How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

[Ghost Archer]

After reading 'Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense?' thread I have to ask. How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every turn (@12 seconds)? At least according to the Vehicle Sourcebook. As I recall, a frigate that could fire three broadsides in five MINUTES was considered 'Crack'. Are we sacrificing realism to speed up the game?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

After reading 'Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense?' thread I have to ask. How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every turn (@12 seconds)? At least according to the Vehicle Sourcebook. As I recall' date=' a frigate that could fire three broadsides in five MINUTES was considered 'Crack'. Are we sacrificing realism to speed up the game?[/quote']

 

I know I am

 

It's a good question though: my 'solution' would be to adopt a more situational approach to how long a turn is: in a Napoleonic sea battle I'd be happy to let a turn stretch out to a couple of minutes until boarding was imminent.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

well... I can't say for certain about the 5th edition rules (as I've mentioned in other threads I don't have UV yet) but the 4th ed sailing rules used a time scale modifier similar to the Mass Combat rules, so a turn was a longer amount of time. Its a pretty good fix. Sailing ships manuver pretty slow, and playing out a naval engagement at normal HERO speed would take bloody forever.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

I know I am

 

It's a good question though: my 'solution' would be to adopt a more situational approach to how long a turn is: in a Napoleonic sea battle I'd be happy to let a turn stretch out to a couple of minutes until boarding was imminent.

 

Let's see . . . USS Chesapeake was taken by HMS Shannon in what? Fourteen minutes. Seventy turns . . . According to the Vehicle Resourcebook, that's 70 broadsides. Both ships would have vanished by about broadside twenty. Seventy broadsides from both ships is something like 6000 rounds.

Color me impressed. Imagine Trafalgar.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Obviously the crew of the HMS Shannon paid plenty of character points for Autofire Skills with their muzzleloading cannon, or applied their Overall Levels to reducing the time penalty for their reloads.

[Markdoc]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

The answer is the same as for the USS Iowa question.

 

Bad design.

 

The fix? Drop the reload time back to 5 minutes and let crack crews use their levels to reduce reload time (dropping it one time slot would get you down to 5 shots per 5 mins which is not too far off).

 

As to the argument that otherwise fights would take forever... um, so what? All it means is that the PC's on board a ship have a realistic amount of time to do things like get ready for boarding. It also avoids things like the players running to the fort as an enemy ship is sighted only to have 20 salvoes reduce the fort to ruins before they've covered two blocks....

 

It's not like you have to play every phase if nothing significant is happening, and if you have a player who insists you do, whap them with a marlinspike

 

cheers, Mark

[MitchellS]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

I don't think it's bad design. I just think there is a small percentage of gamers who want too much realism out of the game. When I'm watching Master and Commander I don't think about how long it takes them to reload the cannons. I'm thinking about the action within the parameters of the movie.

 

The Hero System is not designed to model reality. Everyone who thinks the game was designed to model reality is going to be sorely disappointed. The Hero System is a game of panels and cut-to scenes [phases] it's not a game that sits around measuring how much a sailor sweats while loading a cannon to determine how much grog he will need to drink after the battle to keep from being dehydrated.

 

Play the game, live the reality.

[Fox1]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

The Hero System is not designed to model reality. Everyone who thinks the game was designed to model reality is going to be sorely disappointed.

 

HERO System is a toolkit, it can be made to do any number of things including a not half bad (for rpg purposes) model of reality.

 

The phrase you're look for is not "The Hero System is not designed to model reality", it was "That ship construcion in HERO was not designed to model reality".

 

See how much better that is?

[MitchellS]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

HERO System is a toolkit, it can be made to do any number of things including a not half bad (for rpg purposes) model of reality.

 

The phrase you're look for is not "The Hero System is not designed to model reality", it was "That ship construcion in HERO was not designed to model reality".

 

See how much better that is?

No, it's not better at all, because you see, people don't really only react 2-3 time in 12 seconds. People don't run 36 feet in 1 second but only 72 feet in 12. It's not about being a toolkit, it's about being a game.

[Fox1]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

No' date=' it's not better at all, because you see, people don't really only react 2-3 time in 12 seconds. People don't run 36 feet in 1 second but only 72 feet in 12. It's not about being a toolkit, it's about being a game.[/quote']

 

That's called time abstraction, it's been part of every table-top simulation ever done. Even the most demanding wargame. It's a limit not of the design so much as of the users as we cannot process real time simulations without doing it on a computer.

 

Come back to me when you have something besides a strawman.

[MitchellS]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

That's called time abstraction, it's been part of every table-top simulation ever done. Even the most demanding wargame. It's a limit not of the design so much as of the users as we cannot process real time simulations without doing it on a computer.

 

Come back to me when you have something besides a strawman.

You're missing the point in your desire to flourish your usual rudeness. Game time is measure in minutes. A boxing round is 3 minutes long. How many game combats have you had that lasted 15 turns, let alone 200 turns of a boxing match? Damn few I'd wager.

 

The guns on ships need to be able to react within the confines of a 1 minute "real time" game combat. It would be very boring to only get to shoot the cannons once in a major naval battle due to trying to model reality. With the guns shooting once per turn you're going to get a few shots in before the battle is over. That's the difference between modeling reality and modeling the game. If a battle only lasts 1 minute then everything needs to be accelerated. Get it?

[Fox1]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

You're missing the point in your desire to flourish your usually rudeness. Game time is measure in minutes. A boxing round is 3 minutes long. How many game combats have you had that lasted 15 turns' date=' let alone 200 turns of a boxing match? Damn few I'd wager. ?[/quote']

 

And you again are missing the whole point of HERO system in your desire to... do basically nothing.

 

I haven't ran any boxing matches in my games. IF was interested in the subject I would build the characters such that a match would run the normal and expected time spans.

 

It's actually easy to do. The result would be just about as boring to me as real life matches, but it's easy to do.

 

Just like if I was interesting in an Age of Sail battle, I'd construct the ships such that I'd have a Age of Sail battle.

 

Get it yet?

[MitchellS]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

And you again are missing the whole point of HERO system in your desire to... do basically nothing.

 

I haven't ran any boxing matches in my games. IF was interested in the subject I would build the characters such that a match would run the normal and expected time spans.

 

It's actually easy to do. The result would be just about as boring to me as real life matches, but it's easy to do.

 

Just like if I was interesting in an Age of Sail battle, I'd construct the ships such that I'd have a Age of Sail battle.

 

Get it yet?

Well then you answered your own problem. You will not use the Hero System to run those types of battles, because the system doesn't work in real time and you want something that does.

[Fox1]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Well then you answered your own problem. You will not use the Hero System to run those types of battles' date=' because the system doesn't work in real time and you want something that does.[/quote']

 

Again you miss the point. I can construct realistic Boxers and Ships using HERO. The system is not preventing me from doing so, all I have to do is ignore their painfully poor examples.

[Blue]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

My explanation for how?... A Wizard did it!

 

Professor Frink: Yes, over here, m-hay, m-haven... in episode BF12, you were battling Barbarians while riding a winged apaloosa yet in the very next scene my dear, you're clearly atop a winged arabian! Please do explain it!

Lucy Lawless: Uh, yeah, well whenever you notice something like that.. a wizard did it!

Professor Frink: Yes, alright, yes, in episode AG04..

Lucy Lawless: Wizard!

[MitchellS]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Again you miss the point. I can construct realistic Boxers and Ships using HERO. The system is not preventing me from doing so' date=' all I have to do is ignore their painfully poor examples.[/quote']

The only way you can make it work is to restructure the entire Hero combat system. It takes 90 seconds to load a frigate's cannon [according to my google search]. Few Hero System combats last 7.5 turns [most don't last 5 turns]. So you either change the system making time more real, or deal with the fact that within the system you will only get 1 shot when modeling a 90 second reload, or realize that the ship design works because it's designed to model system "game time" reality rather than real time reality.

 

If the Chesapeake was taken in 14 minutes of real time that's about 9 shots. That's 9 Hero combat turns when using game time reality. It's really very simple to understand.

[MitchellS]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

The one thing that I believe Steve Long does understand [far better than most of the fans] is that Hero System combats are measured in seconds, not minutes or hours like they are in the real world. That's why things can't always model to reality. Steve Long knows that most Hero combats only last 2-6 turns and so he designs things to be able to function within those 2-6 turns. If the Hero System were designed so that combats did cover minutes or hours then I'm sure you'd see cannons with 90 second reload times rather than 1 turn reload times. But the vessels must be designed to work within the game system, and that means operating in a world of seconds rather than a world of minutes or hours.

[Fox1]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

The only way you can make it work is to restructure the entire Hero combat system.

 

No I don't. What in the wide world of sports makes you think that?

 

Just because characters would be involved in multi-phase actions is no reason to require a restructure of the entire HERO combat system. To suggest that is silly beyond belief.

[Susano]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Again you miss the point. I can construct realistic Boxers and Ships using HERO. The system is not preventing me from doing so' date=' all I have to do is ignore their painfully poor examples.[/quote']

 

Out of curiosity... In your opinion, has HERO ever done an example of anything that's not "poor"? Be it weapon, armor, vehicle, character, what have you?

[Fox1]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Out of curiosity... In your opinion' date=' has HERO ever done an example of anything that's not "poor"? Be it weapon, armor, vehicle, character, what have you?[/quote']

 

Ever seen the work done by Firebird?

 

Armory, Golden Age of Champions, Here there be Tigers?

 

Some excellent work in those with respect to weapons and vehicles although they were limited in keeping with HERO's baseline handguns.

 

There are many examples of excellent character designs- I had great fun with the old enemies books for example.

 

 

5th edition? Not so much.

[tesuji]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

 

The only way you can make it work is to restructure the entire Hero combat system.

Ok let me try this... no!

It takes 90 seconds to load a frigate's cannon [according to my google search].

Ok lets run with that. thats lets see a minute and a half, so we put for approximation sake and keeping the thing simple a limitation on cannons of "extra time: 1-2 minutes"

Few Hero System combats last 7.5 turns [most don't last 5 turns].

uhh... few HS combats of what type? Superheroes attacking each other every couple of seconds? Sure.

 

but if we were dealing with boats who could only fire once every minute or two, then the combats would last far more than the 7 turns? right?

 

Now, in fact, those turns would go very very quickly real time, since a lot of the time would be "waiting for gun to reload.

 

this would be aided if ships also had very low SPEEDS, so that the ships maneuvering was maybe once per turn as well.

 

i would guess each turn maybe took 20 seconds, many of them with nothing happening.

So you either change the system making time more real, or deal with the fact that within the system you will only get 1 shot when modeling a 90 second reload, or realize that the ship design works because it's designed to model system "game time" reality rather than real time reality.

if the intent of the hero system is to NOT GAME LINK time to turns, then wouldn't you think telling people that each segment is 1 second and a turn is 12 seconds was the WRONG way to do it?

 

As long as you dont stay wed to "combats should all resolve in game turns about the same as superhero fights do" then simply building appropriate weapons and vehicles and having a combat take 100s of turns but the same "play time to resolve" covering a lot more "in game time" is not an issue.

 

you don't have to have sailing ship cannon work like superheroes. really!

[MitchellS]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

If you're only wanting to run ship combats you can use whatever game system you want. You don't need to use the Hero System for that. Any miniature battles rules will work. But if you're wanting to integrate player actions within the ship's actions then you need a design that allows both. The current ship designs do that. The system doesn't simulate reality but it does simulate game reality.

[Fox1]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

If you're only wanting to run ship combats you can use whatever game system you want. You don't need to use the Hero System for that. Any miniature battles rules will work. But if you're wanting to integrate player actions within the ship's actions then you need a design that allows both. The current ship designs do that. The system doesn't simulate reality but it does simulate game reality.

 

Just keep saying that and ignoring the actual rules and reality. I'm sure it's buying you... well something.

 

Myself, I'll be fat and happy running Ship to Ship actions with 90 second reload times in HERO using nothing but the rules given in the book.

[Markdoc]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

If you're only wanting to run ship combats you can use whatever game system you want. You don't need to use the Hero System for that. Any miniature battles rules will work. But if you're wanting to integrate player actions within the ship's actions then you need a design that allows both. The current ship designs do that. The system doesn't simulate reality but it does simulate game reality.

 

I'm afraid I just don't get this.

 

OK, so the ships are shooting at each other every 1-2 minutes. That's good. The players (who are on the ships) are in the meantime hauling away the wounded, putting out fires, getting their gear ready for a boarding action or standing on the poop deck shouting commands. So what on earth does this "the combat's over and the guns have only fired once" mean? Sure, the guns have fired once, the players are all still alive (assuming no-one's been cut in half by a cannonball) and the ships are still sailing. A couple of minutes later the guns fire again. Doesn't sound like the combat's over to me.

 

Combat can take anything from a few seconds to a couple of months: I've run a siege in my game which lasted several weeks. I had no problem with the fact that the seige weapons being used, fired about once very 5 minutes, or that it took the players a day to make ladders....

 

The game system works just fine to incorporate actions of different length and I have never needed to use something as ridiculous as a 12 second reloading time for a cannon.

 

cheers, Mark

[tesuji]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

 

If you're only wanting to run ship combats you can use whatever game system you want.

of course we can but what most of us seem to be discussing is using hero system in an rpg to resolve ship actions that come up during such.

 

an example might be a pirates game where ship-to-ship combat may be going on while boarding actions are or flow directly from such.

 

Most of us seem to think/know that we dont need superheroic cannon loading times in order to make this work, but rather just need to use the system to design more reasonable cannons.

 

your guys may be different but i know 12 second reloads would knock the scene off its hinges for many of my players.

You don't need to use the Hero System for that. Any miniature battles rules will work. But if you're wanting to integrate player actions within the ship's actions then you need a design that allows both.

that would be the HERo system, with reasonable choices for vehicle/weapon stats.

The current ship designs do that. The system doesn't simulate reality but it does simulate game reality.

 

if the game reality includes superheroic cannon reloading, i guess you are correct. but, of course, they don't need to.

 

if your pistols and rifles take say a turn to reload and are relatively inaccurate, the cannons take a minute or two, the vehicles are speed 1 maybe 2, and most participants are speed 2 with a few maybe at 3... then turns should pass quickly even with boarding actions and you won't need superspeedy cannons.

 

well, i won't.