Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

What your describing is attacking from suprise, not two people going for their guns at one time and one being inhumanly fast.

 

I would just give them a 15 DX, 4 SP, and a CV of 8-10, autofire skills, teamwork, good tactics, and some PSLs versus autofire penalties.

Don't forget a little Stealth. That's pretty essential for attacking from surprise.

 

But, given the description, I don't think Lightning Reflexes are unwarrented, either. To each his (or her) own.

[Wolf]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

What your describing is attacking from suprise, not two people going for their guns at one time and one being inhumanly fast.

 

I would just give them a 15 DX, 4 SP, and a CV of 8-10, autofire skills, teamwork, good tactics, and some PSLs versus autofire penalties.

 

When they go in they take an unopposed segment twelve (suprise) and the team opens up using the Rapid Fire maneuver (in conjunction with autofire skills and psls) on multiple targets, while two or three of its members hold their actions, or cover anyone not hit. If some of the bad-guys are able to respond before the team hits their phase (very few will generally be speed four if we're being realistic - if any), then the guys with the held action cut them down using Rapid Fire (and those PSLs), and if the bad guys aren't able to react they take their phase right before their dex on phase 3. By the time the whole team goes commando and takes their 3 most of the badguys should be dead (its highly unlikely they would go in against bad odds in terms of numbers) and its just a matter of mop-up work.

 

If there were so many bogeys that this wouldn't work, then I humbly submit the Delta's probably wouldn't have gone in without a better plan.

 

Assuming six deltas enter a room with 12 bogeys (who the hell came up with that plan?), and four target two each, and the two remaining use their held phases before 3, targeting 1-2 each, and then all six target 1-2 (out of any remaining) each on phase 3, you should have a textbook operation with the deltas removing badguys who outnumbered them 2-1 without a return shot being fired in four seconds flat.

 

All without giving them anything remotely super-human of off the charts (like batmanesque lighting reflexes). And God help the bad guys if they were smart enough to hit the room with a flashbang before they went in.

*Bows* I humbly submit to someone who obviously knows more about the system than I do… Mine was a crude attempt to mimic. Not to mention Von D-man has the knowledge of SOF to make it work well. Thanks.

Can special force act in a uncontrolled enviroment faster than there dex level.

 

Otherwise its Tactics.

 

Its a gunfighter/on the Edge CyberSolo skill.

This is being nit picky, and I know your talking about Delta, which is specifically SfOD (Special Forces Operation Delta), but so you know:

Myth:

Special Forces is a generic term that can be used for Rangers, SEALs, Marine Recon, Pararescue, and any other special unit.

Truth:

The term Special Forces when used for U.S. military units refers only to the U.S. Army Special Forces. Maybe it was a little unthoughful

for SF's founding fathers to pick such an unoriginal name for their organization but anyways, they did so if someone tells you they were a SEAL, don't think "wow this guy was in special forces!" think "wow this guy was in a special operations unit!" The term Special Forces is used outside of the US, however, to describe SOF units of other nations.

found here: Special Operations.com

I think Von D-man helped me and answered your question.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Isn't there a Fast Draw Skill? Are these being confused a bit? Am I mis-remembering?

[Wolf]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Isn't there a Fast Draw Skill? Are these being confused a bit? Am I mis-remembering?

yes, however the assumption is that everyone already has their weapons out and maybe even "at the ready".

I've even seen building takedowns (commonly) against opponents that are actively covering open doors and still work, as I said #1 man usually get's pegged though, and I wasn't doing SOF stuff at that point.

-woof

[Herolover]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Is Lightning Reflexes worth it. Yes, in the right campaign.

 

In a supers or above Heroic level campaign now it isn't worth it.

 

However, in a Heroic level campaign with NCM or something close to the equivalent it is VERY worth it.

 

When I run my Heroic level campaigns I usually have DEX have the NCM limit of 20, but limit "unmodified" humans to a Dex of 24. So if you want to make sure you go first you better have Lightning Reflexes.

 

In Heroic campaigns I DO NOT allow characteristice bought as power unless they are for very specific things. Allowing players to buy stats as characteristics in a Heroic level campaign is very unbalancing since they break the NCM.

 

As far as going first being overrated, boy would I hate to see you in combat. Going first gives options. If you are in a combat and not worried about going first it means either

a) the combat is to easy for you

the person you are fighting has no tactics ability whatso ever.

