applies to the Stun of KAs as long as you have some resistant defenses, right?

 

Besides, if we use your example Iron Man construction, the chances of doing 50 or more Stun with that 2d6 KA are exactly 1/36. I call that sufficiently improbable that it merits the description of hitting him in the side of the head or right on the visor or something, and is enough to disorient him.

 

Damage Reduction at some level is an excellent choice for any power armor character where the man inside the armor is assumed to be a normal man.

 

Allows things that bypass that armor (Ego Blast, NND, etc) to have the natural and normal effect it should have on him.

 

DR isn't only for villains (assuming the build is done right).

Agreed. Even 25% DR can be a beautiful thing....

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Am I the only one who adds normal PD/ED to his armor on top of the resistant kind? You do realize normal PD and ED applies to the Stun of KAs as long as you have some resistant defenses, right?

 

Besides, if we use your example Iron Man construction, the chances of doing 50 or more Stun with that 2d6 KA are exactly 1/36. I call that sufficiently improbable that it merits the description of hitting him in the side of the head or right on the visor or something, and is enough to disorient him.

 

 

Agreed. Even 25% DR can be a beautiful thing....

 

I'd just like to note that damage reduction DOES apply to NND's. (Which surprised ME, I'd like to add...)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Just for the heck of it I looked up Sam Bell's version of Iron Man

32/32 hardened + 1/2 Damage reduction (and a base 8 pd/ed)

 

And here Sam usually has a tougher version out there.

I'd have less trouble with that version personally, but IMO it's still too weak. Taking some Stun from a perfect AK hit (2d6 w/+1 Stun Multiplier: 12 x 6 = 12 BODY; 72 STUN) is more realistic than him getting Stunned or possible KO'd. In that version he'd take 16 Stun after his defenses, which almost Stuns him. (18 CON) It still really bugs me that a character can take so much Stun from an attack that cannot possibly cause BODY. Of course, if you used Hit Locations and got a head shot (2X BODY) then the 2d6 +1 Stun AK-74 actually has a chance of KO'ing Iron Man with one shot! (12 x 2 = 24 BODY; 24 x 6 = 144 Stun. So even with 32 rDef + 8 PD and 50% Damage Reduction he's taken 52 Stun, which puts him at -20 Stun.

 

Iron Man's original gray armor was specifically designed to protect him from rifle bullets, but a single skilled sniper with a scoped .30-06 deer rifle could drop him in one shot from 300 yards despite the fact that it can't possibly do him actual physical harm! What's wrong with this picture?

 

Here is how I would fix it: Stun Multipliers would only apply to any BODY which actually penetrates the Resistant Defenses; otherwise they do Stun equal to the BODY roll. However, only Resistant Defenses would apply towards Stun from Killing Attacks. That would still leak Stun through to normals and many lightly defended supers, but would make most bricks totally invulnerable to small arms (as they are in the comics) without requiring 3 digit PD or a lot of handwaving. Thus in the example above, a perfect head shot with an AK-74 on Iron Man would do 24 BODY (12 x 2), which leaks zero BODY through his armor and thus does only 24 Stun, which bounces off his armor (32 rPD) completely. So even though the X6 Stun Multiplier (incl. the +1) from the head shot would still apply, 0 x 6 = 0). Iron Man cannot be hurt by mere rifles. An antitank gun or missile might be another thing entirely.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Of course' date=' if you used Hit Locations and got a head shot (2X BODY) then the 2d6 +1 Stun AK-74 actually has a chance of KO'ing Iron Man with one shot! (12 x 2 = 24 BODY; 24 x 6 = 144 Stun. So even with 32 rDef + 8 PD and 50% Damage Reduction he's taken 52 Stun, which puts him at -20 Stun.[/quote']

 

 

Can someone cite a page reference here? My recollection is that the hit location chart modifiers are both applied to the base damage of the attack. That is, if I roll 12 BOD and a head shot with an AK 47 (+1 SM) I do 72 STUN before defenses, not 144.

 

Actually, didn't 5e change the rule that the BOD multiple is applied to BOD that gets through defenses, not base BOD?

 

CAVEAT: I rarely use hit locations, so I could be way out in left field.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Can someone cite a page reference here? My recollection is that the hit location chart modifiers are both applied to the base damage of the attack. That is' date=' if I roll 12 BOD and a head shot with an AK 47 (+1 SM) I do 72 STUN before defenses, not 144.[/quote']Ooops, you're right! My bad. That's still damage equvalent to a maxed out 12d6 roll (72 AP) for 37.5 AP. And the probabilities of rolling 2 '6' with the 2d6 RKA is far greater than rolling 12 '6' with an "equivalent" EB.

 

CAVEAT: I rarely use hit locations, so I could be way out in left field.

We don't use them much either (Our is an unabashedly four color campaign), but obviously a lot of darker or more "realistic" campaigns would use them. (Generally the only way we use Hit Locations is to assign penalties for hitting a specific body part; like hitting the bad guy's arm to knock his gun away from the hostage's head.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Ooops' date=' you're right! My bad. That's still damage equvalent to a maxed out 12d6 roll (72 AP) for 37.5 AP. And the probabilities of rolling 2 '6' with the 2d6 RKA is far greater than rolling 12 '6' with an "equivalent" EB.[/quote']

 

Well, 3 6's (you need the SM die too), but the odds are still 1 in 216 vs 1 in 2,176,782,336.

