How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

[MitchellS]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

While there is every reason to provide some type of time scale (if only to make Actions executable in the correct sequence)' date=' there is no real reason that the combat time scale must be fixed. It could just as easily be [i']variable[/i]; adjusted on the fly as it were to conform to the genre being played and the situation. I can't see any logical reason for a hard wall between "combat" and "non-combat" time.

 

To use the famous naval battle cited above (USS Chesapeake vs. HMS Shannon) Fourteen minutes; or 70 Turns. IIRC my naval history, the two ships pretty much just sailed side by side and pounded on each other at 50 yards just outside the harbor (The Chesapeake was essentially challenged to a duel and the entire battle was witnessed by civilians on the shore near Boston) until the Yanks struck their colors. According to my copy of Theodore Roosevelt's classic The Naval War of 1812, the Shannon was struck 158 times compared to the Chesapeake's being hit 362 times. It was a huge blow to American pride; which up until this battle had been a constant string of successes against the vaunted Royal Navy.

 

While that was all "combat time," it's crazy to assume that in order to recreate that battle or one like it in Hero one needs to play out 70 combat Turns. That could take days. Why bother, when the only relevant factors are when the ships maneuver or fire their guns; everything else can be factored in as needed for flavor (Hence a ship with a better trained crew or more maneuverability ends up with a higher SPD). I can't see any real purpose to going "OK, Chesapeake, you've fired your broadside. We'll come back to you in 7 Turns when you can fire again. Fortunately the Shannon can't fire much sooner. Are you going to perform any damage control or take your wounded below in the interval?"

Based on cannons, defense, and body no ship will survive one phase of combat let alone 14 minutes in the Hero System [12 cannons per side doing 3d6 for an average of 10.5 against 6 defense leaves 4.5 body through per hit, or 54 body per phase with the 12 cannons]. I believe the ships have 25 body.

 

Ultimately you can make a turn equal a min, or an hour, or any time period, but when you're attempting to integrate ship actions with player actions they system needs to err on the side of cinematic play. A player might need to be the one who saves the day by loading that cannon and firing it while everyone else is top-side fighting. That can't happen if it takes 90 seconds to load the cannon because the people fighting top-side will be long dead in those 6.5 turns.

 

"Scotty, we need warp speed in 3 min or we're all dead!" Unfortunately it takes Spock 5 minutes to go from the bridge to engineering. I guess they're all dead.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

I think that's the second time I have heard this. The gun crew (about a third to half of the crew) only fires the guns' date=' other members of the crew are splicing lines, carrying the wounded to the orlop, bringing up shot and powder, manning the sails, cutting away rigging, and conning the ship. There wasn't any time for real damage control until the firing stopped. A 90 second reload is a ballet of motion for the gun crew. They don't have time for anything else.[/quote']I'm assuming in most cases the PCs would be playing ship's officers rather than ordinary seamen or gunners, so they'd be giving appropriate orders in between volleys.

 

Just as a point of interest, it takes 12 seconds to load and fire a broadside from a frigate but 5 minutes to fire a trebuchet, according to Fantasy Hero. That's pretty amazing.

That's pretty stupid. There's not even a metagame rationale for it, because a trebuchet is a piece of seige equipment and is incapable of firing at moving targets anyway.

 

Twelve seconds is totally absurd. I would not allow muzzle loading cannons to fire more often than once per minute, and that's only with a crack gun crew and an officer who makes his Gunnery roll. LordGhee also pointed out to me at lunch today that naval cannon don't just need to be loaded, they also must be brought to bear (point) at the target by the movement of the ship and/or its opponent, otherwise they'll just be wasting shots at the ocean.

[CDad]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

MitchellS, I don't agree with that at all.

 

Looks to me like the vehicles as written are in error. You can fix the vehicles so that they operate closer to reality. I've known few HERO SYSTEM players that would rather have game abstraction when they could have something closer to reality.

 

You can have your Turn represent one Turn. Build the frigate so that it functions that way... here are a few examples - slow speed, extra time loading the guns, cannon with reduced penetration, extra defenses and/or body.

 

Now you can have the crew run around doing all the things that happen during a naval action on a ship that interacts with them in a realistic manner. Start off the engagement in NON-COMBAT TIME. play out the 4 hours of closing that way.

 

The ships are close enough? Battle is immanent?

 

Switch to COMBAT TIME. Fire cannon in broadside, then haul away the dead/wounded, start to reload. Turn ship. Take a few pot-shots with muskets. Perform a bit of field surgery. Fire cannons again - this time raking their sails. Pull more dead/wounded away. Start to reload. Toss grapple hooks. Board. Fight, fight fight. Repulse. If things last long enough, fire cannons again when avialable, one at a time.