 

One of the problems I have found with HERO games combat is it breaks down into my turn I attack. This is usually because one of the reasons above.

 

When you get into a fight where you aren't sure what the villian is going to do or what manuever he will pull you will be thankful that you can go first and hold your action.

[Vorsch]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Erm NCM isit a issue it limited so hence a power. and go above Ncm

 

 

Feel like changing that answer to no, or do you have house rules that make LR cost effective.

 

Re read your post, your house rules make it worth it, not my argument

[MitchellS]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

When I run my Heroic level campaigns I usually have DEX have the NCM limit of 20' date=' but limit "unmodified" humans to a Dex of 24. So if you want to make sure you go first you better have Lightning Reflexes.[/quote']

So you're saying a human can have a 24 dex, and that represents the pinnacle of humanity, but then you're saying there are some people quicker than the pinnacle of humanity? There's no logic to that. Either you're as quick as a human can be or you're not. Lightning reflexes is only saying there really is no cap to how quick a human can be, which in turn defeats the whole purpose of a cap, IMO.

[Vorsch]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

One word

 

Waylander

 

David gemmel

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

yes, however the assumption is that everyone already has their weapons out and maybe even "at the ready".

I've even seen building takedowns (commonly) against opponents that are actively covering open doors and still work, as I said #1 man usually get's pegged though, and I wasn't doing SOF stuff at that point.

Then I would have to agree with others that it has nothing to do with Lightning Reflexes and everything to do with Tactics. The first guy goes in as the sacrificial lamb, and everyone else gets free reign as the enemies exhaust their initial actions. Quite simple, really.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Thats a strange interpretation of lightning reflexes' date=' only to grab guns?[/quote']

 

It's in the book. You can buy Lightning Reflexes that only applies if you are perform a specific action (like drawing and firing a pistol).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Personally I use the heck out of Lightning Reflexes. Then again I also run pretty strait SF/normals games anyway. And if you have Delta Force, SEAL team 6, CQB, or SWAT personnel it can properly mimic the Violence of action during entry techniques. It is said that Delta enter the room so quickly that you never even see them coming in, And from some of the videos that I’ve watched of their training, I believe it. I think when it’s all said and done I give Delta a +15 lightning reflexes to show that element. But I don’t think their world-class Olympic gymnastics professionals either, so you let their DEX stay at 10-15, bump their OCV up by 8-10, and bump their Lightning reflexes up by 10-15 (for a CQB, Close Quarters Battle, environment only) and keeping your thugs/ terrorists (other than the big bosses, you know the CIA trained ones) at DEX 10, and DCV 5 and you get a character/ NPC that can hardly miss, and goes first upon entering a room…. And that’s what they do. Green Berets get Lightning reflexes for the quick fire drills they do, but I don’t know how useful it is when you are talking supers.

That’s my 2 coppers.

Woof

That sound just like ANYONE getting surprise on their targets. During Segment 12 (the start of combat), only character not surprised may act. Character's completely unware of the combat can't even abort and are considered out of combat for purposes of doing STUN. At best, I think the teams you are describing do nothing more than surprise their target by all leaping in full gear toting big scary guns, perform a PRE Attack, put all the targets at 1/2 DCV and unable to abort, and then just clean house.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

What your describing is attacking from suprise' date=' not two people going for their guns at one time and one being inhumanly fast. [/quote']

 

I should really read all the posts before I post myself.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

It's in the book. You can buy Lightning Reflexes that only applies if you are perform a specific action (like drawing and firing a pistol).

 

Sounds like a talent crying out for a Western Hero rename - Lightning Draw.

 

A lot of these abilities make a lot more sense when one puts them in the context of a specific genre or seting where they logically fit.

 

And in Western Hero, where rDEF is unlikely, sudden;y getting the first shot in is a much more critical combat ability.

[Herolover]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

So you're saying a human can have a 24 dex' date=' and that represents the pinnacle of humanity, but then you're saying there are some people quicker than the pinnacle of humanity? There's no logic to that. Either you're as quick as a human can be or you're not. Lightning reflexes is only saying there really is no cap to how quick a human can be, which in turn defeats the whole purpose of a cap, IMO.[/quote']

 

That is not the way I see it. DEX represents the innate ability of the character. Lightning Reflexes, IMO, represents a character that has trainind in one specific ability or is used to combat and able to think quickly in combat.

