Martial Arts and /Style/

[Christougher]

Is the Style Disadvantage for martial arts really a disadvantage when

all your superpowered martial artists look and feel the same? One uses

capoeria, one aikido and two ninjitsu, but all have two strikes, Block

and Dodge, and one other maneuver. When I started having those

feelings, I started looking for ways to make different martial arts

styles /feel/ different. I reread descriptions of building Mongoose

Style and Bandarian Kickboxing, and found those two depicted how I

wanted martial arts to feel. Both styles had few maneuvers, but based

on the selection(or design), one was about speed and slipperyness, the

other brute strength and power.

 

The idea was sparked, to boil down different styles to focus on what

they did that others did not. A style would have exactly three

manuevers, plus one type it would never use*, and rules for increasing

by Damage Classes or levels, and where those levels were allocated.

*Why one type of maneuver it would never use if a style had only three?

Because the characters were given a total of 40 points to spend - they

could add another maneuver but not violate the style of the art. The

style definitions meant everyone knew the three maneuvers, and it

produced a series of distinctively different fights.

 

A few selected style before opening this up to the masses for comments.

 

Aikido: Throw, Dodge, Block; No Strikes, +DCV

Kung Fu: Killing Strike, Off.Strike, Block; No Grabs, +DCs

Wrestling: Grab, Escape, Reversal; No Strikes, +DCs

Capoeira: Def. Strike, Dodge, Martial Strike; No Blocks, +DCV

Bandarian Kickboxing: Killing Strike, Off. Strike, Nerve Strike; No

Dodges, +DCs

Hawk Style: Grab, Dodge, Fast Strike; No Blocks, +OCV

Mongoose Style: Grab, Crush, Dodge; No Blocks, +DCV

Overwhelm: Sacrifice Strike, Legsweep, Fast Strike; No Dodges, +OCV

[pinecone]

Re: Martial Arts and /Style/

 

I think I see where your comming from...But....some forms of Aikido Do have stikes, some forms of Kung-fu Do have grabs...etc......for me "style" is about ...say you've got two knife fighters...No 1 uses shifty deceptive arm and hand moves and shifts the knife from hand to hand...No 2 reverses his grip and uses the knife as an extension of his usual fightingmethod...Very differant "styles" maybe identical mechanics...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Martial Arts and /Style/

 

That's really just "flavor" rather than system; the "special effects" of martial arts if you will. I think it's fun to be descriptive, but it's not strictly necessary in order for the system to work. It's probably more relevant in martial arts campaigns than in most Champions games (most super-martial artists are probably using made up arts anyway such as Sinanju or Cloud Dragon Kung Fu). In my games I'm perfectly willing to let the player take that as far as he wants. Whether he wants realism; cinematic martial arts, or Dragonball Z-type combat is all OK with me as long as the player is willing to play the genre. On the other hand if he just wants a "generic super martial arts" package that's OK too.

 

In our MidGuard campaign I try hard to use descriptions of what my character does in combat - "Zl'f spins and does a back elbow strike to his stomach" or "Zl'f somersaults over Bad Guy and hammers him on the top of his head" - rather than just saying "I Martial Strike him for 8d6." It makes each fight unique and adds a lot of flavor to battles; and I think that's ultimately more fun for everyone.

 

Is this something you're examining for The Raptor or another character, or are you just thinking out loud?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Martial Arts and /Style/

 

Yeah. The Style Disadvantage is really only a disadvantage in a game which focuses heavily on the Martial Arts, where a good number of characters are likely to have Skill levels vs a specific MA style and other powers of that nature.

 

A good way to make use of the Style disadvantage is if you use the Bonus option listed under the Analyze skill, a character can bypass this by "switching styles" if he's bought a Style Disadvantage for more than 1 MA style (of course, he must know the styles maneuvers as well..duh)

 

How the "disadvantage" part comes is when a character has a KS with a specific style, he can use that as a Complementary skill to Analyze: Style and easily gain a bonus against his opponent...

