How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Yeah,. Slow rates of fire are limitations on the cannons. PC's will be acting dozens of time inbetween shots. Sure. What this means, in game terms:

 

Combat will have a LOT of waiting around while the ships close. Or, more likely, people will help load the cannons and do other things like it.

 

Boarding Actions will be mostly resolved before a cannon can shoot twice.

 

 

Don't really see the problem there. That's what happens when the Heroes are involved in a sea battle...

[Old Man]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

The one thing that I believe Steve Long does understand [far better than most of the fans] is that Hero System combats are measured in seconds' date=' not minutes or hours like they are in the real world. That's why things can't always model to reality. Steve Long knows that most Hero combats only last 2-6 turns and so he designs things to be able to function within those 2-6 turns. If the Hero System were designed so that combats did cover minutes or hours then I'm sure you'd see cannons with 90 second reload times rather than 1 turn reload times. But the vessels must be designed to work within the game system, and that means operating in a world of seconds rather than a world of minutes or hours.[/quote']

 

Just let it go man, some people don't get it.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

if the game reality includes superheroic cannon reloading, i guess you are correct. but, of course, they don't need to.

 

if your pistols and rifles take say a turn to reload and are relatively inaccurate, the cannons take a minute or two, the vehicles are speed 1 maybe 2, and most participants are speed 2 with a few maybe at 3... then turns should pass quickly even with boarding actions and you won't need superspeedy cannons.

 

well, i won't.

 

This probably captures my problem with the whole idea of a 1 turn reload. Everything seems to be gear toward the Superhero. I can see a superhero reloading a cannon in a turn, after all it takes about six actions for a reload.

 

1. The cannon is back from the recoil after the first shot, so drawing cannon back from the port doesn't count after the first round.

 

2. I think worming the cannon to remove anything left from the last charge is next.

 

3. Swab the barrel.

 

4. Ram in the new charge.

 

5. Ram in the cannonball.

 

6. Run out the gun.

 

7. Fire.

 

Of course it usually takes an extra person to 'tend the vent' but a speed 6 Super could manage after the first round is fired.

 

A NORMAL, on the other hand . . . following those steps at speed 2 will take considerably more time. Also it would take a couple of phases just to run out a few tons of cannon even with block and tackle.

 

Hmm . . . say seven steps, with three extra phases for run out . . . come to a much more logical minute or so. Some steps might require a bit more time so a minute and a half for a 'normal' works for me, if you break each action of a reload down.

 

Sorta suggests HERO is still pretty much Champions oriented still.

[Vanguard00]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Just out of curiosity, why is it that when it comes to discussing rule builds most everyone jumps on the "Hero System lets you do what you want" wagon, but when it comes to specific examples, everyone bitches? So you think the Iowa is tougher than it says in the book. Well, make it tougher. So you think frigates can't fire their cannons as fast as DoJ says...well, slow 'em down. How hard is this? It's not like anyone is forcing you to take something as canon--everything about the Hero System is designed to be malleable, including character/ship/weapon builds. Don't like what you see? Change it. Why bitch about it when it doesn't happen that often?

 

Cripes. Some people would bitch if they were hung with a new rope...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Just out of curiosity, why is it that when it comes to discussing rule builds most everyone jumps on the "Hero System lets you do what you want" wagon, but when it comes to specific examples, everyone bitches? So you think the Iowa is tougher than it says in the book. Well, make it tougher. So you think frigates can't fire their cannons as fast as DoJ says...well, slow 'em down. How hard is this? It's not like anyone is forcing you to take something as canon--everything about the Hero System is designed to be malleable, including character/ship/weapon builds. Don't like what you see? Change it. Why bitch about it when it doesn't happen that often?

 

Cripes. Some people would bitch if they were hung with a new rope...

 

Well, you would adjust it, and I do (or I would, anyway). That doesn't make the 'by the book' version any more accurate in my eyes (or anyone else's).

 

We tend to to expect "by the book" to back up the way we do things, not least because for the purposes of internet debate we're stuck with them as the baseline. With an official DEF rating for something you _have_ to accept that as it is for any usage outside your own playgroup.

 

Also, people do tend to use the book value unless they have a reason not to. And while anyone complaining is unlikely to use the book value, that doesn't mean other people won't.

[Vanguard00]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Well, you would adjust it, and I do (or I would, anyway). That doesn't make the 'by the book' version any more accurate in my eyes (or anyone else's).

 

We tend to to expect "by the book" to back up the way we do things, not least because for the purposes of internet debate we're stuck with them as the baseline. With an official DEF rating for something you _have_ to accept that as it is for any usage outside your own playgroup.

 

Also, people do tend to use the book value unless they have a reason not to. And while anyone complaining is unlikely to use the book value, that doesn't mean other people won't.