 

For example Athletic Gymnist guy with his DEX of 24 gets into a situation in which he is in the middle of a battle. He faces off against the hardened NAVY SEAL with a DEX of 18. Now the NAVY SEAL has bought +7 Lightning Reflexes. This , IMO, represents the fact that the NAVY SEAL has seen combat, is used to it, and understands the flow of it. He knows what is going to happen and can react before the Athletic Gymnist guy can.

 

Does this mean that the NAVY SEAL guy acts quicker than humanly possible? Not IMO. It just means the NAVY SEAL guy nows what to expect far more than the Athletic guy.

 

Let me use STR as an example. If I place a limit of STR 30 on humans and a Martial artist does 7d6 with his Martial Punch I do not feel that he is stronger than humanly possible. It is just that his training and knowledge has allowed him to hit harder. That is the way I see Lightning Reflexes.

[Force]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

That is not the way I see it. DEX represents the innate ability of the character. Lightning Reflexes, IMO, represents a character that has trainind in one specific ability or is used to combat and able to think quickly in combat.

 

For example Athletic Gymnist guy with his DEX of 24 gets into a situation in which he is in the middle of a battle. He faces off against the hardened NAVY SEAL with a DEX of 18. Now the NAVY SEAL has bought +7 Lightning Reflexes. This , IMO, represents the fact that the NAVY SEAL has seen combat, is used to it, and understands the flow of it. He knows what is going to happen and can react before the Athletic Gymnist guy can.

 

Does this mean that the NAVY SEAL guy acts quicker than humanly possible? Not IMO. It just means the NAVY SEAL guy nows what to expect far more than the Athletic guy.

 

Let me use STR as an example. If I place a limit of STR 30 on humans and a Martial artist does 7d6 with his Martial Punch I do not feel that he is stronger than humanly possible. It is just that his training and knowledge has allowed him to hit harder. That is the way I see Lightning Reflexes.

 

I can see this with a limited buy up of Lightning Reflexes. But, IMO, you are buying Lightning Reflexes along with Combat Skill Levels to represent someone with a significantly higher dex, are you not reflecting the justification of a higher dex in and of itself?

[Herolover]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I can see this with a limited buy up of Lightning Reflexes. But' date=' IMO, you are buying Lightning Reflexes along with Combat Skill Levels to represent someone with a significantly higher dex, [i']are you not reflecting the justification of a higher dex[/i] in and of itself?

 

I admit that my +7 Lightning Reflexes in the example above is over the top. I would probably never allow it in any of my games without the player coming up with some extraordinary explanation.

 

To answer your question if you are buying Lighting Reflexes and Combat skill levels to represent someone with a higher DEX than you are right, you should buy the higher DEX.

 

However, that is not what I am doing. The STR example is the best example I can give. Not every Martial Artist has a 30 STR. However, because of training I could see a Martial artist doing 7d6 with a martial punch.

 

Not every NAVY SEAL is a olympic quality gymnist. However, they do have tha ability to hit often and react quickly in combat. That does't mean they have high DEX.

 

If I follow the example that Lightning Reflexes and Combat Skill levels are only bought to represent someone with a higher DEX than you could also say that Martial Arts are only bought to repesent someone with a higher STR.

 

Why buy Martial Arts that add damage from punches or STR to grabs and disarms when you can just buy STR?

 

The reason comes down to Special Effects. No my Martial Artist isn't strong enough to lift mountains, but I have trained to know where and how to hit.

 

No my NAVY SEAL isn't the most Dexterious person on the planet, but through training I have learned how to act/react in combat.

[Mentor]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

But by doing this have you not just justified 'greater than human characteristics'?

 

I will give you some simplified examples, the dreaded Bats NCM.

 

I tried building Bats using NCM and then buying up his dex based skills, lightning reflexes, etc., ad nauseum. This was done to show that he had 'higher dex abilities' than what his stat represented.

 

I just came to the conclusion that just needing to buy these skills to represent a 'higher dex' probably justified him just having a higher dex.

 

I would say that lightning reflexes and +'s to dex based skills is ok for a +1 or +2.

 

However, if you find yourself buying more +'s to dex based skills and +'s with lighting reflex and so on, you probably ought to think that the dex you chose is simply to low.

Not at all. You have only justified greater than human specific ability.

 

A specific example is an Egoist whose Lightning Reflexes are due to his ability to predict the actions of the opponent and thus respond more effectively because he already knows where and when the attack is coming without possessing any particular increase in physical capability to out move the opponent.

