So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

[Agent333]

So, I want an Invisible Woman type character to be able to deflect BIG attacks, but any way of using the Missile Deflect mechanic is outlawed by the FAQ. This leaves only Force Wall or an Entagle wall to do the job (a big Dispel or Suppress might do the job as well). So, setting aside the "you can't always get what you want" arguments about Steve's ruling, how come you can't buy Missle Deflect with an equivalent level of AE for the sole purpose of swatting big villain bombs out of the air? This makes no sense to me right now.

[Vondy]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

You're not.

 

With that said, there are two ways that leap instantly to mind:

 

Purchase AE for Missile Deflection

Force Wall

[OddHat]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Ignore the ruling and go by SFX. If the AOE attack is a grenade, let Missile Deflection be use to catch it and throw it away so long as the grenade was targetted on the hex where the deflector is standing (a classic movie use of missile deflection). If the AOE is a missile or bomb, buy ranged Missile Deflection defined as particle beams (or such) and shoot it out of the air before it hits.

[Agent333]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Ignore the ruling and go by SFX. If the AOE attack is a grenade' date=' let Missile Deflection be use to catch it and throw it away so long as the grenade was targetted on the hex where the deflector is standing (a classic movie use of missile deflection). If the AOE is a missile or bomb, buy ranged Missile Deflection defined as particle beams (or such) and shoot it out of the air before it hits.[/quote']

 

Agreed! And what if the AE attack is a Dragonball Z style energy blast?

[Zed-F]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Shoot the energy blast, and have a big explosion where the beams intersect. Not realistic, but then neither is Dragonball Z.

[Sean Waters]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Pure sfx.

 

1. Does the definition of the ae attack power allow it to be deflected before it 'goes off'? If so, you can use missile deflection as per the rules.

 

2. If there is no range and the ae goes off at ground zero (say dragon breath built as a no range cone ae eb) then missile deflection can't work without rules jiggery pokery. In that case you need to interpose something, and the most obvious candidate is a force wall.

 

Are you trying to just protect yourself or lots of people: what, when it comes down to it, do you actually want to be able to do?

 

NB an area effect supress v the right sfx should do the trick too.

[OddHat]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Shoot the energy blast' date=' and have a big explosion where the beams intersect. Not realistic, but then neither is Dragonball Z. [/quote']

 

Agreed.

[Agent333]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Shoot the energy blast' date=' and have a big explosion where the beams intersect. Not realistic, but then neither is Dragonball Z. [/quote']

 

I should have known better than to hang my example on DBZ

 

What I'm really after is similar though. You've got a over-powered Energy Projector throwing down an AE EB that causes the super-team to give up their next turn of actions diving for cover or taking the hit in hopes of not getting stunned and then returning fire. I'm looking for a version of Missile deflect to put a cork in this, only to find that it's technically impossible. Since Steve Long won't answer design questions I'm putting it here:

 

WHY is it not okay to put AE on Missile Deflect?

[Sean Waters]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

I should have known better than to hang my example on DBZ

 

What I'm really after is similar though. You've got a over-powered Energy Projector throwing down an AE EB that causes the super-team to give up their next turn of actions diving for cover or taking the hit in hopes of not getting stunned and then returning fire. I'm looking for a version of Missile deflect to put a cork in this, only to find that it's technically impossible. Since Steve Long won't answer design questions I'm putting it here:

 

WHY is it not okay to put AE on Missile Deflect?

 

Because it works OCV v OCV so having ae would make it far too effective.

 

You want to cork it? I'd go for supress or even dispel, and just allow a character to abort to it (I think you can probably abort to a dispel). The sfx could be it would bounce off and explode somewhere harmless rather than not go off at all.

[OddHat]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Pure sfx.

 

1. Does the definition of the ae attack power allow it to be deflected before it 'goes off'? If so, you can use missile deflection as per the rules.

 

2. If there is no range and the ae goes off at ground zero (say dragon breath built as a no range cone ae eb) then missile deflection can't work without rules jiggery pokery. In that case you need to interpose something, and the most obvious candidate is a force wall.

