STR pt cost ramifications if changed

[ShadowRaptor]

I was wondering, what would the ramifications be if you changed the cost of STR from 1 point to 1.5 or 2 points per STR point?

 

What would happen to game balance as it is designed now?

[Chris Goodwin]

Characters with higher STR would be more expensive. You'd see characters with STR closer to 10. Anecdotal evidence of characters buying up their STR just for the figured characteristics would go down.

 

With STR at 2 points, you'd need to raise the cost of Hand-to-hand Attack to 5 points.

 

Beyond that, absolutely nothing else would change.

[Lord Liaden]

I'm one of those people who is quite happy with the cost of Strength as is for Superheroic campaigns, where it keeps STR competitive with other attack Powers in Damage Class and END use; but long ago decided to increase it to 2 pts. per point of STR in heroic campaigns, where small changes can make a significant difference, especially for sword-swinging fantasy characters. The suggested rule for END usage for STR in heroic games (1 END per 5 pts. of STR, rather than the usual 10) seemed like sufficient precedent.

 

It's always worked pretty well for me, and I don't anticipate changing it.

[Arthur]

I've been pondering this very notion - not just for Fantasy Hero, but for the Hero System in general.

 

The cost as is doesn't seem too much of a problem in Superheroic games, as others have pointed out. Still, even there, Bricks can be built somewhat more cheaply than other archetypes. I would still make the change system-wide, for consistency.

 

At 2 pts per pt of STR, you have to change a few other aspects of the game to keep in line:

 

1. HTH attack: Doubles to 10 AP plus the Lim. Seems to clear up a lot of balance issues with that Power right there.

 

2. Extra DC for Martial Arts should also double to 8 pts per +1 DC. This is probably the biggest bugaboo. Do we then let extra DC bump up NND and KAs at 1/1 instead of 2/1?

 

3. CSLs used for damage become more effective. Perhaps they should increase damage at 1/3 instead of 1/2.

[ShadowRaptor]

Why would the cost of HtH attacks need to go up if the STR is increased to 2 pts instead of 1?

[Old Man]

Well, for balance purposes, you'd want the cost of HA to remain in parity with the cost of STR. Otherwise you'd see a lot of guys buying HA and neglecting STR. For heroic games, however, increasing the cost of HA might not be necessary, since it's unusual for players to be allowed to buy HA, except as a spell.

 

I ran into another reason to increase the cost of STR the other day: feebs. I was toying with the idea of making a fairly stereotypical crotchety old wizard, and it would have been in character for him to have a STR of 5. But in practical terms there's no way a player would ever do that, because he'd be giving away scads of figured characteristics for very little point return. It's the old too-many-figured-characteristics problem in reverse. The end result is that you just never see physical stats in the 1-9 range, and that exacerbates the granularity problem you might have heard me complaining about elsewhere. As it is my withered old mage still has a STR of 10.

 

If STR cost 2, then selling back 5 points of STR would net 10 CP, which still makes up for the loss of 1 PD, 1 REC, and 2.5 STUN, and people might actually do it.

 

Next on my list of characteristics to 'fix' is DEX. My plan was to split it into two characteristics, Agility and Coordination. The former would count for DCV and acrobatics rolls, while the latter would count toward OCV and lockpicking. That way you can have a craftsman or archer who isn't also an acrobat. It's not perfectly clean, but it does increase the net cost of DEX, and it fixes some of the issues I have with that stat.

[Markdoc]

I switched to 2 points per point of STR and 5 points per d6 of HA long ago and I would never change back. The cost change to HA brings it in line with HKA, RKA and EB. It also makes it equivalent to buying 5 STR, (no figured characteristics, -1/2, no bonus to jumping, lifting things or other strength feats, -1/2).

 

My experience has been (I mostly run Heroic levels games) that:

 

1. It has not hurt game balance: if anything, it has improved it, so that high STR charcters do not dominate combat quite so much.

 

2. Only characters who really want to be strong and hit things with big bits of metal buy 18 or 20 STR. So STR starts to mean more. One player, who had a giant wrestler type commented that 20 STR "felt stronger" than his 25 STR character in another fantasy game - because 18 to 20 STR was not the norm. Also, as pointed out, selling STR back is not such a stupid idea, so you start to get weak characters. Overall characters start to vary more on STR. And those points went to other things, encouraging more variation still.

 

3. It solves the problem of really cheap HA. That's mostly a problem with spell casters, but an HA limited by OIF or similar was also a problem in heroic level tech games, where it gave a lot of oomph for the points in a gadget pool or cybernetic device. Overall, it made it easier for me to balance things up, since a damage class was 5 points, regardless of how you got it (Martial arts DC aside, but see comment below)

 

Frankly, the only downside I can see is that it's a house rule, and I tend to avoid house rules if possible, to keep things easy for me and my players.

 

The only question I have not resolved is:

 

How can you use an HA? In the past, I have ruled that an HA is a specific attack (in other words a boxer might buy HA and could use it for strikes, but he could not use his HA to escape if he was grabbed by a wrestler. A wrestler could buy HA and use it on grab/hold/escape - but not strike. In other words, you need to define a special effect of your HA. If it's a club, its use is pretty straight-forward, but if it is just your hands, that's less obvious.

 

That fits the way it is normally used and also matches EB - a fireblast is a fireblast is a fireblast.

 

But I am leaning now towards allowing HA to work on all STR-based attacks, because Martial arts DC are essentially HA (only on martial attacks, -1/4) and because STR (no figured CHA) costs almost the same as HA, but adds to all attacks - and gives other bonuses as well.

 

I truthfully cannot see why any Fantasy Gm would want to retain the standard pricing system.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Arthur]

I duplicated my last post as a new thread under "Hero System Discussion". I think this is a system-level issue, not just an FH issue.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Old Man

Well, for balance purposes, you'd want the cost of HA to remain in parity with the cost of STR. Otherwise you'd see a lot of guys buying HA and neglecting STR. For heroic games, however, increasing the cost of HA might not be necessary, since it's unusual for players to be allowed to buy HA, except as a spell.

 

No you don't. HA as is, with 1 point STR, is way off compared to EB, HKA, and RKA. If you have 2-point STR, you want HA at 5 points with no Limitations, because that makes everything line up perfectly.

 

Bigtime d'oh for me, though; I totally forgot about martial arts DCs.