 

One side is victorous? Switch back to NON-COMBAT TIME.

 

No need to "err for cinematic play".

[Ghost Archer]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Like all of you, I have been playing Champions for a very long time and you know? I all those years, I have NEVER used a vehicle in actual combat. Anything that happens involving a car or plane etc, is taken care of in a cinematic style. Who has actually done a complete car chase or dogfight or starship battle?

Sorta makes my whole question moot. I think my main problem with the '12 second broadside' is that it is a glaring inaccuracy.

[MitchellS]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

MitchellS, I don't agree with that at all.

 

Looks to me like the vehicles as written are in error. You can fix the vehicles so that they operate closer to reality. I've known few HERO SYSTEM players that would rather have game abstraction when they could have something closer to reality.

 

You can have your Turn represent one Turn. Build the frigate so that it functions that way... here are a few examples - slow speed, extra time loading the guns, cannon with reduced penetration, extra defenses and/or body.

 

Now you can have the crew run around doing all the things that happen during a naval action on a ship that interacts with them in a realistic manner. Start off the engagement in NON-COMBAT TIME. play out the 4 hours of closing that way.

 

The ships are close enough? Battle is immanent?

 

Switch to COMBAT TIME. Fire cannon in broadside, then haul away the dead/wounded, start to reload. Turn ship. Take a few pot-shots with muskets. Perform a bit of field surgery. Fire cannons again - this time raking their sails. Pull more dead/wounded away. Start to reload. Toss grapple hooks. Board. Fight, fight fight. Repulse. If things last long enough, fire cannons again when avialable, one at a time.

 

One side is victorous? Switch back to NON-COMBAT TIME.

 

No need to "err for cinematic play".

GM to player: Ok Long John, 2 minutes have gone by. What do you want to do?

 

Player to GM: What do you mean 2 minutes have gone by? I've only shot my musket once? What did I pay for the 4 speed for if I only get to attack once?

 

GM to player: Well the game needs 90 seconds to load the cannons so all the fighting on top just stops. Just assume you were carrying wounded and other such things.

 

Player to GM: WTF? Am I playing a game or are you writing a story? Long John wants to swing over and attack the Captain of the other ship and either kill him or force him to surrender.

 

GM to player: Sorry. We're playing real naval warfare here not cinematic. Maybe you can do that next week when we're playing Champions.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Like all of you, I have been playing Champions for a very long time and you know? I all those years, I have NEVER used a vehicle in actual combat. Anything that happens involving a car or plane etc, is taken care of in a cinematic style. Who has actually done a complete car chase or dogfight or starship battle?

Sorta makes my whole question moot. I think my main problem with the '12 second broadside' is that it is a glaring inaccuracy.

I concur. Vehicles for the most part are plot devices.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

GM to player: Ok Long John, 2 minutes have gone by. What do you want to do?

 

Player to GM: What do you mean 2 minutes have gone by? I've only shot my musket once? What did I pay for the 4 speed for if I only get to attack once?

 

GM to player: Well the game needs 90 seconds to load the cannons so all the fighting on top just stops. Just assume you were carrying wounded and other such things.

 

Player to GM: WTF? Am I playing a game or are you writing a story? Long John wants to swing over and attack the Captain of the other ship and either kill him or force him to surrender.

 

GM to player: Sorry. We're playing real naval warfare here not cinematic. Maybe you can do that next week when we're playing Champions.

The GM should have informed the players of this bit of trivia prior to the battle starting, not in the middle of it. Any military PC of the era would logically know this. This is an RPG, not a tactical simulation. Any player who has seen Captain Blood or Master and Commander knows sailing ships don't fire every 12 seconds and will handle the news fine if they simply know about it beforehand.

[Vondy]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

I would probably handle it thus:

 

The chase would be non-combat time with a few descriptive high-points (changing weather, the coming of nightfall, approach of possibly enemy infested waters, etc), which would require player decision and any necessary skill rolls. This would be highly abstracted.

 

Ship to Ship would managed on a literal level (Jack Aubrey's Suprise in its ultimate trim would fire a broadside roughly once per minute), but insofar as they are fighting "yard-arm-to-yard-arm" I would deal with the action in complete turns (not phases), and abstract the non-firing turns in terms of the general action of the ship (the guns are being spunged or loaded or plunged or run out, wreckage is being cleared, the wounded are being moved, lietentant so and so is gaping as able seaman so and so's corpse whose head was shorn clean off by a cannon ball, etc.), with players telling me what their characters were doing during that turn and how they were reacting to receiving fire (take cover, etc.). If the ships parted and had to maneuver we'd go back to non-combat time and decisions and skill rolls.

 

Boarding actions I'd handle in regular combat time - phase by phase.

[Vondy]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Based on cannons' date=' defense, and body no ship will survive one phase of combat let alone 14 minutes in the Hero System [12 cannons per side doing 3d6 for an average of 10.5 against 6 defense leaves 4.5 body through per hit, or 54 body per phase with the 12 cannons']. I believe the ships have 25 body.

 

Ultimately you can make a turn equal a min, or an hour, or any time period, but when you're attempting to integrate ship actions with player actions they system needs to err on the side of cinematic play. A player might need to be the one who saves the day by loading that cannon and firing it while everyone else is top-side fighting. That can't happen if it takes 90 seconds to load the cannon because the people fighting top-side will be long dead in those 6.5 turns.

 

"Scotty, we need warp speed in 3 min or we're all dead!" Unfortunately it takes Spock 5 minutes to go from the bridge to engineering. I guess they're all dead.

 

I find two things interesting here:

 

The assumption that the play must be cinematic (Captain Blood as opposed to Jack Aubrey).

 

That you ended with an example that is completely antithetical to the style of much of the Napoleanic naval fiction on the market - especially the good stuff.

 

Pirates of the Carribbean is a very fun movie to watch, and would make a very fun game to play in, but its not the only use for a Napoleanic frigate or ship of the line in a game - and some people enjoy gritty, more realistic stories and play. For some people the fantasy is in the simulation. In imagining the wooden ships and iron men in action - for me, I'd rather be Jack Aubrey than Errol Flynn.

 

True, you don't need Hero for that, but it can work.

 

I wouldn't do it phase by phase (as demonstrated by my above post on how I would do it), but I would let it take a full minute to ninety seconds to load the guns, and I wouldn't rely on the hero write-up in terms of how much punishment the ship could take (because its flat wrong). I would either give the ship significantly more total body or require it be destroyed in pieces (and come up with hits for simulating dismasting, or knocking of a spar, or ruining a gun, or jamming the rutter - all exciting cinematic happenings that give players something to do).

 

Hero has never put much emphasis on its vehicle rules and it shows.

[Susano]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

I would probably handle it thus:

 

The chase would be non-combat time with a few descriptive high-points (changing weather, the coming of nightfall, approach of possibly enemy infested waters, etc), which would require player decision and any necessary skill rolls. This would be highly abstracted.

 

Ship to Ship would managed on a literal level (Jack Aubrey's Suprise in its ultimate trim would fire a broadside roughly once per minute), but insofar as they are fighting "yard-arm-to-yard-arm" I would deal with the action in complete turns (not phases), and abstract the non-firing turns in terms of the general action of the ship (the guns are being spunged or loaded or plunged or run out, wreckage is being cleared, the wounded are being moved, lietentant so and so is gaping as able seaman so and so's corpse whose head was shorn clean off by a cannon ball, etc.), with players telling me what their characters were doing during that turn and how they were reacting to receiving fire (take cover, etc.). If the ships parted and had to maneuver we'd go back to non-combat time and decisions and skill rolls.

 

Boarding actions I'd handle in regular combat time - phase by phase.

 

This is the best way to handle it I've heard yet.

[MitchellS]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

The GM should have informed the players of this bit of trivia prior to the battle starting' date=' not in the middle of it. Any military PC of the era would logically know this. This is an RPG, not a tactical simulation. Any player who has seen [i']Captain Blood [/i] or Master and Commander knows sailing ships don't fire every 12 seconds and will handle the news fine if they simply know about it beforehand.

My point is, was, and will always be, that the ship should not be the center of attention in a PC game. The ship is a prop [and is designed to be that for the players]. The players need to be able to be heroic on that prop. If you want to run naval battles due so with either a naval-dedicated miniature battle's rules set [which will give you better and more accurate results] or with the Hero mass combat system rules. Don't take away from the PC's heroics for the sake of a prop. It should be a role-playing game for the players, IMO.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

My point is' date=' was, and will always be, that the ship should not be the center of attention in a PC game. The ship is a prop [and is designed to be that for the players']. The players need to be able to be heroic on that prop. If you want to run naval battles due so with either a naval-dedicated miniature battle's rules set [which will give you better and more accurate results] or with the Hero mass combat system rules. Don't take away from the PC's heroics for the sake of a prop. It should be a role-playing game for the players, IMO.

Agreed, but role playing involves more than just rolling dice in combat. The PCs need to overcome the challenges of the scenario, be that a faster or more heavily armed frigate or simply making good decision to outsail or outwit her. (Anybody think Lucky Jack Aubrey wasn't being heroic when he outwitted the French frigate Acheron with lanterns in Master and Commander?) Sometimes being a hero doesn't involve combat but keeping your friends and DNPCs alive to fight again under more favorable circumstances. Having things work exactly as the heroes desire lessens the challenge of the scenario and I believe ultimately reduces the level of fun.

 

A prop is the generic car your brick throws at a villain or the wagon your swashbucker knocks over to block the bridge. A sailing ship is far more than just a prop; it's a setting. I'd expect as much work to go into a Napoleonic era frigate the PCs will be manning as would be put into a supervillain's base in Champions or a castle in Fantasy Hero. And part of portraying a sailing ship is portraying the little quirks of 18th century fighting ships, like 90 second reload times. (You can always tell the players they can improve that time somewhat by constant practice.)

 

If all you're going to do is have the PCs take on an enemy frigate in hand to hand, why not save yourself a lot of trouble and just put the heroes on a raft until the enemy ship shows up?

[Fox1]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

My point is' date=' was, and will always be, that the ship should not be the center of attention in a PC game.[/quote']

 

There are people who would claim that the entire HERO system itself is something that should be avoided in a 'PC game'.

 

Don't you think it may be best to avoid telling other people what should and should not be their center of attention? Just perhaps they can make up their mind themselves and be very happy with the results.

[CDad]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

GM to player: Ok Long John, 2 minutes have gone by. What do you want to do?

 

Player to GM: What do you mean 2 minutes have gone by? I've only shot my musket once? What did I pay for the 4 speed for if I only get to attack once?

 

GM to player: Well the game needs 90 seconds to load the cannons so all the fighting on top just stops. Just assume you were carrying wounded and other such things.

 

Player to GM: WTF? Am I playing a game or are you writing a story? Long John wants to swing over and attack the Captain of the other ship and either kill him or force him to surrender.

 

GM to player: Sorry. We're playing real naval warfare here not cinematic. Maybe you can do that next week when we're playing Champions.

 

Good to see you're comfortable with the borderline smartass retort to differing opinions.

[Chromatic]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Good to see you're comfortable with the borderline smartass retort to differing opinions.

 

Nah, he just wants to show he can be pig headed, and and idiotic at the same time.

 

From reading the opinions in this thread, and historical evidence, clearly the broadside per one 12 second turn is wrong. Not only due to the number of steps needed to fire the cannons, but also due to physics: the cannons would overheat if fired that rapidly, to the point that they couldn't be reloaded without setting off the powder. Brass just doesn't have the thermal capacity to cool off.

 

Switching between non-combat and combat or allowing your 4 speed pc's to do stuff on the ships between volleys (not just carry dead/wounded, but perhaps prepare boarding hooks, or put on armor, or run from the bow to the stern of the ship) makes a lot more sense than making a turn take 5 minutes and still only giving the PC's 3 phases of action.

 

The drama will certainly be a lot more cinematic as everyone prepares for the next volley of cannon fire coming up in 3 turns, now 2 turns, now 10 segments......

 

GM: ok phase 6 you move on dex 20, the cannons are going off on dex 11 this segment. What's Long John doing?

 

LJ: using my perch on the crow's nest and the grapling hooks, I'll delay till after the cannons fire, then swing over.

[Susano]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Consider this -- if the PCs are firing pistols and rifles at the enemy as well (as the two close into boarding range), they are going to have to reload as well, and that's going to eat up, what? 4 phases? So it does balance out with the cannons to some extent.

 

Also realize that some of the guns might be firing faster (say swivel guns) so that you can't play the waiting game that exactly.

[Markdoc]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Consider this -- if the PCs are firing pistols and rifles at the enemy as well (as the two close into boarding range), they are going to have to reload as well, and that's going to eat up, what? 4 phases? So it does balance out with the cannons to some extent.

 

Also realize that some of the guns might be firing faster (say swivel guns) so that you can't play the waiting game that exactly.

 

Right. The simplest way to avoid any sort of difficulty is to give the weapons the appropriate loading times - 1-2 minutes for cannon, slightly less for rakers and swivel guns, less again for muskets. That means that at long range, the cannons fire, when you get closer, marksmen join in and when you get really close it's down to axe, sword and boarding pike, because firearms are too slow. Just like in real life, eh?

 

The idea that combat in the tops has to stop because the cannon only fires once every couple of minutes is so startlingly dim, that I must admit I never even considered it.

 

cheers, Mark