disguising subconscious

[Foxx!]

Heroes!

 

With mental sense Shape Shift, you can make surface thoughts look like something else. How do you make deeper and subconscious thoughts look like something else?

 

Cheers!

[Guest C--]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

Sigh. Not this again.

 

 

Just buy Mental Defense.

[Warp9]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

Heroes!

 

With mental sense Shape Shift, you can make surface thoughts look like something else. How do you make deeper and subconscious thoughts look like something else?

 

Cheers!

I'd say use a combo of Mental Defense (to make sure that your mind doesn't actually get read), and a Mental Illusions Damage Field (to make your telepathic attacker think that he's reading the thoughts that you want him to read).

[Dust Raven]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

Burried Thoughts: Mental Defense 30, IPE (only effects are invisible).

 

The attacker hits the target, and finds he must reach the subconscious just to listen to surface thoughts. Combine with Shape Shift (mental group) and I'd allow you to "replace" your surface thoughts with fake ones so the attacker might be fooled into thinking the attack succeeded.

[Guest C--]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

Burried Thoughts: Mental Defense 30, IPE (only effects are invisible).

 

Mental Defense doesn't cost End. The effects are already invisible.

[Ndreare]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

How about Images? I have used this in my Fantasy games for characters who give you a false image when you read their mind/aura.

 

Images that target self. Then as long as they do not penetrate your Mental Defence they "See" what ever you want them to.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

Mental Defense doesn't cost End. The effects are already invisible.

 

True enough, but I saw a published 4th Edition character with Mental Defense IPE; the SFX of it was that if a telepathic probe of the character failed, the prober would not realise that it had been blocked and would "read" the kind of thoughts that the Defended character wanted to project.

 

IMO that's such a cool Special Effect that as GM I would allow it.

[Foxx!]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

Thank you everyone. It seems most people suggest using Mental Defence to keep the invasion down to surface level and then use another power to make surface thoughts look like deep thoughts.

 

Cheers!

[Dust Raven]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

Mental Defense doesn't cost End. The effects are already invisible.

 

So if you've bought Armor, and I shoot you and you take no damage, for no extra cost you can make it look as if I just blew a hole through you? I don't think so. The fact you have Armor might not be apparent, but the fact that the attack didn't affect you, or didn't affect you like it would someone without Armor, it obvious. The IPE is there to make that obviousness go away, otherwise once the target is hit once, the mentalist will know the target had Mental Defense (or another power that provides defense against mental powers). It's something I'd only in special cases, and this looks like one of them.

[Guest C--]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

So if you've bought Armor' date=' and I shoot you and you take no damage, for no extra cost you can make it look as if I just blew a hole through you?[/quote']

 

Yep. Zombies and vampires have Armor with that sfx.

 

I don't think so.

 

Umm... sorry.

 

The fact you have Armor might not be apparent, but the fact that the attack didn't affect you, or didn't affect you like it would someone without Armor, it obvious. The IPE is there to make that obviousness go away, otherwise once the target is hit once, the mentalist will know the target had Mental Defense (or another power that provides defense against mental powers). It's something I'd only in special cases, and this looks like one of them.

 

Umm... no. Armor is as invisible as you can get. Powers are either visible or invisible. There's no "specially invisible" that you can somehow achieve by putting IPE on it. IPE only makes it as invisible as a power that doesn't cost End.

 

The mentalist will know when he rolls 75 points worth of Telepathy and only gets surface thoughts that something is wrong. The guy with the shotgun who shoots the vampire in the chest and sees the guy standing there with a hole in his shirt will know that something is wrong. When someone uses their 125 Str to pick up the bad guy, and finds they can't lift him because he's too heavy (lots of Density Increase), they'll know something is wrong. You can buy IPE fifteen times and it won't change that.

[Guest C--]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

True enough, but I saw a published 4th Edition character with Mental Defense IPE; the SFX of it was that if a telepathic probe of the character failed, the prober would not realise that it had been blocked and would "read" the kind of thoughts that the Defended character wanted to project.

 

IMO that's such a cool Special Effect that as GM I would allow it.

 

I saw a lot of 4th Edition writeups with... interesting... power constructs.

[Dust Raven]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

Yep. Zombies and vampires have Armor with that sfx.

 

 

 

Umm... sorry.