[Mentor]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

So you're saying a human can have a 24 dex' date=' and that represents the pinnacle of humanity, but then you're saying there are some people quicker than the pinnacle of humanity? There's no logic to that. Either you're as quick as a human can be or you're not. Lightning reflexes is only saying there really is no cap to how quick a human can be, which in turn defeats the whole purpose of a cap, IMO.[/quote']

Exceeding the abilities that one normally would peak at based on physical characteristics can be easily justified by Magic, Psychic Powers or rubber science without ever having to deal with the paradox of "How can he be human and do that?"

 

That is why concept is so important. Deciding on powers is as much a question of would the PC have that power as can the PC afford the power.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I admit that my +7 Lightning Reflexes in the example above is over the top. I would probably never allow it in any of my games without the player coming up with some extraordinary explanation.

 

To answer your question if you are buying Lighting Reflexes and Combat skill levels to represent someone with a higher DEX than you are right, you should buy the higher DEX.

 

However, that is not what I am doing. The STR example is the best example I can give. Not every Martial Artist has a 30 STR. However, because of training I could see a Martial artist doing 7d6 with a martial punch.

 

Not every NAVY SEAL is a olympic quality gymnist. However, they do have tha ability to hit often and react quickly in combat. That does't mean they have high DEX.

 

If I follow the example that Lightning Reflexes and Combat Skill levels are only bought to represent someone with a higher DEX than you could also say that Martial Arts are only bought to repesent someone with a higher STR.

 

Why buy Martial Arts that add damage from punches or STR to grabs and disarms when you can just buy STR?

 

The reason comes down to Special Effects. No my Martial Artist isn't strong enough to lift mountains, but I have trained to know where and how to hit.

 

No my NAVY SEAL isn't the most Dexterious person on the planet, but through training I have learned how to act/react in combat.

 

Well said. In my opinion, you should never buy one game mechanic just to simulate another game mechanic. It's stupid. By a game mechanic to simulate a SFX. In your case of simulating someone familiar with combat and able to react quicker and more accurately, you can buy either Lightning Reflexes & CSLs, or more DEX. Both are valid, it just depends on which mechanic you feel is more appropriate. Personlly, I prefer DEX because it's easier and holds true to many themes of heroic action (a fast reactive guy might not look like an olympic gymnast as he jumps through closing doors, flips and rolls away from an attack or catches his fall by grabbing an awning, but he still does it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Am I the only one who isn't particularly impressed with Special Ops Forces? Sure, they have some good training, especially compared to the rest of the military, but they are regarded as expendable nonetheless. They are trained to last long enough to get the job done, and their jobs require a different skill set than merely running directly into combat, but the only individuals that are not considered expendable are high-ranking officers and weapon developers, and they don't need any particularly thorough training because they are rarely put in danger (purposefully) anyway.

 

The training of even Special Ops Forces seems pretty unimpressive when compared to someone who has devoted their life to Martial Arts, for example: a way of life designed completely around self awareness and self defense, rather than blindly going out to destroy things, kill people, or do whatever else Uncle Sam demands.

 

I would be inclined to give Special Ops soldiers somewhat greater than normal physical stats (probably none higher than a 13-14), some impressive Weapon Familiarities to be sure, maybe a small amount of Martial Arts (in all likelihood less than the 10 points technically required to buy any), a few Skills such as Tactics, Stealth, Concealment, and some PSs and KSs (SSs for some), and pretty much be done with it. Maybe 1-3 points of Lightning Reflexes would be appropriate, and maybe a +1 Per bonus.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I am impressed with Special Ops forces. They represent a real life Action Hero. They do things that the heroes in action films, only they do them in real life.

 

Of course, when you step into the game... that's everyone's character. Status Quo. Read the first few pages of the Combat champter in the rulebook where it describes that by default all character are assumed to be fighting intelligently at all times, making themselves aware of their surroundings and so on. That's the mindset of the special ops guys, only in Hero System it applies to the banker and the paper boy.

