Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

[Vorsch]

I ask this question because i have never used this talent and i have just reviewed a character by Enforcer who has +10 lightning reflexes for 15pts.

 

My problem was that it seemed very expensive for little effect.

 

Straight dex buy seems preferable as for 16 pt you could have +8dex and the same spd value. This gives you almost the same initiative dex plus the benifits of +2 Ocv and Dcv, if not +3.

 

Understanding that its built for DC and favoured by Steve ( take away regen and instant change replace by multi lim nightmares ) when all it is is limited dex. Two lims i can see No fig for -1/2 and grants no CV for -1/2.

 

Surely taking away CV from dex is worth more than -1/2, i mean why else buy dex?

 

A cost of 1/1pt would of seemed more reasonable. I just see no incentive the way it is similar i suppose to why HA is such a stupid purchase compared to say str no fig.

 

Just seem a step in the wrong direction, or at least a direction that steve didnt like for other powers ie regen and instant change

 

Oppinions

[MitchellS]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

No, it's not worth it. I would never buy a character with it. It's just easier to buy the extra dexterity with no figured characteristics and get the benefit of first action and CV.

[MitchellS]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I'd should add that the advantage to lightning reflexes is that in NCM games you get the additional initiative without having to pay the double cost for the dex, but since the rules say when you put an advantage or limitation on a characteristic it becomes a power heroic level characters don't need to pay double anyway.

[Vorsch]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

So is that a case of a lim being a advantage?

 

take -1/4 lim so you dont pay double.

 

Two bites at the cherry, yeah

[Mentor]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I view Lightning Reflexes and many of the other talents as a mechanism to allow greater than human specific abilities to characters whose concepts don't justify greater than human characteristics. Thus it might be more cost effective to buy DEX to simulate the ability but the character may not be able to justify the SPD or CV increases that DEX would provide.

[Vorsch]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I would merely like to see it as its built

 

Dex+X, no fig-1/2, grants no CV -1 1/2 ( okay -1/2 by the book )

 

Costs 1pt/pt but cant be abused easily in a MP, which i believe was the reasoning behing HA, rather than just cost 3/dice.

 

Dosent need to be seperate power, just a example of how Lightning Reflexes could be built. Goes with the toolkit approach that is harped on about so much. Else just start making alot of prefab powers with lims and adv built in at base cost, which is what lightning reflexes is.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

First off, I agree the utility just isn't there. This is DEX that has no figured, no CV impact and no impact on DEX skills or DEX rolls. How can it be worth only 25% less than "straight DEX" (DEX which sells back the SOD enhancement)?

 

Take this out of Supers and into NCM, and you might rightly say this is DEX, no figured (-1/2), no CV impact (-1 1/2), no DEX skills (-1) for a total of -4, or 1.5 points for each +1 bonus to go first.

 

Apply the above limitations to a non-NCM situation, and we get 3/4 points for each +1 bonus to go first. I could see that being a reasonable cost in a Supers game.

 

This is another of those abilities that probably works with doubled stat costs, but not without them. A better answer might be "if you have NCM, even limited Stats cost double if over the NCM max".

[Silbeg]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I view Lightning Reflexes and many of the other talents as a mechanism to allow greater than human specific abilities to characters whose concepts don't justify greater than human characteristics. Thus it might be more cost effective to buy DEX to simulate the ability but the character may not be able to justify the SPD or CV increases that DEX would provide.

 

Exactly!!!

 

Sometimes the most efficient construct is not the correct construct for the character.

[Force]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I view Lightning Reflexes and many of the other talents as a mechanism to allow greater than human specific abilities to characters whose concepts don't justify greater than human characteristics. Thus it might be more cost effective to buy DEX to simulate the ability but the character may not be able to justify the SPD or CV increases that DEX would provide.

 

But by doing this have you not just justified 'greater than human characteristics'?

 

I will give you some simplified examples, the dreaded Bats NCM.

 

I tried building Bats using NCM and then buying up his dex based skills, lightning reflexes, etc., ad nauseum. This was done to show that he had 'higher dex abilities' than what his stat represented.

 

I just came to the conclusion that just needing to buy these skills to represent a 'higher dex' probably justified him just having a higher dex.

 

I would say that lightning reflexes and +'s to dex based skills is ok for a +1 or +2.

 

However, if you find yourself buying more +'s to dex based skills and +'s with lighting reflex and so on, you probably ought to think that the dex you chose is simply to low.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I view Lightning Reflexes and many of the other talents as a mechanism to allow greater than human specific abilities to characters whose concepts don't justify greater than human characteristics. Thus it might be more cost effective to buy DEX to simulate the ability but the character may not be able to justify the SPD or CV increases that DEX would provide.

 

In a point based system, should not the value of the ability be reflected in the point cost? I don't see a problem with the concept of lightning reflexes. However, I fail to see why it should cost significantly more than appropriately limted DEX would (or, put another way, why the sum of all DEX-related benefits should total considerably more than 3 points per point of DEX).