 

Are you trying to just protect yourself or lots of people: what, when it comes down to it, do you actually want to be able to do?

 

NB an area effect supress v the right sfx should do the trick too.

 

Dispell can also be used defensively. A classic bit in Chinese Wuxia (on which Dragonball Z is based) is for one massive ch'i attack being used to intercept and block another; one way I've done this is to put a Dispell (vs any ch'i power, one at a time) in a MP with the character's main ch'i attack.

[Agent333]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Because it works OCV v OCV so having ae would make it far too effective.

 

I agree, technically it should change the numbers to OCV 3 vs. OCV 3 in an AE contest. Where I'm having trouble is that, once again, there is a caveat for one type of rule, but the refusal of SL to include that same caveat in a similar rule. In this case, it's the scale and what it technically should do vs. what the game balance issue is.

 

Megahex is the downfall of my thought process here: it comes loaded with the caveat the you cannot use it in less than the minimum scale it was bought. It doesn't make much real-world sense, but it works for the game balance.

 

AS well I think that Missile Deflect is a logical candidate for the AE rule if it has the caveat that it does not scale backwards. IE: you can't reduce an opponents OCV to 3 by slapping AE on it. Perhaps you could deflect multiple attacks without the -2 OCV penalty per attack, but that's no worse than buying up more skill levels I would think. In the DBZ style example I made above I could see a character who had boght his MD with Ranged (another caveat just for Missile deflect where the ranged advantage has been raised to +1) and AE radius to counter the AE EB.

 

I'm puzzled by the logic here is all. So many of these FAQ rulings just don't leave any sauce for the goose.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

This all starts from a desire to block attacks like Sue Richards. I'd say she simply aborts (or uses a reserved phase) to take a defensive action (raise a force wall), meaning there is no need to missile deflect in order to achieve the desired effect anyway.

 

Rather than change the missile deflection rules, I would suggest judicious use of the "can be missile deflected" limitation on AoE attacks which, logically, should be subject to missile deflection.

[Agent333]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

A bump to hopefully get Sean Waters attention before I have to leave for work

[Agent333]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

This all starts from a desire to block attacks like Sue Richards. I'd say she simply aborts (or uses a reserved phase) to take a defensive action (raise a force wall), meaning there is no need to missile deflect in order to achieve the desired effect anyway.

 

Rather than change the missile deflection rules, I would suggest judicious use of the "can be missile deflected" limitation on AoE attacks which, logically, should be subject to missile deflection.

 

Right, but that's in my game. I'm trying to find out the design philosophy behind forbidding what seems to be a no-brainer ruling about MD w/ AE. SL won't tell me, it's unlikely he'd debate me in a private e-mail chat and whenever someone wants design philosophy answers he says "Go to the Hero System Discussion forum". So, here I am.

 

But thank you, you are correct about allowing Sue to abort to the FW. It makes sense and simulates what I'm after. I'm just being a bulldog about why the MD rules mechanics are not also seen as a viable option.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Right' date=' but that's in [i']my[/i] game. I'm trying to find out the design philosophy behind forbidding what seems to be a no-brainer ruling about MD w/ AE. SL won't tell me, it's unlikely he'd debate me in a private e-mail chat and whenever someone wants design philosophy answers he says "Go to the Hero System Discussion forum". So, here I am.

 

But thank you, you are correct about allowing Sue to abort to the FW. It makes sense and simulates what I'm after. I'm just being a bulldog about why the MD rules mechanics are not also seen as a viable option.

 

I agree with Steve not wanting to discuss rules design philosophy - he'd never get any work done.

 

I see a lot of AE abilities which, logically, cannot be missile deflected. Consider:

 

- a volcano erupts from the ground beneath where LavaMan points his finger

- a noxious gas fills the area

- a blue bolt from the heavens strikes the ground

- the dragon breathes forth a gout of flame

- millions of tiny arrows fill the area

 

Many, if not most, area effect attacks are not "missiles". To permit their deflection would be illogical.

 

That leaves two game approaches. First, set certain types of attacks as, by default, immune to missile deflection, and permit them a limitation if they can be deflected. Second, allow missile deflection to expand infinitely, but add a "cannot be missile deflected" advantage. The choice made may be one of game desitgn philosophy by Steve, or a pragmatic "neither is superior so stick with the familiar" decision.

 

Considering AE attacks start with a +1/2 to +1 advantage, a +1/4 "cannot be deflected" wouldn't cost that much anyeway, so we'd probably see it on many such attacks in any case.

 

The other problem with missile deflection of area effect attacks is "where do they go"? Unlike other types of attacks, which can simply be assumed to land where they don't hurt anyone, a 6 hex radius fist of stone logically needs to land somewhere, and isn't going to be haremless when it does.

[Fox1]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

I agree with Steve not wanting to discuss rules design philosophy - he'd never get any work done.

 

It would also become even more blindly obvious that he doesn't really have a design philosophy suited to HERO.

 

 

 

Note: A little overstated

[Agent333]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Responding to Hugh Neilson (I'm a slow typist, forgive me)

 

Okay, so it seems that this is one where the SFX are trumping the game rules. Is that correct? I only say that because, from my persepective working with HERO rules, that's no the case. SFX determine what power is chosen to fit the effect, I get that. What I'm not getting is why MD doesn't get the same respect on an AE sale that other defenses do.

 

" - a volcano erupts from the ground beneath where LavaMan points his finger"

 

If this power had not been bought with AE could it be Missile Deflected, even with the exact same SFX. Rules wise it can, though the GM can overrride that if he wishes. In fact, I can say the same for each of the examples you sight. What I do not get is why the SFX is trumping the game mechanic in your examples.

 

For arguments sake, let's give my imaginary AE MD the Any SFX advantage and compare SFX.

 

-Lava AE vs. my freezing ice wall MD. The ground hisses and cools around the target character.

 

-Noxious gas gets blown back by my wind wall MD.

 

-Blue Bolt from Heaven is bought indirect so my God wall MD does nothing.

 

-The gout of dragon breath comes at me and my wind wall MD saves the day again!

 

-Millions of tiny arrows are deflected by the millions of tiny shuriken my wuxia ninja threw at them.

 

 

Now, I'm sure this won't hold water with you since I haven't given a single solid SFX vs. each of these examples. However, I get the impression that the Force Wall would do just fine in each instance (And I agree, better than what I made for my MD examples), but I'm looking at this in terms of rules mechanics. If the Force Wall takes enough damage, it falls and the attack commences as normal, but at reduced effect. This works whether or not the attack is of sufficient SFX, it's just accepted because it stops damage up to a certain point (and in most cases, no need to roll to target it).

 

The Missile Deflection mechanic (And it really should be called "Ranged Attack Deflection" since since the "missile" part is misleading) allows a roll against the attackers ability to hit the target. If the defender does not make the roll, he takes ALL of the damage, not at reduced effects. Now, taken purely as a rule mechanic, and not strictly a vehicle for certain SFX, this is a viable defense that changes the dynamic from being "How much damage can I absorb?" into a quetion of "How muc better my skill is at stopping this thing?"

 

Further, I beleive that using the caveats already listed under existing powers, you can make a balanced version of AE MD by disallowing the change of total attackers OCV into OCV 3 and making the AE deflection scaled in equal measuer to the attack (No one hex MDs blocking AE radius attacks kind of thing.)

 

AS for the SFX, if Steve Long can make a brick character usingMD as "Bracing for impact" I can make a "Force Wall" built with MD, so long as I can make it AE.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Okay' date=' so it seems that this is one where the SFX are trumping the game rules. Is that correct? I only say that because, from my persepective working with HERO rules, that's no the case. SFX determine what power is chosen to fit the effect, I get that. What I'm not getting is why MD doesn't get the same respect on an AE sale that other defenses do.[/quote']

 

If one reads missile deflection, it's clear it is a case where SFX trumps. Missile Deflect - Bullets will stop my 15d6 Rubber Bullets, but not my 8d6 lightning bolt. Even less missile deflection will be sufficient if my character is an Archer.

 

-Lava AE vs. my freezing ice wall MD. The ground hisses and cools around the target character.

 

But missile deflection would stop the entire attack, including those portions which would target a character on the other side of your ice wall. Logical result?

 

Character X Volcano Ice Wall You

 

I'd say Character X ought to be affected.

 

As well, how does LavaMan having a poor or great OCV change the likelihood your ice wall gets in the way of the lava? But a Force Wall made of ice gets the correct result, eliminating both these concerns.

 

The same issues apply to most of the other examples.

 

-Millions of tiny arrows are deflected by the millions of tiny shuriken my wuxia ninja threw at them.

 

And here, you only need MD vs Arrows, as I picked a lower end SFX - millions of tiny laser beams may not have been stopped, if you only have 10 or 15 base Missile Deflection points. [Taking the SFX war one step further, can my superspeedy miniature spacecraft shoot your shuriken out of the sky with its point defense laser projectors (another MD variant)? ]

 

Now' date=' I'm sure this won't hold water with you since I haven't given a single solid SFX vs. each of these examples.[/quote']

 

Unlike my brilliant concept character examples ?

 

However' date=' I get the impression that the Force Wall would do just fine in each instance (And I agree, better than what I made for my MD examples),[/quote']

 

The Force Wall gets between attacker and attack, and should work in any such case. Of course, if those tiny little arrows are a "love this person" mind control, they sail right through the Force Wall, but life is unfair.

 

but I'm looking at this in terms of rules mechanics. If the Force Wall takes enough damage, it falls and the attack commences as normal, but at reduced effect. This works whether or not the attack is of sufficient SFX, it's just accepted because it stops damage up to a certain point (and in most cases, no need to roll to target it).

 

The Missile Deflection mechanic (And it really should be called "Ranged Attack Deflection" since since the "missile" part is misleading) allows a roll against the attackers ability to hit the target. If the defender does not make the roll, he takes ALL of the damage, not at reduced effects. Now, taken purely as a rule mechanic, and not strictly a vehicle for certain SFX, this is a viable defense that changes the dynamic from being "How much damage can I absorb?" into a quetion of "How muc better my skill is at stopping this thing?"

 

Purely as a rule mechanic, AE eliminates the difficulty in hitting targets. A normal EB must target the individual, who may dodge to get out of the way, or could actively defend by deflecting (blocking) the attack. Area Effect eliminates the effect of both approaches by targetting space rather than individuals.

 

Further' date=' I beleive that using the caveats already listed under existing powers, you can make a balanced version of AE MD by disallowing the change of total attackers OCV into OCV 3 and making the AE deflection scaled in equal measuer to the attack (No one hex MDs blocking AE radius attacks kind of thing.)[/quote']

 

I'm not sure I follow your suggestion for OCV changes. Do we use the attacker and defender's base OCV's for deflection purposes? What is the base radius of your AoE (presumably the usual AP/10)? Can an AoE radius MD block an AoE Line attack, or vice versa? What happens when you try to block my AoE 6" radius Fireball with your 6" radius DeflectorShield, and miss by 1? 2" of radius fails to overlap? You fail entirely? What if my fireball was 8" radius? Do you fail entirely, or block 6" radius? If the latter, which 6"?

 

I don't see AoE missile deflect as being as straightforward as you seem to believe. The complexities could certainly be worked out with a batch of rules, but I don't see the benefits of AoE MD justifiying the costs in terms of work to make it fit in to the system.

 

Then again, I wouldn't object to Missile Deflection being eliminated as a separate power. It can be simulated with a Dispel of attack powers (only usable defensively), extra DCV (with, perhaps, Extra Time), extra defenses with an activation roll or skill roll, or any number of other abilities - even Desolid stacked with lots of limitations. It's really just a Block usable at range, so maybe making it a ranged MA maneuver would be an appropriate approach as well. [Anyone else remember when Missile Deflection was a skill, and absolutely required a focus?]