 

There's a few statistical "EB vs KA" threads back in the archives, as I recall. At the suggested average DC/DEF ratio for standard heroes, they're a tradeoff as far as average stun through defenses, but most games IME have a greater DEF to DC ratio making the KA, over time, more effective.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Well, 3 6's (you need the SM die too), but the odds are still 1 in 216 vs 1 in 2,176,782,336.

 

There's a few statistical "EB vs KA" threads back in the archives, as I recall. At the suggested average DC/DEF ratio for standard heroes, they're a tradeoff as far as average stun through defenses, but most games IME have a greater DEF to DC ratio making the KA, over time, more effective.

That's my big issue with the Stun Lottery/Multiple: Too many players (and GMs) see Killing Attacks as a more efficient way to end the combat with a big Stun Multiplier than a big normal attack. They may not be as efficient on average, but as a fight stopper they look a whole lot more attractive. And of course the fact that most character's resistant defenses are lower than their normal ones merely makes KA's more attactive, particularly with an Increased Stun Multiplier. Not to mention that taking BODY makes many players cautious and/or start thinking about retreating, and of course each BODY done reduces the target's Stun by one as well. (It's remarkable how much their character taking a little BODY discombobulates some players, especially in Champions. Some people seem to feel "superhuman = invulnerable.")

 

And as you pointed out, it's 100,776,696 times more likely you'll max out a 2d6 RKA attack than a 12d6 normal one. Some players may have figured this out by now.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

and as usual, almost any thread focussing on what's wrong with the HERO system inevitably ends up talking almost exclusively about the stun lottery...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

and as usual' date=' almost any thread focussing on what's wrong with the HERO system inevitably ends up talking almost exclusively about the stun lottery...[/quote']Pretty much. I certainly can't think of any issue that generates more grumbling. You'd think that might constitute a clue to the Powers That Be that the mechanics of Stun Multipliers might bear serious reexamination in the next edition.

[Vorsch]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Id like a recosting of characteristics, all characteristics cost 2, dex gives no fig, com brought up to 1pt or made a 3/6/9talent with some game effect (gets rid of the only 1/2pt buy in the game.

 

Reason .... makes stats transparent to players, they all cost the same (especially if you lose com, which is a silly name after all, would it of killed to call it looks or even better appearance)

 

dosent affect combat balance except for bricks, who pay a double for str. No more casual str 60 bricks or worse str +40 0end MP slots which are popular, the brick now pays for str but cant be easily eclipsed. Variation in str rather than whatever the campaign max is, 60 normally as far as i can tell.

 

Spd dosent have to be high by default, alot more variation rather than spd 6 cos its campaign max

 

And most importantly general skill levels with Int/Pre are actually a good buy rather than bought only by people who didnt look at them twice. +1 with all Int skills is a insult to my....well intelligence (stat as it were).

 

Stops abusive Pre boosts (to ridiculous levels), makes gadgeteers and scientists special in the same way as bricks. Its no longer a casual buy.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Id like a recosting of characteristics, all characteristics cost 2, dex gives no fig, com brought up to 1pt or made a 3/6/9talent with some game effect (gets rid of the only 1/2pt buy in the game.

 

Reason .... makes stats transparent to players, they all cost the same (especially if you lose com, which is a silly name after all, would it of killed to call it looks or even better appearance).

I'd be cool with all primary stats costing 2 (it would actually save my DEX 43 SPD 9 character points), but rather than see COM just go away I'd like to see it changed to something closer in effect to D&D's Charisma and actually have some Skills that use it. Presence could be more used as "Impressiveness" and could therefore improve Interrogation, or Oratory, or PRE Attacks while COM (Charisma) could improve interpersonal Skills based on likeability and personality.

[Vorsch]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

It should give the same cost for dex 43 spd 9

 

99pts for dex, 37 for spd = 136

 

vs

 

66 for dex, 70 for spd = 136

 

It merely makes all characteristics cost the same, which i think is good for newplayers.

 

Spd 2 is default for all characters, only bought as a whole +1, no "only stat in the whole book/game which dosent round in players favour"

 

Its just cleaner

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I see absolutely no reason to change the cost or effect of any of the characteristics, or the nature of figured characteristics.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

It should give the same cost for dex 43 spd 9

 

99pts for dex, 37 for spd = 136

 

vs

 

66 for dex, 70 for spd = 136

 

It merely makes all characteristics cost the same, which i think is good for newplayers.

It would save this particular character points because part of her DEX and SPD are bought with Limitations, and the portions without the Limitations would be cheaper.

 

As currently built:

 

23 DEX w/o Limitation = 39; + 20 DEX w/total -1 Limitations = 30 CP

 

4 SPD w/o Limitations = 7; + 5 SPD w/total -½ Limitations = 33 CP

 

Total Cost: 109

 

 

Under your model:

 

23 DEX w/o Limitation = 26; + 20 DEX w/total -½ Limitations = 27 CP

 

4 SPD w/o Limitations = 20; + 5 SPD w/total -½ Limitations = 33 CP

 

Total Cost: 106

 

Not much of a savings, admittedly, but enough to buy her DEX up 1 higher (giving her a higher CV) or another Skill or Characteristic.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

I see absolutely no reason to change the cost or effect of any of the characteristics' date=' or the nature of figured characteristics.[/quote']Me neither, although I would not object to COM costing 1 full point if it could be applied to a few skills directly. The ½ point cost for that single primary Characteristic is a bit strange when everything else is whole numbers.

[Vorsch]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

Then a +1 level with all int skills is a good buy, rather than +5 Int.

 

Ditto for pre skills.

 

and many people do find problems with the cost of str int and pre. Especially in heroic games where for a handfull of point you can be at human max in damage and two major skill catagories.

 

And i wasent mucking around with the figured stats, just a slight adjustment that works practically identically as it is now just so i could have the aesceticaly pleasing result of haveing a cost of x2 for all primary stats.

[Vorsch]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

It would save this particular character points because part of her DEX and SPD are bought with Limitations, and the portions without the Limitations would be cheaper.

 

As currently built:

 

23 DEX w/o Limitation = 39; + 20 DEX w/total -1 Limitations = 30 CP

 

4 SPD w/o Limitations = 7; + 5 SPD w/total -½ Limitations = 33 CP

 

Total Cost: 109

 

 

Under your model:

 

23 DEX w/o Limitation = 26; + 20 DEX w/total -½ Limitations = 27 CP

 

4 SPD w/o Limitations = 20; + 5 SPD w/total -½ Limitations = 33 CP

 

Total Cost: 106

 

Not much of a savings, admittedly, but enough to buy her DEX up 1 higher (giving her a higher CV) or another Skill or Characteristic.

 

 

Your character is something of a rarity, having bought no fig on dex. I know of no other character that has this.

[Kirby]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

My biggest gripe is the lack (absense?) of continuity between 4E and 5th.

 

 

A few examples: My favorite groups (VOICE, Seven Horsemen, Protectors) are no longer part of the CU, my favorite alien race (Masq) is now simplified into one character (Masquerade). The Champions now annoy me. My favorites used to be Seeker and Quantum. Now, they no longer exist. They don't need a martial artist with a unique history, so we have a Batman clone with a ludicrous cowl. They got rid of an alien brick and replaced him with... an alien brick. This could have easily been meshed in with the "Dr. Destroyer destroys Detroit" backstory. But apparently no one thought of that (or cared to use it). (As an aside, Dr. Destroyer has been so overused, in my opinion. His "teleporting away at the last second" in the Detroit battle was "jumping the shark," for me.) I couldn't stand the VIPER or DEMON remakes either, but I won't go into that.

 

Then the products produced have characters that many are set up to be used with experienced characters, but many products sold are simply remakes of previous (mainly 4E) products "as if" we hadn't played before.

 

Anyway, you asked for gripes without debate, so there it is. I seem always willing to vent about this.

[Edsel]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

My biggest gripe is the lack (absense?) of continuity between 4E and 5th.

Yeah I really miss Solitare and Seeker they were my favorites of the 4th Edition crowd.

 

As for the Stun lottery. I don't recall a game, superheroic or heroic, in which we have not used the hit location tables for all killing attacks. Of course that still leaves the problem of the stun lottery with AE killing attacks but they are generally weaker and not as much of a problem.

[Kristopher]

Re: Biggest whine about HERO

 

My biggest gripe is the lack (absense?) of continuity between 4E and 5th.

 

 

A few examples: My favorite groups (VOICE, Seven Horsemen, Protectors) are no longer part of the CU, my favorite alien race (Masq) is now simplified into one character (Masquerade). The Champions now annoy me. My favorites used to be Seeker and Quantum. Now, they no longer exist. They don't need a martial artist with a unique history, so we have a Batman clone with a ludicrous cowl. They got rid of an alien brick and replaced him with... an alien brick. This could have easily been meshed in with the "Dr. Destroyer destroys Detroit" backstory. But apparently no one thought of that (or cared to use it). (As an aside, Dr. Destroyer has been so overused, in my opinion. His "teleporting away at the last second" in the Detroit battle was "jumping the shark," for me.) I couldn't stand the VIPER or DEMON remakes either, but I won't go into that.

 

Then the products produced have characters that many are set up to be used with experienced characters, but many products sold are simply remakes of previous (mainly 4E) products "as if" we hadn't played before.

 

Anyway, you asked for gripes without debate, so there it is. I seem always willing to vent about this.

 

 

If we're going to drift into CU dripes, as oppopsed to HERO system gripes, then my biggest might tie into the whole Champions vs Destroyer thing.

 

Champions + Destroyer = Destroyer + dead Champions...

 

so could we please have an end to the artwork depicting the Champions vs Dr Destroyer?

 

Please?