[Christougher]

Re: Martial Arts and /Style/

 

I think I see where your comming from...But....some forms of Aikido Do have stikes' date=' some forms of Kung-fu Do have grabs...etc......for me "style" is about ...say you've got two knife fighters...No 1 uses shifty deceptive arm and hand moves and shifts the knife from hand to hand...No 2 reverses his grip and uses the knife as an extension of his usual fightingmethod...Very differant "styles" maybe identical mechanics...[/quote']

 

Those writeups were just my perceptions - I'm not going to argue that they're perfect or even half right. Show me your styles. Take away everything from your martial arts style and show me what the core is, how and why the style is what it is.

 

Certainly roleplaying can make some difference, but when the Wrestler fought the Bandarian Kickboxer, one Grab and the fight was essentially over. That's what I want. Fighting styles that look and ACT different in combat. A speedster will be more wary of an Aikido master than a Kung Fu master if he recognizes the difference. The brick who'll spar with a Wrestler but know it's table time against the Mongoose. Real differences in styles, not just different names for the same maneuvers.

 

 

Trebuchet, it's mostly thinking out loud, but it's making me re-examine all my MA characters. Why do they have the styles they do? What goal did they have in mind when they learned it? When I recognize a style, why do I recognize it? Can I deduce elements of an unknown style and formulate countering tactics?

[Black Rose]

Re: Martial Arts and /Style/

 

To be honest, I think a lot of Martial Artists have the styles they do because they were either cool, different, or blaringly obvious. Big bruiser-type guy? Dirty Infighting, Boxing, or Wrestling. Small and quick? Aikido, Judo, maybe Ninjutsu or Tai Ch'i. I don't see a lot Of Penjak Silat practitioners. If they want to be big-time, that's when you whip out the almighty KUNG FU-u-u-u-u-u (echo echo echo).

 

If you're going to have the Style disadvantage at -10, you should reduce it to -5 if you have more styles to choose from; it's not a disadvantage if you can avoid penalties by switching from Karate to Hisardut. And lose it entirely if you have four or more styles of sufficient difference (being the master of nine styles of Kung Fu isn't as wild as knowing a style from each continent*.

 

*And yes, that does include the devastating Penguin-Fu.

[CourtFool]

Martial Arts and without style

 

I have never run a martial arts campaign so I have never used the Style Disadvantage. I have been content with discriptive combat and the mechanics as is.

 

However, it seems you are looking for more granularity. How far you want to go down that rabbit hole is your choice. Are you familiar with G.U.R.P.S. Martial Arts? You could probably simulate something like that relatively easily in Hero. Write up all the possible maneuvers then determine which maneuvers are in each style. Characters purchase the Power Skill with a style and use any maneuver in that style at their OCV/DCV. Each maneuver may have penalties to the OCV/DCV as well. Maneuvers outside of a characters style take a -3 non-familiarity penalty. Characters are free to purchase Combat Skill Levels and/or aditional Power Skills with other styles as they please. You may also rule that certain maneuvers may not be performed unless they buy a style that includes it. Judo may not have a punch, but surely anyone can throw a punch, however, only Ninjutsu has the Dim Mak maneuver.

 

Just some thoughts at 6 in the morning. Flavor to taste of course.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Martial Arts and /Style/

 

Trebuchet' date=' it's mostly thinking out loud, but it's making me re-examine all my MA characters. Why do they have the styles they do? What goal did they have in mind when they learned it? When I recognize a style, why do I recognize it? Can I deduce elements of an unknown style and formulate countering tactics?[/quote']Your first two questions are essentially questions of character origin. Some characters may seek out a master as adults; others were raised in a shoalin monastery.

 

While I don't particularly like your "pick three maneuvers of each art as core components" idea, I think there's some merit to the idea not as core components but as "signature" moves: specific maneuvers used only by practitioners of individual arts; and as such identifiable to individuals familiar with those arts. In Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, neither of the two protagonists, Li Mu Bai and Shu Lien, had trouble recognizing that Jen had Wudan training; indeed they recognized it within seconds of engaging in combat with her. And both times the recognition was sparked by a (different) specific maneuver she used.

 

I would think that Analyze Style to some extent could allow any competent MA to learn something about an opponent's style even if he doesn't recognize the specific art. That would be determined by how much he makes his Analyse Style roll, and possibly if he's encountered the style previously. As an example, here's how I describe Zl'f's martial arts in her character writeup:

 

"[Zl'f's] fighting style is an acrobatic whirlwind of leaps, cartwheels, tumbles, somersaults, jumps, back flips, bounces, spinning kicks, high speed punches, precision strikes, backhand blows and leg sweeps. It is her very own eclectic blend of fighting moves and gymnastics performed in three dimensions and at a pace that leaves most black belts gaping in awe. She continues to develop her routine, borrowing moves from her teammate Cloud Dragon and other martial arts experts, but her style is uniquely her own."

 

In other words, I don't think a style has to actually have a name in order to qualify as such. I believe a skilled MA, such as my recent build of Captain America, could learn enough watching her fight to devise countermoves, perhaps specifically countering the circularity of her unique "style"; i.e., her spins, cartwheels, etc. Of course, that assumes he's conscious long enough to make an Analyse Style roll; since that takes at least one Turn of combat. But I don't suppose there's anything preventing a villainous opponent from throwing hordes of martial arts trained mooks at her until he has her patterns and style down.

[Black Rose]

Re: Martial Arts and /Style/

 

But I don't suppose there's anything preventing a villainous opponent from throwing hordes of martial arts trained mooks at her until he has her patterns and style down.

 

Especially since Zl'f doesn't have any area effrect attacks; throw enough mooks at her and....

[Trebuchet]

Re: Martial Arts and /Style/

 

Especially since Zl'f doesn't have any area effrect attacks; throw enough mooks at her and....

Actually, she has Area Effect: One Hex in the Variable Advantage HA slot in her MP. And of course, against mooks Sweeps work pretty well too. And she's tough for most mooks to fight because she jumps around like a rubber ball in combat. It would look like "Enter the Dragon": Endless waves of mooks getting flattened by superior skill.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Martial Arts and /Style/

 

Whether or not the DF: Style disad is really worth anything depens on how important knowing what style of martial arts someone using is. If it's not important, it's not a Disadvantage. In a normal Champions game (and even many abnormals games), you would allow a character to take DF: Flame Powers or DF: Super Strength Powers, which is pretty much what the Style Disad is... just something that lets the opponents know specifically what the SFX of your martials arts are. In a game where character use the Analyse: Combat Style to gain bonuses against each other in combat, the Style Disad offers such an opponent a bonus to that skill because your style makes you that much more predictable. Other opponents might have CSL versus specific styles, of which yours could be one. In a strictly martial arts game, the GM may have ruled that certain styles are superiror to others (in a rock-paper-scissors kinda way) and knowing that your opponent's Snake style will easily overpower your Eagle Claw, you can switch to Mongoose style and kick his ass easily... until he switches to Dragon Style, at which point you're better off leaping back and throwing rocks.

[pinecone]

Re: Martial Arts and /Style/

 

Yeah I don't beleive that I'd be happy with Distinctive style for more than 5 points at most exept in a MA game.....IF Master chow knows white eyebrow Wu shu he can buy +3 vs Kung fu stylists, but thats only likely to be an issue in a MA game, in regular champs games style is only an issue if you've got something really weird...if you use Thunder dragon ryu then someone who dresses up like you is going to be Really convincing if he uses Thunder dragon as well...even if he "really" knows something else (like tai justsu) and just has KS:Thunder dragon style....if you've got a hunted it might come up more, especially if you take Vulnrable to "style X" ....otherwise I've used evil MA's who had levels vs known styles -1/4...its an esoteric lim,But he is going to know most styles........