[RDU Neil]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

I just wonder (and maybe somebody else stated this, and I missed it) why Missile Deflection is a "Power" and not a "maneuver?"

 

I mean, it is really just "Block vs. ranged" and block is a maneuver... so Missile Deflection seems to me to be "the ability to use the block maneuver vs. ranged attacks."

 

The addition of SFX (vs. bullets, arrows, etc.) is an old hold over from a less analytical time in the Hero history. Right now, a 10 STR martial artist can block the Hulk if his OCV w/Block is good enough. Blocking can take a variety of SFX as well. It doesn't have to be forearm to forearm. So why shouldn't a flat amount... say 20 points, allow you to "use the block maneuver vs. ranged" and it shouldn't matter what the SFX of the ranged attack is. Essentially buying a "maneuver" for your character like a martial arts maneuver.

 

With this rule (which is more internally consistent and doesn't really change a damn thing, mechanically) there would be no question about putting AE on Missile Deflect... because you don't put AE on maneuvers.

 

(Of course, you could get into "putting AE on my STR" which is legal, but I don't think folks would allow that to mean you could block an AE attack any more than you could Missile Deflect and AE attack.)

 

Anyway... that's my take on it.

[incrdbil]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

If the AE attack is of a type that can be deflected, it would have "Can be missile defelcted" as a limitation, presumably. that covers grenades. Giant cones of energy just coming from the source..that doesn't sound like something missiel deflection would apply to.

 

 

 

and technically, with AE Missile Defelction, doesn't that just mean you could simultaneously try to deflect all attacks in the radius being made at that time that can be missiel deflected? And perhaps you would not suffer the -2 per cumulative attempt that phase for atatcks originating in that area unde that interpretation.

[Agent333]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

If one reads missile deflection' date=' it's clear it is a case where SFX trumps. Missile Deflect - Bullets will stop my 15d6 Rubber Bullets, but not my 8d6 lightning bolt. Even less missile deflection will be sufficient if my character is an Archer.[/quote']

 

Right, I am discussing MD bought at the All attacks level. Below that the SFX are critical, but at this level the MD defends against the same attacks as a Force Wall would.

 

 

But missile deflection would stop the entire attack, including those portions which would target a character on the other side of your ice wall. Logical result?

 

Character X Volcano Ice Wall You

 

I'd say Character X ought to be affected.

 

As well, how does LavaMan having a poor or great OCV change the likelihood your ice wall gets in the way of the lava? But a Force Wall made of ice gets the correct result, eliminating both these concerns.

 

The same issues apply to most of the other examples.

 

The issue of the surrounding area shoudln't even be considered since the Missile Deflection stops the attack. I realise you have concern about where the big missille goes after deflection, but this isn't even a consideration in the FAQ, SL says the ricochet effect of a deflected attack is up to the GM, but by default it's sent somewhere harmless. The fact that other defenses could have the SFX of causing an attack to "fizzle" but not allowing an MD the same lattitude again speaks to how SFX is trumping the rules mechanics in your argument. This is NOT in contention, the GM should have/has the lattitude and the right to disallow MD to act as a defense in certain situations. The same goes for all attacks and defenses written in my 5ER. What isn't coming through is how allowing AE scaled to do to AE attacks exactly what it does to normal attacks is not justifiable form a purely rules perspective.

 

 

And here, you only need MD vs Arrows, as I picked a lower end SFX - millions of tiny laser beams may not have been stopped, if you only have 10 or 15 base Missile Deflection points. [Taking the SFX war one step further, can my superspeedy miniature spacecraft shoot your shuriken out of the sky with its point defense laser projectors (another MD variant)? ]

 

Isn't the real question here "Can a ranged MD deflect another ranged MD?" IF so, there's your answer.

 

 

Unlike my brilliant concept character examples ?

