Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

[Gummibear]

Long request-please read all before angry replies begin to fly.

 

Ok, heres one that a GURPS player that I am bringing over to the dark side...er to the way of clarification and true "Universal Roleplaying in one book," has asked me. If this is answered in another thread please post the link. I looked and didn't really find anything that fit.

 

The character (Anastasia) has a forcefield that she can place on others in the group(yep, you guessed it, COH port ). The FF is 0 End, and is on until she is knocked unconscious, at which point it gets, well, different. At that point the FF gains an ablative activation roll that goes down with every one of Ana's normal phases. So example:

Ana has a 3 speed. She gives the FF to another PC on 4 then promptly gets knocked out. On phase 8 PC has a 15- roll to activate the FF, on 12 a 14-, on 4 a 13-, 8 a 12-, and 12 a 11- and so forth to 8- at which point the power goes off. If any activation roll is missed then the power turns off. (This is the general gist of it, if I messed up on a basic mechanic try not to get locked up on that and look for the spirit of the question.)

 

So in trying to build this I have come up with a FF 10PD/10ED, End to 0, Limited Power(partially) -1/4. The problem I am having is that it is not always ablative so its a partially limited power. However the limitation on 15- activation is 1/4 and I would normally cut that in half, because it is only limiting when unconscious. Even though that may be high for some, since it is actually less limiting than half the time, it is what I am ending with. The dilemna is that half of 1/4 is 1/8 and is therefore no limitation whatsoever. However the argument is that there should be some limitation, so I'm ending up with a 1/4 limitation. The problems arise from this:

 

I don't want to use the universal "limited power." I am trying to show this player that for most mechanics there is a rule already.

 

The player is a GURPS player and I fairly consistently get the "in GURPS we would just..." Now what were talking about is a fairly small bonus (like -1 point), but it is a "savings."

 

Some of the things I have discussed

1. This is not all that limiting so it should be worth basically no limitation

However the character has been knocked out several times.

2. THis is a SFX and it should therefore be treated as such since it is not that limiting. Response is then that since this is actually limiting(due to point 1 above) then it should be a saving.

 

Responses to some of the flames

This is not a player that usually looks for min/max freebie points. Thus far he has been very fair about applying limitations and spending points, sometimes to the point of spending more for something than he needs to. So please do not shoot off a quick "its a SFX and he shouldn't be such a munchkin! Tell him to go play some other game if he wants to min/max!" Not only is this not true, but its also not helpful to my cause of taking over the gaming world with my favorite system for the last 25 years.

 

Is this maybe just a 1-5 point adder before limitations/EC bonus is applied? IF you think this please defend your position.

 

I have thought this one out and I would like a little input.

Help Hero Board Kenobi, you're my only hope....

[Steve Long]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

Since this seems to be a request for "how to build" help and not really a rules question, I've moved it to the "Discussion" board so that any Hero fan who likes can respond.

 

If you think you've got some rules questions arising out of the situation, you're welcome to post again on the "5E Rules Questions" board, or to write me directly at SteveL@herogames.com.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

What you're wanting to do is very unique -- you're going to have to use a custom Limitation. But here goes:

 

44 Force Field (10 PD/10 ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 4 people at once; +3/4) (55 Active Points); 15- Reducing Activation Roll, Only While Anastasia is Unconscious (-1/4)

 

OR:

 

32 Force Field (10 PD/10 ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (40 Active Points); 15- Reducing Activation Roll, Only While Anastasia is Unconscious (-1/4)

 

 

That's my $0.02

[prestidigitator]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

What you're wanting to do is very unique -- you're going to have to use a custom Limitation. But here goes:

 

44 Force Field (10 PD/10 ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 4 people at once; +3/4) (55 Active Points); 15- Reducing Activation Roll, Only While Anastasia is Unconscious (-1/4)

 

OR:

 

32 Force Field (10 PD/10 ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (40 Active Points); 15- Reducing Activation Roll, Only While Anastasia is Unconscious (-1/4)

I don't think it's all that unique. Just add Persistent to the Power, and only apply the Ablative Limitation to the Persistent Advantage.

 

So, because I'm lazy and I'd rather just make something up rather than use a real example, let's say the FF has a 20-point Base Cost, and a total of +2 Advantages other than Persistent (but including Reduced End Cost, Usable by Others, etc.). Break the cost into that of the Persistent Advantage (20 * 1/2 = 10 APs) and the base Power plus normal Advantages (20 * 3 = 60). Apply the Ablative Limitation to the 10 APs in the Persistent Advantage, and add it to the real cost of the rest of the Power. Basically the mechanical arithmetic works just like buying a Naked Advantage, except that it is not a Naked Advantage, but rather still applies directly to the specific Power.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

I don't want to use the universal "limited power." I am trying to show this player that for most mechanics there is a rule already.

 

FYI: Limited Power is perfectly legitimate. Part of the flexibility of the Hero System is that you have this Limitation.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

It looks like prestidigitator and I are thinking alike again.