[Wolf]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

For your information Special Operational Forces are usually regarded with the same degree of trepidation as far as keeping in one piece as one would a multi million dollar jet aircraft. Due to the amount of money spent to train said soldier. Many SoF are officers, in fact a great deal of army SF are Warrant Officers. As far as level of training compared to martial artist it would be equal if not more so due to the time spent training. A usual SoF unit trains for 8 months and then goes on operation for 8 months, not much time to see family or develop a social life, but all is done happily. It’s very intensive, most are at the peak of human Physicality. Once the army Q-course had an gold medal Olympic triathlon runner over to the selection grounds running their obstacle course, he fell out (couldn’t make it). A friend of mine who ran a 7min. mile for 10 miles regularly with the 82nd joined SF and couldn’t keep up with their daily runs. Now don’t get me wrong, their all human, gang punks once surprised a SF soldier getting money out of an ATM by jumping up from behind the ATM and shooting the soldier dead, this occurred in Fayetteville NC, FT. Bragg. They say that just being in the Infantry is an occupation that keeps one as fit (or more so) than a NFL football player. And SF is 10 times the exertion. Not to mention that many SF train in martial arts.

As far as “blindly going out to destroy things†every SoF unit has their specialties, and not all are direct action.

Air Force:

“The U.S.A.F. Combat Controllers are tasked with guiding aircraft into unimproved or recently liberated airfields. In addition, they may make temporary fields for use by aircraft, cutting trees or in some cases removing mines from the potential landing site. They may also have to remove obstacles placed on airfields.

The U.S.A.F. Pararescue teams are the Air Force's elite medical forces that are capable of supplying trama and medical assistance for not only downed pilots or ground crew but also special operations forces and units. They are highly trained during a grueling phase that washes out the vast majority of applicants. Their SAR [search And Rescue] missions include:

Search and Rescue operations

NASA Space Shuttle launch support

Downed aircrew and aircraft recovery

In addition to Combat Controllers and ParaRescue, the US Air Force also contributes another ground force to the US SOCOM's deployable forces. Specially trained Air Force Combat Weather Team (CWT) members can collect real-time weather intelligence data during special operations missions. They perform these special reconnaissance missions independently or while augmenting other Combats forces in hostile areas.

Special Operations Weather Teams (SOWT) are composed of specially selected, and trained airborne quilified Combat Weather (CW) personnel who are tasked with providing specilized weather support to US special operation forces (SOF).

US Air Force Special Operations Forces TACPs are Enlisted Terminal Attack Controllers (ETAC) who work aligned with US Army Special Operations Forces. They provide close air support/terminal guidance control for exercise and contingency operations, on a permanent and continuous basis, with a mission to increase the combat capability of the US Forces. They also provide additional expertise in Artillery, Naval Gunfire, and Attack Helicopters.

Army:

Special Forces soldiers are carefully selected, specially trained, and capable of extended operations in extremely remote and hostile territory. They train to perform five doctrinal missions: Foreign Internal Defense (FID), Unconventional Warfare (UW), Special Reconnaissance (SR), Direct Action (DA) and Combating Terrorism (CBT). While Special Forces soldiers are capable of performing all of these missions, an increasing emphasis is being placed on FID and coalition warfare/support. FID operations are designed to help friendly developing nations by working with host country military and paramilitary forces to improve their technical skills, understanding of human rights issues, and to help with humanitarian and civic action projects.

In addition to the individual skills of operations and intelligence, communications, medical aid, engineering, and weapons, each Special Forces soldier is taught to train, advise, and assist host nation military or paramilitary forces. Special Forces soldiers are highly skilled operators, trainers, and teachers. Area-oriented, these soldiers are specially trained in their area's native language and culture.

The 1st SFOD-Delta (Delta force) is one the Federal Government's CT (Counter Terrorist) groups. Also known as CAG (Combat Applications Group) the Pentagon manages to tightly control what is known about this Unit. Their soldiers are recruited from the U.S. Army, mainly from the Special Forces Green Berets and Rangers. Their main compound is in a remote area of Fort Bragg and it is rumored that up to 2,500 personnel are present at this facility. As a counter-terrorist group, Delta's main function is in hostage rescue.

Navy:

The US Navy SEALs are America's premier naval special operations force. SEAL is an acronym for SEa, Air, and Land and highlights the arenas that SEALs can operate in. Whether the US military needs enemy ships destroyed in a fortified harbor or enemy beach defenses softened up, the SEALs stand ready to serve with their unique abilities. SEALs can swim or parachute into their area of operations and are proficient at not only underwater ops and demolitions but also reconnaissance and small-unit tactics.