 

not my problem if you can't take a compliment

 

 

 

The Force Wall gets between attacker and attack, and should work in any such case. Of course, if those tiny little arrows are a "love this person" mind control, they sail right through the Force Wall, but life is unfair.

 

But, if I wanted to stop mental attacks with my Force Wall, I'd have to buy MD for it. If HERO gurus were so inclined they could allow a "Deflects Mental Attacks" advantage for MD, but they don't so I assume MD is inappropriate for that at this time. Maybe in 6th edition?

 

Purely as a rule mechanic, AE eliminates the difficulty in hitting targets. A normal EB must target the individual, who may dodge to get out of the way, or could actively defend by deflecting (blocking) the attack. Area Effect eliminates the effect of both approaches by targetting space rather than individuals.

 

Now this I can back up. I totally agree. But, again an AE MD is scaling to the same/similar level. So far, the real advantage I see of MD vs. FW is that my way would allow MD to deflect the entirety of the attack and it's area while FW has to be bought to the same or greater area to do the same (an expensive prospect indeed)

 

 

 

I'm not sure I follow your suggestion for OCV changes. Do we use the attacker and defender's base OCV's for deflection purposes? What is the base radius of your AoE (presumably the usual AP/10)? Can an AoE radius MD block an AoE Line attack, or vice versa? What happens when you try to block my AoE 6" radius Fireball with your 6" radius DeflectorShield, and miss by 1? 2" of radius fails to overlap? You fail entirely? What if my fireball was 8" radius? Do you fail entirely, or block 6" radius? If the latter, which 6"?

 

Well, if you asked me to give my knee-jerk suggetion to the guys in the HERO offices, I'd tell them use the Attacke'rs and Defender's normal OCV values, skill levels and all. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel here. The game mechanic works fine on the small scale. Applying the same to AE seems a snap: Adding the AE to MD means the AE attack is brought back down to the non-AE level for purposes of deflecting.

 

I don't see AoE missile deflect as being as straightforward as you seem to believe. The complexities could certainly be worked out with a batch of rules, but I don't see the benefits of AoE MD justifiying the costs in terms of work to make it fit in to the system.

 

Then again, I wouldn't object to Missile Deflection being eliminated as a separate power. It can be simulated with a Dispel of attack powers (only usable defensively), extra DCV (with, perhaps, Extra Time), extra defenses with an activation roll or skill roll, or any number of other abilities - even Desolid stacked with lots of limitations. It's really just a Block usable at range, so maybe making it a ranged MA maneuver would be an appropriate approach as well. [Anyone else remember when Missile Deflection was a skill, and absolutely required a focus?]

 

In HERO you can skin a cat a bazillion different ways. I'm only interested in one particular method and I absolutely hate the FAQ saying "No" without a word of why. I may be mistaken, but you seem to have a history with this power and I can understand if it already seems too powerful as it is (because it is). But coming from my way of thinking, this is a simple rule to implement that wouldn't take more than one or two paragraphs to clarify.

 

And unlike other posters might do on this site, I want to thank you for this exchange and debate. I like having my ideas challenged (most of the time )

[Sean Waters]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Hello again. Had to go out so I was away for the bump!

 

AE is one of those odd sort of advantages. It does two things:

 

1. Allows you to hit more than one target

 

2. Makes it easier to hit one or more targets.

 

I suppose there are therefore two ways in which it could be 'deflected' - either changing the point of impact, or changing the shape of the area effect (which soulds suspiciously like a transform....)

 

I can imagine an ae power that could 'logically' be partially deflected (like you stand inside the radius of a megascale deflection and stop it hitting you (and those behind you, I suppose).

 

Mind you, AE doesn't necessarily HAVE a direction - there's nothing in the rules that says it starts in the target ex and rolls out to the edges so a 'directed' defence like a force wall wouldn't necessarily help unless it is an englobing wall.

 

One option for smaller AEs is the intruiging concept of AE DCV levels for the environment - at least it makes it less likely the attack will hit the target hex, even if it is not a guarantee of avoiding all the consequences.

 

I still think that the way forward would be an AE supress (maybe defined as a gust of wind?)that could be used to wipe out part of an AE attack (with GM permission) rather than missile deflect for AE.

 

All of the arguments presented for allowing AE for MD make sense but I fear the whole thing would come down to sfx battles and interpretation. Flawed as the system is, it had the advantage of clarity (at least to some extent, and always acknowledging the excellent point that MD is already sfx burdened re thrown/muscle powered/bullets/shrapnel/energy/whatever).

 

In the current situation, what was the attack and what was the proposed defence?

[Agent333]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

responding to RDU Neil

 

You're right, it seems that MD floats in this hazy place between a maneuver and a power (kind of like Find Weakness). It's obviuosly a maneuver because it's based on the Block mechanic, but it costs much more than a martial maneuver would (and rightly so). If it were not for "Brace for Impact" in TUB I probably never would have broached the question of AE on MD, to be honest.

 

responding to incrdbil

Because of the limitations "Can be Deflected" and "Can be Blocked" it seemed to me that the opposite might be true. An advantage on MD that allows it to deflect AE never seemed to be a rule-breaker to me until last night when I read the FAQ for clarification. What was I thinking?

[Agent333]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

In the current situation, what was the attack and what was the proposed defence?

 

Thanks for coming back Sean! The situation really only exists in my head, this is a non-specific question about the REASON for a ruling. I'm not really trying to simulate AE MD with other rules and were I making a character who could cover the examples that have been brought up, I'd use FW hands down. I just find it curious that an attack that has the "Can be Deflected/Blocked" limit doesn't throw the HERO world off its axis, but do the opposite and it's a no-no. Again, sauce for the goose.

[Sean Waters]

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

 

Thanks for coming back Sean! The situation really only exists in my head' date=' this is a non-specific question about the REASON for a ruling. I'm not really trying to simulate AE MD with other rules and were I making a character who could cover the examples that have been brought up, I'd use FW hands down. I just find it curious that an attack that has the "Can be Deflected/Blocked" limit doesn't throw the HERO world off its axis, but do the opposite and it's a no-no. Again, sauce for the goose.[/quote']

 

It is a good point, and I note your mention of using MD as a 'brace for impact': clearly it doesn't do that very well as it should equally apply to AE attacks, so the folks at Hero once more sow a little seed of confusion....ah well.

 

Block and MD always seemed underdeveloped to me in any event. They are clearly the same mechanic, but the mechanic itself is a bit daft: I mean Joe Agile-But-Otherwise-Normal has a high dexterity and can block attacks. The Ultimate Titan (thank goodness he's not called The Incredible Titan, eh? ) who has a strength of 120 and is 25 feet tall hits J A-B-O-N and JABON blocks. He succeeds (TUT's OCV is not too high), and takes an impact that could punch through a vault door on his forearm, sustaining not even a bruise...hmmm...

 

In their next fight, JABON who has now bought MD has a battleship thrown at him by TUT. He makes his roll and it bounces away....

 

In fact, there's a rogue planetoid headed for Earth, an extinction level event, but JABON isn't worried...with all this experience from defeating characters far more powerful than he is he has an astronomical OCV, and he's standing right at ground zero....

 

I KNOW you have to apply some common sense (if you can find any at short notice) and so on, but it just seems wrong to me.

 

It isn't easy to come up with a rule that addresses this in a simple and easily applied way.

 

Maybe you should have two components to Block and MD: whether you succeed with the manouvre and how much damage you can actually turn aside. To be honest I wouldn't mind it being built as a sort of Damage Reduction with RSR: still not ideal, but better.

 

Maybe you should have to base MD on another power, say an EB if that is what you use to deflect attacks, or armour if it is built into a shield (for block you would use STR or the DCx5 of your weapon for heroic campaigns). Defensive powers count as double points and the total is the maximum AP of attack you can completely block or deflect with a successful roll. Just flapping my lips here, you understand....

 

Doesn't help much with AE attacks, but we'll get there....