I understand that it's preferred. I'm just saying that mistakes can be made just about anywhere. The system more or less allows for that in its adaptability. It seems like such a non-issue to get so worked up about.

 

To each their own, I suppose.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Just out of curiosity, why is it that when it comes to discussing rule builds most everyone jumps on the "Hero System lets you do what you want" wagon, but when it comes to specific examples, everyone bitches? So you think the Iowa is tougher than it says in the book. Well, make it tougher. So you think frigates can't fire their cannons as fast as DoJ says...well, slow 'em down. How hard is this? It's not like anyone is forcing you to take something as canon--everything about the Hero System is designed to be malleable, including character/ship/weapon builds. Don't like what you see? Change it. Why bitch about it when it doesn't happen that often?

 

Cripes. Some people would bitch if they were hung with a new rope...

Perhaps you misunderstand why some of us bring it up (I can't speak for everyone, but it certainly applies in my case). Its not that we feel compelled to bitch about way certain things are written up when they don't reflect reality. Sure we could fix the problem in our games. Its more a matter of wanting to spark discussion, see how other people do it, and point out the occasional absurdity for folk to ponder, especially if they don't have as much RL knowlegde of a subject and might be confused by poorly done "official" examples.

Incedentally, I think that Age of Sail ship combat would and should mostly be done in platoon level battle scale (from FH Mass combat rules) 90 second turns for manuvering and ranged combat, then dialate to normal time scale for close action. then 1 turn cannon reloads hit just right, small arems fire from marines can be conducted each phase instead of each turn and the ships move in a more realistic faashion. Bam. its all good. And gunners should be able to "rapid" fire cannon for 2 shots in that time period at a substantial penalties to the activation roll on the cannons and greatly increased chance of side effects. In an emergency, you can skip the worming and swabbing( which accounts for about half of the realoding time), but you greatly increase the risk with each subsequent shot of a catastrophic malfunction. *BOOM*

And yes, I have done gunnery drills with muzzleloading 16th century falconets... we used to have 3 of them for our battle reenactments. So I'm not completely speaking out of my butt here.

[garou]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

The Hero System is a game of panels and cut-to scenes [phases] it's not a game that sits around measuring how much a sailor sweats while loading a cannon to determine how much grog he will need to drink after the battle to keep from being dehydrated.

 

One pint in temperate climates, two pints in the tropics. Add one if the fight runs longer than 15 minutes, and one if the sailor is on the victorious side.

[LordGhee]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

But New Rope is so scratchy!

[Vanguard00]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Perhaps you misunderstand why some of us bring it up (I can't speak for everyone' date=' but it certainly applies in my case). Its not that we feel compelled to bitch about way certain things are written up when they don't reflect reality. Sure we could fix the problem in our games. Its more a matter of wanting to spark discussion, see how other people do it, and point out the occasional absurdity for folk to ponder, especially if they don't have as much RL knowlegde of a subject and might be confused by poorly done "official" examples.[/quote']

Actually, discussion and debate I don't mind. Arguing and bitching for their own sake is what always gets me. Some people just seem to feel the need to take it to a whole new level (up or down, you decide).

[Vondy]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

The answer is that it can't. A "crack" frigate would generally fire 3 broadsides in 5 minutes, but there are some records of a broadside every 50-60 seconds (this would require a crack crew of professional seamen that trained together for some time and had a captain who could expend his own money on powder (the royal navy limited how much powder from naval stores a captain could use), which would entail a frigate as opposed to a ship of the line as frigate captains were the ones who received "cruises" and had the opportunity to reap hordes of prize money (though and eighth would trickle up to the local port-captain or resident admiral if they were sailing under said officers orders).

 

With that said: the debate of whether one wants to abstract turns in terms of length, or leave their length absolute and only focus on phases where actual firing occurs (assuming other phases are used to clear damage, move the wounded, run shot and powder, etc) is completely a matter of taste and arguing about it accomplishes nothing.

[Susano]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

But New Rope is so scratchy!

 

I prefer Classic Rope myself.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

I prefer Classic Rope myself.

Hang me with a Cherry Rope Myself,

Hemp is soooo outre'

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

With that said: the debate of whether one wants to abstract turns in terms of length' date=' or leave their length absolute and only focus on phases where actual firing occurs (assuming other phases are used to clear damage, move the wounded, run shot and powder, etc) is completely a matter of taste and arguing about it accomplishes nothing.[/quote']

 

Some people do wish additional input to clarify an issue, while others simply enjoy the mental exercise of debating, which could be considered an accomplishment in itself.

 

Still other people, though, perceive what they believe to be the "correct" way of looking at things, and attempt to promote that way. I remember reading studies of personalities, apparently quite common, that organize their relationship to the world according to what is selfevidently correct to them, and therefore have difficulty allowing for contrary opinions of correctness. I'm not saying that that applies to anyone here, of course.

 

I actually like the mass-combat-time solution that AmadanNaBriona has put forward. It resolves the apparent inconsistency via an option already within the HERO System, that doesn't require changes to any vehicle writeups.

[Vondy]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

 

Still other people, though, perceive what they believe to be the "correct" way of looking at things, and attempt to promote that way. I remember reading studies of personalities, apparently quite common, that organize their relationship to the world according to what is selfevidently correct to them, and therefore have difficulty allowing for contrary opinions of correctness. I'm not saying that that applies to anyone here, of course.

 

This is the personality type my comment was addressed to...

 

I'm all for new ideas, and an honest discussion of their strengths, weaknesses, and how they can be best implemented. What I'm not for is the "submit to the one true Hero - my Hero!" routine.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

With that said: the debate of whether one wants to abstract turns in terms of length' date=' or leave their length absolute and only focus on phases where actual firing occurs (assuming other phases are used to clear damage, move the wounded, run shot and powder, etc) is completely a matter of taste and arguing about it accomplishes nothing.[/quote']I still find it helps, especially in unusual situations like this, to just say that each Hero system Phase represents a single frame in a comic rather than a specific unit of time measured in milliseconds. Thus, a crack frigate is firing about once per page or so. I'd either just narrate that bit, or tell the players each Turn represents 5 minutes until they enter melee; so they'd better get their ship ready for action.

 

Naval battle in the age of sail could last many hours or even days. In Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World (the movie) the officers of HMS Surprise were watching the French frigate pursuing them. "How long until they overtake us?" "I'd say no more than four hours." Who'd want to play out all 1200 Turns/4800 Phases of that anyway?

[Fox1]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

I'm all for new ideas' date=' and an honest discussion of their strengths, weaknesses, and how they can be best implemented. What I'm not for is the "submit to the one true Hero - my Hero!" routine.[/quote']

 

The main line of debate here was not a "subimt to the one true HERO" deal.

 

It was a "HERO CAN'T do" this vs. a "HERO can easy do this". There was no judgement on my behalf of what anyone should do in their game. I don't play in the games of other people and frankly don't care.

[Vondy]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Naval battle in the age of sail could last many hours or even days. In Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World (the movie) the officers of HMS Surprise were watching the French frigate pursuing them. "How long until they overtake us?" "I'd say no more than four hours." Who'd want to play out all 1200 Turns/4800 Phases of that anyway?

 

The movie was good, the books are better. I just finished number 15. And four hours is a relatively short chase...

[Trebuchet]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

The movie was good' date=' the books are better. I just finished number 15. And four hours is a relatively short chase...[/quote']I've only read up to #12. Yes, the books are better, but the movie still did a tremendous job of capturing the feel of both the books and the era. I bought the film on DVD the day it came out.

 

Who'd want to roleplay a four hour chase in 12 second Turns?

[tesuji]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Who'd want to roleplay a four hour chase in 12 second Turns?

 

probably no one, anymore than someone would want to play out by 12 second turns the 10 minutes it takes your hero to fly across the city to get to the latest villain bash-em-up.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

probably no one' date=' anymore than someone would want to play out by 12 second turns the 10 minutes it takes your hero to fly across the city to get to the latest villain bash-em-up.[/quote']Precisely my point. Superheroes have a time compression; so what's wrong with applying one to Napoleonic combat as well? Why does anyone worry about how long a Turn is in real time? The only thing relevant to characters is how many individual actions they can take per Turn, so it hardly matters if that Turn is measured in the microseconds of combat in cyberspace, the split-second shock of tanks and missiles on a modern battlefield, or the vastly slower but no less deadly pace of combat with sailing ships. I'm pretty certain it's going to feel plenty fast enough to the characters in danger.

 

The only correct answer to the thread's title question "How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?" is "Because Napoleonic era frigates can fire one broadside per Turn." How long is that Turn in microseconds? Who cares?

[Fox1]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

The only correct answer to the thread's title question "How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?" is "Because Napoleonic era frigates can fire one broadside per Turn." How long is that Turn in microseconds? Who cares?

 

"only correct answer"?

 

Sorry, there is never an only correct answer to a question like that. A few moments thoughts can give you highly important reasons for needing to know how long a turn is.

[tesuji]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Precisely my point. Superheroes have a time compression; so what's wrong with applying one to Napoleonic combat as well? Why does anyone worry about how long a Turn is in real time? The only thing relevant to characters is how many individual actions they can take per Turn, so it hardly matters if that Turn is measured in the microseconds of combat in cyberspace, the split-second shock of tanks and missiles on a modern battlefield, or the vastly slower but no less deadly pace of combat with sailing ships. I'm pretty certain it's going to feel plenty fast enough to the characters in danger.

 

Wow, for a monent, i actually thought we were both on the same page.

 

So, let me explain what i thought was obvious.

 

neither the superhero game, where a turn in combat is 12 seconds, nor the naval game, are cases where long travel is played out in turns.

 

These are examples of NON-COMBAT TIME.

 

page 226 of HERO-5e (Not 5er) goes into non-combat time and combat time and the differences.

 

it goes into quite some detail about how combat time is measured in second by second exacting detail while non-combat time is more abstract.

 

So the four hour approach is non-combat time, which can be resolved abstractly in minutes, but the fight scene is combat time, which is measured more exactly.

 

So, to be specific in my point...

 

having combat time by the rules played out in seconds by seconds does not mean you then are somehow oblidged to have the four hour approach meted out that way as well. The syatem already provides for rapid run thru in non-combat time just fine with no monkey business needed.

 

So the four hour approach done in a few scenes lickety split is fine with the RAW as is the actualy combat once they arrive being done second by second.

 

And, as already stated, if the ships and cannon were written up to reflect it, the reload time of guns could be just as easily handled within the rules too. there really was no need to write up superhero-speed-loading cannons.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Wow, for a monent, i actually thought we were both on the same page.

 

So, let me explain what i thought was obvious.

 

neither the superhero game, where a turn in combat is 12 seconds, nor the naval game, are cases where long travel is played out in turns.

 

These are examples of NON-COMBAT TIME.

 

page 226 of HERO-5e (Not 5er) goes into non-combat time and combat time and the differences.

 

it goes into quite some detail about how combat time is measured in second by second exacting detail while non-combat time is more abstract.

 

So the four hour approach is non-combat time, which can be resolved abstractly in minutes, but the fight scene is combat time, which is measured more exactly.

 

So, to be specific in my point...

 

having combat time by the rules played out in seconds by seconds does not mean you then are somehow oblidged to have the four hour approach meted out that way as well. The syatem already provides for rapid run thru in non-combat time just fine with no monkey business needed.

 

So the four hour approach done in a few scenes lickety split is fine with the RAW as is the actualy combat once they arrive being done second by second.

 

And, as already stated, if the ships and cannon were written up to reflect it, the reload time of guns could be just as easily handled within the rules too. there really was no need to write up superhero-speed-loading cannons.

While there is every reason to provide some type of time scale (if only to make Actions executable in the correct sequence), there is no real reason that the combat time scale must be fixed. It could just as easily be variable; adjusted on the fly as it were to conform to the genre being played and the situation. I can't see any logical reason for a hard wall between "combat" and "non-combat" time.

 

To use the famous naval battle cited above (USS Chesapeake vs. HMS Shannon) Fourteen minutes; or 70 Turns. IIRC my naval history, the two ships pretty much just sailed side by side and pounded on each other at 50 yards just outside the harbor (The Chesapeake was essentially challenged to a duel and the entire battle was witnessed by civilians on the shore near Boston) until the Yanks struck their colors. According to my copy of Theodore Roosevelt's classic The Naval War of 1812, the Shannon was struck 158 times compared to the Chesapeake's being hit 362 times. It was a huge blow to American pride; which up until this battle had been a constant string of successes against the vaunted Royal Navy.

 

While that was all "combat time," it's crazy to assume that in order to recreate that battle or one like it in Hero one needs to play out 70 combat Turns. That could take days. Why bother, when the only relevant factors are when the ships maneuver or fire their guns; everything else can be factored in as needed for flavor (Hence a ship with a better trained crew or more maneuverability ends up with a higher SPD). I can't see any real purpose to going "OK, Chesapeake, you've fired your broadside. We'll come back to you in 7 Turns when you can fire again. Fortunately the Shannon can't fire much sooner. Are you going to perform any damage control or take your wounded below in the interval?"

[Ghost Archer]

Re: How can an Napoleonic Era frigate fire a broadside every 12 seconds?

 

Are you going to perform any damage control or take your wounded below in the interval?"

 

I think that's the second time I have heard this. The gun crew (about a third to half of the crew) only fires the guns, other members of the crew are splicing lines, carrying the wounded to the orlop, bringing up shot and powder, manning the sails, cutting away rigging, and conning the ship. There wasn't any time for real damage control until the firing stopped. A 90 second reload is a ballet of motion for the gun crew. They don't have time for anything else.

 

Just as a point of interest, it takes 12 seconds to load and fire a broadside from a frigate but 5 minutes to fire a trebuchet, according to Fantasy Hero. That's pretty amazing.