 

Basically, you'd just buy the FF how it would work on any character, including the UBO Advantage. Then you'd buy a Naked Advantage (Persistant), which keeps the FF working while Ana is unconscious (you have to use Persistant, otherwise it automatically shuts off at the end of the Segment she's KO's or Stunned). On the Naked Advantage, you buy the activation roll version of Ablative, probably at 1/4 less value as it only applies once she's unconscious.

 

Example:

 

68

(Total: 68 Active Cost, 68 Real Cost) FF (10 PD/10 ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1) (50 Active Points) (Real Cost: 50) plus Persistent (+1/2); Ablative (activation roll is rolled and reduced each of the character's Phases; -1) for up to 50 Active Points of FF, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (18 Active Points) (Real Cost: 18)

0

[SteveZilla]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?{EDIT}I forgot to add Useable On Others to the second power build I suggested. Without it, the Force Field can't be given to anybody else. {/EDIT}

I don't think it's all that unique. Just add Persistent to the Power' date=' and only apply the Ablative Limitation to the Persistent Advantage.[/quote']Just because it's simple to do doesn't change it's uniqueness. ;)You weren't referring to the Ablative Limitation for Defenses (p 77 in 5th ed, first version), were you? While it may seem similar, it functions differently from what GummiBear wants. And to build it in Hero Designer, we'd have to use a Custom Modifier.Also, after thinking about it, I agree that the Limitation in question only limits the Persistent (or Uncontrolled) Advantage, and not the full power.And about Persistent vs Uncontrolled: I think it depends upon the flavor you want. Uncontrolled means the character isn't limited to how many she could give the power to -- just how many with a single action. It also means that the power *must* have "a reasonably common and obvious set of circumstances which will turn it off." Which could circumvent the "Activation Roll Countdown Lim". Uncontrolled means you don't have to keep that slot on a Multipower or Variable Power Pool active once it's given.Persistent: Doesn't have the "reasonably common and obvious" problem, and doesn't let the character exceed the # of targets bought with Useable On Others. It also means that if this power is in a non-Elemental Control framework, the character can't switch those points out of that slot without all tagets loosing the power.

So' date=' because I'm lazy and I'd rather just make something up rather than use a real example, let's say the FF has a 20-point Base Cost, and a total of +2 Advantages other than Persistent (but including Reduced End Cost, Usable by Others, etc.). Break the cost into that of the Persistent Advantage (20 * 1/2 = 10 APs) and the base Power plus normal Advantages (20 * 3 = 60). Apply the Ablative Limitation to the 10 APs in the Persistent Advantage, and add it to the real cost of the rest of the Power. Basically the mechanical arithmetic works just like buying a Naked Advantage, except that it is not a Naked Advantage, but rather still applies directly to the specific Power.[/quote']It might be easier for some to do the math as if Persistent were a Naked Advantage with the "Ablative" Lim as well as any lims the "rest of the" power has. Then just add the Active & Real Costs for it back into the rest of the Power's Active & Real Costs.

For example:

Active Cost	Power	Real Cost
50	Force Field (10 PD/10 ED), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1) (50 Active Points)	50
10	Persistent (+1/2)(on Force Field +10 PD/+10 ED)(10 Active Points) - Reducing Activation Roll, Only When Anastasia is Unconscious (-1/2)	7

So, the whole thing has 60 Active Points, and costs 57 Real Points.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

The trick with using a Naked Advantage is that you must apply it to the entire Active Cost of the Power it's to apply to. i.e.: if the FF is 50 Active Points, the Persistant NA must apply to a 50 AP FF (base of 25 points, rather than 10).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

Just because it's simple to do doesn't change it's uniqueness.

I guess I was viewing the uniqueness of the situation from the point of view of the kind of thing being attempted (applying Limitations to one aspect of a power construct), not the actual power.

 

You weren't referring to the Ablative Limitation for Defenses (p 77 in 5th ed, first version), were you? While it may seem similar, it functions differently from what GummiBear wants. And to build it in Hero Designer, we'd have to use a Custom Modifier.

Err, I guess it does differ a bit, upon further inspection. I'd probably call this one like 1/4 to 1/2 more of a Limitation since it happens whenever the defense is used, rather than only when it is overcome. Also, I guess it sounds like this happens at activation rather than when the character is hit with an attack? Hmm. Maybe 1/4 to 1/2 less of a Limitation? It sounds reasonable that the two differences should cancel out.

 

It might be easier for some to do the math as if Persistent were a Naked Advantage with the "Ablative" Lim as well as any lims the "rest of the" power has. Then just add the Active & Real Costs for it back into the rest of the Power's Active & Real Costs.

As I said, that is basically the way I did the math. It's just that the Advantage applies normally to the Base Cost of the Power rather than the Active Points (thank you, Dust Raven), and isn't a Naked Advantage in that it only (and always, if that's the way you choose to view Advantages) applies to the one Power (not any old Power the character decides to apply it to).