[lemming]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

The way I see it, Lightning Reflexes is better in games that have a higher damage to defense ratio.

 

In a game where it's easier to stun your opponent with the first shot, it might just be worth it. In games where the opponents have the defenses to take a shot or two, those points could be better spent.

 

I'm going off of memory and general feeling, but I think the current CU has a higher damage to def ratio. (And I think Steve Long came up with the idea of Lightning Reflexes or it was I think first seen in the original Dark Champs)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I've thought Lightning Reflexes wasn't worth the cost. I basically charge 1/1 for all actions, and disallow buying it for a single action (if a man can grab his gun that fast, I don't see why he can't also grab his pencil, or just punch someone just as fast).

 

The cost should reflect the function, and you can buy almost the same amount of DEX for the same cost, then Lightning Reflexes is worthless.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I'd just like to say that I think going first is overrated. Everyone seems to think it is such an advantage, but really it matters very little except at the very beginning of combat. After that, you're all on a revolving pinwheel anyway, except when you consider being able to Abort within the same Segment, etc. When you're really worried about tactical advantages, you wind up holding your action so much anyway that, "the initiative," becomes a bit meaningless.

 

Does Lightning Reflexes add to your ability to go first during a contested contest (such as one character holding an action and attempting to act before someone else on their action)? I forget. That might be more worth it than the usual increased Dex position is.

[Vorsch]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

If i have a 4d6 rka and you have no r-defence, then going first is important.

 

Going first allows you to KB someone before they hit you.

 

If going first isint important, then it should be.

 

damn spd chart nonsence

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

If i have a 4d6 rka and you have no r-defence, then going first is important.

 

Going first allows you to KB someone before they hit you.

 

If going first isint important, then it should be.

 

damn spd chart nonsence

At the very beginning of combat, it can be a plus. Once the action has begun, define, "first." If neither of us are waiting for the other (i.e. no one is holding actions or aborting), then there is no, "first," but rather a continuous trade-off. This applies in real life, on the big screen, and in any non-random-initiave game system.

[Wolf]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Personally I use the heck out of Lightning Reflexes. Then again I also run pretty strait SF/normals games anyway. And if you have Delta Force, SEAL team 6, CQB, or SWAT personnel it can properly mimic the Violence of action during entry techniques. It is said that Delta enter the room so quickly that you never even see them coming in, And from some of the videos that I’ve watched of their training, I believe it. I think when it’s all said and done I give Delta a +15 lightning reflexes to show that element. But I don’t think their world-class Olympic gymnastics professionals either, so you let their DEX stay at 10-15, bump their OCV up by 8-10, and bump their Lightning reflexes up by 10-15 (for a CQB, Close Quarters Battle, environment only) and keeping your thugs/ terrorists (other than the big bosses, you know the CIA trained ones) at DEX 10, and DCV 5 and you get a character/ NPC that can hardly miss, and goes first upon entering a room…. And that’s what they do. Green Berets get Lightning reflexes for the quick fire drills they do, but I don’t know how useful it is when you are talking supers.

That’s my 2 coppers.

Woof

[Vorsch]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I've thought Lightning Reflexes wasn't worth the cost. I basically charge 1/1 for all actions' date=' and disallow buying it for a single action (if a man can grab his gun that fast, I don't see why he can't also grab his pencil, or just punch someone just as fast)..[/quote']

 

Thats a strange interpretation of lightning reflexes, only to grab guns?

[MitchellS]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Personally I use the heck out of Lightning Reflexes. Then again I also run pretty strait SF/normals games anyway. And if you have Delta Force, SEAL team 6, CQB, or SWAT personnel it can properly mimic the Violence of action during entry techniques. It is said that Delta enter the room so quickly that you never even see them coming in, And from some of the videos that I’ve watched of their training, I believe it. I think when it’s all said and done I give Delta a +15 lightning reflexes to show that element. But I don’t think their world-class Olympic gymnastics professionals either, so you let their DEX stay at 10-15, bump their OCV up by 8-10, and bump their Lightning reflexes up by 10-15 (for a CQB, Close Quarters Battle, environment only) and keeping your thugs/ terrorists (other than the big bosses, you know the CIA trained ones) at DEX 10, and DCV 5 and you get a character/ NPC that can hardly miss, and goes first upon entering a room…. And that’s what they do. Green Berets get Lightning reflexes for the quick fire drills they do, but I don’t know how useful it is when you are talking supers.

That’s my 2 coppers.

Woof

I personally feel that characteristic limits are over used. If you want a "normal human" character who can react before everyone else, almost always hits, and seldom gets hit himself then it just makes more sense to forego the characteristic limits and just allow the character to purchase the additional dexterity instead of lightning reflexes and handfuls of combat levels.

 

Example:

 

A 15 dex heroic level character can buy +10 dexterity with no figured characteristics [or buying back the +1 speed] which costs 35 points [due to the rules for characteristics with advantages and limitations it would really only cost 20 points]. Or he can get +10 lightning reflexes [15 points], +3 DCV levels [15 points], +3 combat levels, offense only: -1 [12 points], and +2 dexterity levels [10 points] for 52 points.

 

If the character is going to act like a 25 dexterity, 8 CV character anyway, you might as well just let him purchase the extra dex and save the 17 to 32 points to use on something else. Spending points just for the sake of spending them is stupid, IMO.

[Vorsch]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Wolf i think your emulating there ability to break into a room and shoot from surprise,or just break in and shoot.

 

What ever attributes you give these people, special ultra force , superheroes are better.

 

Well alot are, if not most. even the sidekicks

[Wolf]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I personally feel that characteristic limits are over used. If you want a "normal human" character who can react before everyone else, almost always hits, and seldom gets hit himself then it just makes more sense to forego the characteristic limits and just allow the character to purchase the additional dexterity instead of lightning reflexes and handfuls of combat levels.

 

Example:

 

A 15 dex heroic level character can buy +10 dexterity with no figured characteristics [or buying back the +1 speed] which costs 35 points [due to the rules for characteristics with advantages and limitations it would really only cost 20 points]. Or he can get +10 lightning reflexes [15 points], +3 DCV levels [15 points], +3 combat levels, offense only: -1 [12 points], and +2 dexterity levels [10 points] for 52 points.

 

If the character is going to act like a 25 dexterity, 8 CV character anyway, you might as well just let him purchase the extra dex and save the 17 to 32 points to use on something else. Spending points just for the sake of spending them is stupid, IMO.

 

Well for one, I never said Seldom get’s hit… there is no desire or need for a defense that high from a SF member, the point of their training is to move in and kill everyone before anyone can shoot back. My point was I don’t want DCV, or DEX based skills that high… it’s not realistic to the characters… however if you just buy up what they are supposed to be good at, then you get a good clean version of what I’m looking to represent… Walk into a room, fire it up, that’s it, no dodging like a John Woo movie, no ability to balance a table on your nose, just speed and shooting. Then for that atmosphere it’s a perfect talent.

-woof

[Wolf]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Wolf i think your emulating there ability to break into a room and shoot from surprise,or just break in and shoot.

 

What ever attributes you give these people, special ultra force , superheroes are better.

 

Well alot are, if not most. even the sidekicks

 

Of course supers are better, they’re supers, I was saying for a Heroic level game… and as far as the surprise thing… it’s kind of like that, and kind of not. We call it Violence of action, it’s training to enter a room with speed drills, not unlike a football team, until you can enter it quickly to take advantage of that moment of surprise… most untrained people can do it, but the #1 man (read as front man in a stack of 3) normally get’s a bullet in him, however the rest are usually able to take the room down. Delta Force are able to do this without the enemy ever firing a round… it’s beautiful to watch.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I file this, essentially, under the same category I file a whole lot of things. It's worth it to some people, not to others. If you think it's worth the points, feel free. If not? Don't.

[Vorsch]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

Can special force act in a uncontrolled enviroment faster than there dex level.

 

Otherwise its Tactics.

 

Its a gunfighter/on the Edge CyberSolo skill.

[Vondy]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

What your describing is attacking from suprise, not two people going for their guns at one time and one being inhumanly fast.

 

I would just give them a 15 DX, 4 SP, and a CV of 8-10, autofire skills, teamwork, good tactics, and some PSLs versus autofire penalties.

 

When they go in they take an unopposed segment twelve (suprise) and the team opens up using the Rapid Fire maneuver (in conjunction with autofire skills and psls) on multiple targets, while two or three of its members hold their actions, or cover anyone not hit. If some of the bad-guys are able to respond before the team hits their phase 3 action (very few will generally be speed four if we're being realistic - if any), then the guys with the held action cut them down using Rapid Fire (and those PSLs), and if the bad guys aren't able to react they take their phase right before their dex on phase 3. By the time the whole team goes commando and takes their 3 most of the badguys should be dead (its highly unlikely they would go in against bad odds in terms of numbers) and its just a matter of mop-up work.

 

If there were so many bogeys that this wouldn't work, then I humbly submit the Delta's probably wouldn't have gone in without a better plan.

 

Assuming six deltas enter a room with 12 bogeys (who the hell came up with that plan?), and four target two each, and the two remaining use their held phases before 3, targeting 1-2 each, and then all six target 1-2 (out of any remaining) each on phase 3, you should have a textbook operation with the deltas removing badguys who outnumbered them 2-1 without a return shot being fired in four seconds flat.

 

All without giving them anything remotely super-human of off the charts (like batmanesque lighting reflexes). And God help the bad guys if they were smart enough to hit the room with a flashbang before they went in.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lightning Reflexes.....is it worth it?

 

I file this' date=' essentially, under the same category I file a whole lot of things. It's worth it to some people, not to others. If you think it's worth the points, feel free. If not? Don't. [/quote']

Yeah, but I would say it isn't even really about being worth the points. That is such meta-gaming! If it fits the concept, buy it! And give yourself a Dex of 15 rather than 14, too, darn it!