 

 

 

Umm... no. Armor is as invisible as you can get. Powers are either visible or invisible. There's no "specially invisible" that you can somehow achieve by putting IPE on it. IPE only makes it as invisible as a power that doesn't cost End.

 

The mentalist will know when he rolls 75 points worth of Telepathy and only gets surface thoughts that something is wrong. The guy with the shotgun who shoots the vampire in the chest and sees the guy standing there with a hole in his shirt will know that something is wrong. When someone uses their 125 Str to pick up the bad guy, and finds they can't lift him because he's too heavy (lots of Density Increase), they'll know something is wrong. You can buy IPE fifteen times and it won't change that.

 

So you would suggest buying Mental Defense with the Visible Limitation if you want the attacker to know there are "shields" up when he attacks?

[Guest C--]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

So you would suggest buying Mental Defense with the Visible Limitation if you want the attacker to know there are "shields" up when he attacks?

 

Well, that depends. If it's visible, then everybody knows (or at least everybody with mental awareness) as soon as he walks in the room. It's like his head is glowing or something. He'll stand out like a sore thumb. But just to have regular old mental defense, where somebody hits you with an Ego Attack and say "wow, his mind is shielded, I don't think I got anything through"--that's just the sfx of the Mental Defense. The advantages/disadvantages sort of cancel out. As a GM, I never tell players exactly how much effect they've gotten. And my GMs never tell me that as a player. I've had villains "no-sell" an attack, even if they took almost got dazed by it. "Ha! You think that pathetic attack can hurt me? [silently]Oh f$#%, that hurt...[/silently]"

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

The mentalist will know when he rolls 75 points worth of Telepathy and only gets surface thoughts that something is wrong.

But that isn't what Foxx was asking for. 75 points of Telepathy and you only get surface thoughts is just normal Mental Defense. What do you buy if you want them to think that they are reading deeper when they actually aren't? "Aha! I used 75 points of Telepathy and have seen into her subconscious!" No he hasn't. He only thinks he has. That's an advantage over regular Mental Defense, and is therefore worth points.

 

If it looks like the attack is working, you keep doing it.

If it looks like the attack isn't working, you stop and try something else.

If it looks like the attack is working, but it isn't, yout opponent is quite happy with you continuing an ineffective attack.

[prestidigitator]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

But that isn't what Foxx was asking for. 75 points of Telepathy and you only get surface thoughts is just normal Mental Defense. What do you buy if you want them to think that they are reading deeper when they actually aren't? "Aha! I used 75 points of Telepathy and have seen into her subconscious!" No he hasn't. He only thinks he has. That's an advantage over regular Mental Defense, and is therefore worth points.

 

If it looks like the attack is working, you keep doing it.

If it looks like the attack isn't working, you stop and try something else.

If it looks like the attack is working, but it isn't, yout opponent is quite happy with you continuing an ineffective attack.

Well put. I think Mental Defense is necessary, but not sufficient. You should also add in some Images, Mental Illusions, or at the very least an Advantage (the IPE was an interesting one!).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

I'm not touching this one....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yet.

[Ndreare]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

Well put. I think Mental Defense is necessary' date=' but not sufficient. You should also add in some Images, Mental Illusions, or at the very least an Advantage (the IPE was an interesting one!).[/quote']

 

I like my Images idea, but find Metal Illusion a stretch, then you have to buy a damage shield and all that. However it has the advantage of powerful Mental Shields will let the attacker know the deception as opposed to the images make it were it requires perception/intelegence to know.

 

I wonder which is better for most?

[Dust Raven]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

I'm thinking Shape Shift fits the effects more closely, as the false perceptions are only concerned with the single character. Though if the character was able to do this trick for others (making their buddy protected by a screne of false thoughts), Images could be useful.

[atlascott]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

AS to the zombie with a hole thru its chest: in game effects, that means the zombie is taking body. The zombie is probably bought with the no bleed and does not take stun modifiers. So a hole thru the chest of a shotgunned zombie is not misleading the attacker. In fact, it is giving the attackers precise and correct information about the zoimbie's abilities: that it doesnt get stunned, and that it doesn seem to particularly care how much body you do unless you can dismember it (ie, do so much damage that you 'kill' it).