[SteveZilla]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

The trick with using a Naked Advantage is that you must apply it to the entire Active Cost of the Power it's to apply to. i.e.: if the FF is 50 Active Points' date=' the Persistant NA must apply to a 50 AP FF (base of 25 points, rather than 10).[/quote']

 

I don't have the revied 5th ed rulebook yet, and the revised version's FAQ doesn't mention this. So I am left to presume that the "old" FAQ is still in force. It states:

 

Characters calculate the cost of a naked Advantage for only one power differently. In that case' date=' recalculate the cost of the base power with the naked Advantage. After you have that new cost, subtract the cost of the base power to determine the cost of the naked Advantage. All Advantages and Limitations applicable to the base power automatically apply to/function with the naked Advantage, but do not alter its cost.[/quote']

 

I also made an error. I presumed that Limitations would carry over and reduce the Naked Advantage's cost (although in the case being discussed, the power has no "overall" Limitations). But Limitations specifically applied to the Naked Advantage still reduce it's cost.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

The trick with using a Naked Advantage is that you must apply it to the entire Active Cost of the Power it's to apply to. i.e.: if the FF is 50 Active Points' date=' the Persistant NA must apply to a 50 AP FF (base of 25 points, rather than 10).[/quote']

 

I assume you're referring to a Force Field modified by other Advantages in addition to the Naked one. If that's the case, what you're describing only applies if the Naked Advantage would be usable on more than one Power. If it modifies only the Force Field, you'd derive the cost of the Naked Advantage by recalculating the Active Point cost of the Power with that Advantage added to it, then subtracting the cost of the Power without that Advantage; the remainder would be the Naked Advantage cost.

 

Note that whichever method you use, the Naked Advantage is always Instant even if it applies to a Constant Power like a Force Field, unless you buy Continuous for the NA (or the GM grants an exception).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

..snip...

 

Note that whichever method you use, the Naked Advantage is always Instant even if it applies to a Constant Power like a Force Field, unless you buy Continuous for the NA (or the GM grants an exception).

 

So I guess the writeup of Swift Sight (Megascale on Normal Sight) in USPD on page 205 is built with such an exception? And it also handwaves the END cost of this new ability as well!

 

(Building it via HD and getting close to the same cost required a strange workaround.)

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

I assume you're referring to a Force Field modified by other Advantages in addition to the Naked one. If that's the case, what you're describing only applies if the Naked Advantage would be usable on more than one Power. If it modifies only the Force Field, you'd derive the cost of the Naked Advantage by recalculating the Active Point cost of the Power with that Advantage added to it, then subtracting the cost of the Power without that Advantage; the remainder would be the Naked Advantage cost.

 

Note that whichever method you use, the Naked Advantage is always Instant even if it applies to a Constant Power like a Force Field, unless you buy Continuous for the NA (or the GM grants an exception).

 

Ah, I don't have 5ER myself and have only been working off of what other people have said on the boards. Thanks for the correction.

 

That might make this ability way too cheep though, but I could be wrong.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

Ah, I don't have 5ER myself and have only been working off of what other people have said on the boards. Thanks for the correction.

 

That might make this ability way too cheep though, but I could be wrong.

 

De nada, pal. You should note that I don't have 5ER either; I got this info from the FAQ (the old one, in this case). It's in the Advantages: General section.

 

From what I've heard via Steve Long's comments and those of people who have the book, almost all of the rules stuff added to 5ER that wasn't from another published book is in the FAQ, so if you have that to refer to you should be all right. I downloaded the PDF version, and its Searchability is a godsend.

[Gummibear]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

THank you for all the input and the lively discussion. I think I'll be going wtih the psuedo-naked advantage suggestion. Seems to fit the best as I agree that it is modifying the advantage/mechanic, not the power itself.

Thank you so much discussion board for the input.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

THank you for all the input and the lively discussion. I think I'll be going wtih the psuedo-naked advantage suggestion. Seems to fit the best as I agree that it is modifying the advantage/mechanic, not the power itself.

Thank you so much discussion board for the input.

 

You're welcome. Something I'm not sure if anybody pointed out: Naked Advantages are generally Instant, and generally Cost END. To avoid this problem, don't make Persistent a Naked Advantage. Use the rules for Partially Limited Powers on p 180 of 5th ed (p 282 of Rev 5th ed).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Partially Limited Powers, Adders or Advantages?

 

All this complication over how Naked Advantages work is why I say simply do the arithmetic as if it were a Naked Advantage, and that's it. It is not a Naked Advantage in any way. It still applies to the one Power and one Power alone; it always applies to that Power just like a normal Advantage does (whereas a Naked Advantage can be applied or not); it doesn't have the increased complexity of being Instant, Cost End, etc., or need additional Advantages to balance this. Just do the arithmetic like a Naked Advantage and leave the rest alone!

 

EDIT: Sorry. I take that back. As I said earlier in the thread, don't do the arithmetic as if it were a Naked Advantage, because you shouldn't apply it to the whole Active Points of the Power. Simply take advantage of the associative property of multiplication and addition to break up the points between the Power and the Advantage:

(Base)(1+Adv) = Base + (Base)(Adv)

then apply what Limitations apply to the Advantage alone to the Advantage portion:

Real = Base + (Base)(Adv)/(1+Lims)

And if other Advantages are present:

Real = (Base)(1+OtherAdvs) + (Base)(Adv)/(1+Lims)