While the Navy SEALs may enjoy the limelight of Naval Special Warfare, they are not the US Navy's only special warfare unit. One of the other NAVSPECWAR groups is the Special Boat Teams. The SBT's are tasked with patrolling the littoral (near shore and inter-coastal waterways) environment and the insertion, support, and extraction of special units. The SBT are equipped with small to medium boats that can perform a wide variety of tasks in environments ranging from the open sea to small twisty rivers.

The US Navy's Explosive Ordnance Disposal units primary mission is to disarm and render safe any explosive devices. Originally conceptualized as simple underwater mine disarming in WWII, their role has expanded enormously to include all conventional munitions (including limpet and undersea anti-ship mines), terrorist devices, nuclear weapons, and chemical/biological weapons. They can do so both on land and under the surface and are regularly attached to both shore or shipboard missions and duties."

link to info if you want more.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

For your information Special Operational Forces are usually regarded....

I know how they are regarded. IMO they also have about a 5-point Reputation. Sorry. Should have added that.

[Wolf]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I know how they are regarded. IMO they also have about a 5-point Reputation. Sorry. Should have added that.

 

Did you even read that? *puts head in hand* never mind, as my dad always said, "buy them books and buy them books, but all they ever do is chew on the covers."

Obviously you don’t know how they are regarded, and I quote,

Sure' date=' they have some good training, especially compared to the rest of the military, but they are regarded as expendable nonetheless. They are trained to last long enough to get the job done, and their jobs require a different skill set than merely running directly into combat, but the only individuals that are not considered expendable are high-ranking officers and weapon developers, and they don't need any particularly thorough training because they are rarely put in danger (purposefully) anyway.[/quote'] And my reply was saying that the Pentagon Regards them as having way to much money invested in them to loose as Expendable, not to the degree as most other soldiers and certainly not to the degree of some officers, even high ranking ones, who have less money invested in their training. Tank commander General- only a few million dollars, and maybe one year of war fighting experience. SF E-6 with 4 years SF training, over several Billion Dollars in spent ammunition, jet fuel, training aids, gear, hospital stays, etc. and 4 years of War fighting experience. You tell me who you’d rather pay for with your taxes, and which one is more “expendable�

Sigh. ok, martial artist are so kewl, heck I'm surprised that the military doesn’t use them... oh ya, they do.

SEAL knife training- learned from some of the master swords men from France who were outlawed in France and moved to New Orleans.

Army SF/ Rangers- now trained under and currently using the Royce Gracie style jiu-jitsu as trained to them by Gracie himself. Side note, US Army is also using the more basic, but still true to form, Gracie style of Jiu- Jitsu.

others I don't know, as most missions of other branches fall outside of many hand to had forms.

-Woof

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Did you even read that? *puts head in hand* never mind' date=' as my dad always said, "buy them books and buy them books, but all they ever do is chew on the covers."[/quote']

Nope. I didn't. Too lazy, and I've heard all the hype before. I know they have their specialized functions, and I even know what most of them are.

 

Sigh. ok, martial artist are so kewl, heck I'm surprised that the military doesn’t use them... oh ya, they do.

SEAL knife training- learned from some of the master swords men from France who were outlawed in France and moved to New Orleans.

Army SF/ Rangers- now trained under and currently using the Royce Gracie style jiu-jitsu as trained to them by Gracie himself. Side note, US Army is also using the more basic, but still true to form, Gracie style of Jiu- Jitsu.

others I don't know, as most missions of other branches fall outside of many hand to had forms.

The military learns hand-to-hand combat. Martial Arts are a way of life, and are by no means practiced by the military, whatever they may call their combat training. It entails a lot more than learning to throw a punch or kick (or use a weapon, or what have you). Even in the hand-to-hand combat aspect a soldier put through months (or even years) of training in many skills is never going to become as adept as someone who devotes a significant portion of their lifespan to Martial Arts.

 

For that matter, while most of such special teams are trained in an impressively broad range of skills, despite their, "specialized," functions, there are people who spend their entire lives in occupations that fall along similar lines. I'm sorry, but while highly trained soldiers may be good athletes, you are not going to convince me that they are better at a particular ahtletic activity than someone who has trained most of their life to go to the olympics and compete in that activity, or that they are better meteorologists than people who have gone to school for it and spent decades applying their knowledge, or better doctors than people who are practicing ER surgeons. If anything, I think they are impressive for the combination of skills they are trained in, but not for any particular expertise in one such skill, for such mastery takes a lifetime of work and experience.