 

In contrast, the mental defense here is giving inaccurate info on the attacking character's effect on the target. So I agree that mental defense is not sufficient. I do not rmemeber, but vaguely recall, that you cannot link powers that cost no end, and as I recall it, mental defense is a zero end power. If my receollection is correct, then you can scratch my first idea, which was to link mental defense with mental illusion (with sfx 'whatever character wants attacker to see') , with limitation that it only works when attack does not penetrate mental defenses. Some contruct along these lines is definitely what is needed. It must also be a damage shield, as someone suggested, because this is 'automatic'--presumably OUR HERO doesnt have to wait for his phase to activate the power. I will say this--for it be be effective, it will be expensive. But then again, think about how much more effective this is in game terms!

[Dust Raven]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

AS to the zombie with a hole thru its chest: in game effects' date=' that means the zombie is taking body. The zombie is probably bought with the no bleed and does not take stun modifiers. So a hole thru the chest of a shotgunned zombie is not misleading the attacker. In fact, it is giving the attackers precise and correct information about the zoimbie's abilities: that it doesnt get stunned, and that it doesn seem to particularly care how much body you do unless you can dismember it (ie, do so much damage that you 'kill' it).[/quote']

Good point there, I hadn't though of it that way. I typicaly work things this way with regards to SFX and such. Instant Regen bought as Armor for example; you see them take damage, but it heals instantly so they know the attack did effectively no damage.

 

In contrast, the mental defense here is giving inaccurate info on the attacking character's effect on the target. So I agree that mental defense is not sufficient. I do not rmemeber, but vaguely recall, that you cannot link powers that cost no end, and as I recall it, mental defense is a zero end power. If my receollection is correct, then you can scratch my first idea, which was to link mental defense with mental illusion (with sfx 'whatever character wants attacker to see') , with limitation that it only works when attack does not penetrate mental defenses. Some contruct along these lines is definitely what is needed. It must also be a damage shield, as someone suggested, because this is 'automatic'--presumably OUR HERO doesnt have to wait for his phase to activate the power. I will say this--for it be be effective, it will be expensive. But then again, think about how much more effective this is in game terms!

I don't think it has to be too expensive or have Damage Shield. If my idea of just putting IPE on the Mental Defense wouldn't work, the Shape Shift would. It's exactly what Shape Shift does (makes you appear to be something you are not, or something about you is something it isn't).

[prestidigitator]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

Good point there' date=' I hadn't though of it that way. I typicaly work things this way with regards to SFX and such. Instant Regen bought as Armor for example; you see them take damage, but it heals instantly so they know the attack did effectively no damage.[/quote']

Huh. Or Damage Reduction maybe? Eh....

 

I don't think it has to be too expensive or have Damage Shield. If my idea of just putting IPE on the Mental Defense wouldn't work, the Shape Shift would. It's exactly what Shape Shift does (makes you appear to be something you are not, or something about you is something it isn't).

Maybe. Then again, Shape Shift changes what you appear to be, and not necessarily what you appear to be doing. Should your thoughts be considered part of your static appearence, or part of your actions? Maybe it depends on how deep you go. I would think that surface thoughts would liken more to actions. Images or Mental Illusions could certainly provide disguise either way, though. Shape Shift? It is a good idea, but feels just a smidge shaky to me.

 

I did like the IPE of Mental Defense idea. It could easily be interpreted or allowed/disallowed differently between GMs, though. It merits some more thought and perhaps discussion. (I'd rep you on it if I could. )

[Dust Raven]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

Huh. Or Damage Reduction maybe? Eh....

 

 

Maybe. Then again, Shape Shift changes what you appear to be, and not necessarily what you appear to be doing. Should your thoughts be considered part of your static appearence, or part of your actions? Maybe it depends on how deep you go. I would think that surface thoughts would liken more to actions. Images or Mental Illusions could certainly provide disguise either way, though. Shape Shift? It is a good idea, but feels just a smidge shaky to me.

 

I did like the IPE of Mental Defense idea. It could easily be interpreted or allowed/disallowed differently between GMs, though. It merits some more thought and perhaps discussion. (I'd rep you on it if I could. )

 

I'm sure all this will be cleared up when the Ultimate Mentalist finally comes out.

[prestidigitator]

Re: disguising subconscious

 

I'm sure all this will be cleared up when the Ultimate Mentalist finally comes out.

Ehhh...I'm sure. Not that I will likely see it in any of my local gaming stores (or buy it, for I like to be able to browse something to know what I will get out of it before I buy). :sigh: