Old Wounds Reopened. Supes/Thor

[Oruncrest]

Re: Re: Re: About Superman's "Super Speed"

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

 

Originally posted by Oruncrest

Superman's writers have recently remembered that Supes has superspeed and have been letting him use it on those 'more powerful foes' that you speak of. For instance: in Supes' first battle with Ignition, Supes punched, used Super-freeze Breath, punched, used Heat Vision, and punched Ignition all in the same panel.

 

Mmmh. In HERO terms, wasn't that a multiple attack?

 

Nope. You're not supposed to use Melee & Ranged attacks together in a multiple power attack. Also, you can't use the same power to attack more than once per phase with an MPA (3 punches, remember)

 

Never saw that, but I shall give you credit. The idea of a foot-running Superman is just so weird, though.

 

The most recent official race was commented on in Action #600, I'll have to dig through my collection to find the specific book it was in though. Superman recently (year before last, I think) went for a cross-country jog with the Flash, and at the end of their run gave Wally a Christmas present (more digging, sigh).

 

The DC universe had more relaunches than a PC in one year. Continuity is optional there, and I saw many, many silly things being written to be completely forgotten afterwards. I once read a comic where the Man Of Steel healed a sand-creature with a Super-Laugh, no less.

 

I once read a comic where Cyclops used his optic blasts to fly. And I've never seen that again. If you scrape the bottom of the barrel long enough, you can find all sorts of drek to play with.

 

Just look at Power Girl, one of the myriad Supermen plaguing the DCU for instance. This lovely heroine has 3 or 4 origins, each one less credible than the one before.

 

Actually, she's one of the myriad Supergirls in the DCU. And the last I checked, she's only had 2; The Pre-CRISIS cousin of the Earth-2 Superman, and the Post-CRISIS granddaughter of Arion.

 

In the most credible stories (Crisis On Infinite Earths, Kingdom Come, etc) Superman does age, albeit more slowly. Thor is a genuine immortal (who cannot age, as oppose to cannot die), a god superior to his fellow Asgardians, whose origins are far more credible to explain his immense powers than Superman's, who was just a Kryptonian among equals.

 

"Thor: Divine Mutant or the ultimate in selective breeding."

Question: How many Asgardians (besides his parents) can give Thor a decent brawl?

 

(Being an ordinary alien can carry you a long way to power in the DCU. Just look at the Martian Manhunter or the Legion for that matter. As a rule of thumb, each alien can push its own planet, it seems.)

 

Pre-reboot, almost all the Legionaires were exceptional. Saturn Girl was the most gifted telepath. Shrinking Violet could shrink even further than most Imiski. Cosmic Boy could (and once did) whip his weight in Braalians. Ect. About the only members who were 'equal' to his or her fellow natives were Element Lad, Blok, Mon-El, Chamelion Boy, Phantom Girl, and Triplicate girl/Duo Damsel/Triad. The rest were either exceptional members of their populations or gained their powers by accident (who, incidentally were among the most powerful),

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Beast.

 

OK, here's another one:

 

Who's more agile, Thor or Wonder Man? And by how much?

[Morningstar]

As for your asseertion that, 'whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't.' it might be better to say, 'Whenever he absolutely must not get hit, the writer won't let him get hit.' Thor gets clocked by opponents like the Hulk (DEX 15, +4 w/HTH) and the Juggernaut (Dex 8, +4 w/HTH) too often to justify a higher DEX.

 

Juggernaut 8 DEX? Says who? Who in the Champions Universe only has an 8 DEX?

 

What I am saying is look at the Champions Universe and the collection of Heroes & Villians. Look at the ones that are obvious take offs on existing marvel and DC characters, they do not have DEX scores taht low.

 

Warlord 20 DEX Ankylosaur 21 DEX So these 2 in there giant armored suits are as dextrous as a circus acrobat and THOR isnt?

 

The incredible pathetic Bulldozer 20 DEX Circus Acrobat?

 

Durak 23 Gargantua 20 Grond 18

 

What on earth would possess you to call THOR a 17-18?? Or Juggernaut an 8??

 

Now look at the non-melee types.

Gravitar(Graviton or Magneto) 25 DEX These are just normal not very athletic humans with powers.

Menton 24 Dex This guy doesn't even use his muscles.

 

Are you saying for some strange reason all the characters in Marvel are slower than the ones in Champions?

[Morningstar]

Nucleon is a big, big fan of Thor and the Avengers. He have most Thors since Journey Into Mystery no. 83, and He can tell Thor's no dodger. The most Defensive he gets is with the deflecting trick. Fast for such a big guy, but no ninja. Of late in Avengers, he is the bruised and battered one, is garnment slashed to shreds and helmet gone, but still at the vanguard of the action.

 

Thor was taking a pounding during the last group of stories when he was an Avenger because :

1 he was the only one on the team that could

2 The level of the threat was enormous.

 

You are talking about issues where:

1. The battled an army of Ultrons(seriously an army when one is ridiculously powerful)

2. An army of Hulks! (obvious enough)

3. Kangs futuristic army that enslaved the Earth and Nuked a major city wher emost of the Avengers were defeated and captured.

 

He has since left the Avengers after inheriting the Odinpower.

[Morningstar]

Sigh.

One more time for those hard of hearing.

First:

The term 'god' means little in the Marvel Universe. Superman is a superpowerful alien. Thor is half-Asgardian. Asgardians (just like other 'gods' in the Marvel Universe) are also...SUPERPOWERFUL ALIENS! Thor calls himself a 'god' because he allowed himself to be worshipped by Earthlings. In Marvel, 'god' is a title, and has no bearing on a fight. Obviously, to say Thor would win ANYTHING merely because he is a 'god' is nonsense.

 

I originally used the term GOD vs. MAN to illustrate that the WIZARD Magazine author used the terms to say they are in different classees of ability in terms of power and skill, the running talk of symantics is pointless. Wizard has now authored the opinion of Thor defeating Superman 3 times now.

 

Thors "other half" happens to be the Earth Godess Gaea. The Elder Godess worshiped as Mother Earth and the god of life opposed by Cthon the God of Death. She is considered part of the reason Thor is head and shoulders above the other Asgardians in terms of toughness and strength.

 

Lastly I think I have gone to great lengths to give specific reasons and examples of why I believe Thor would win this battle every time. Simply because he is a god is not one of them. Like I said before, I am sure Superman could defeat Sif, Heimdal, etc. Thor is just to much. Please read the whole thread again before asking me to repeat why.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost Who's more agile, Thor or Wonder Man? And by how much?

 

Aargh, says He. Not an easy one. Nucleon didn't look at Marvel's numbers for these, but He will none the less declare Thor more agile, by a meagre 2-3 pts.

 

(In pure DEX He means, not including CSLs)

[Nucleon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: About Superman's "Super Speed"

 

Originally posted by Oruncrest

I once read a comic where Cyclops used his optic blasts to fly. And I've never seen that again. If you scrape the bottom of the barrel long enough, you can find all sorts of drek to play with.

Indeed. In one Avenger number, Magneto actually controlled minds.

 

Actually, she's one of the myriad Supergirls in the DCU. And the last I checked, she's only had 2; The Pre-CRISIS cousin of the Earth-2 Superman, and the Post-CRISIS granddaughter of Arion.

Nucleon learned the tortuous origin of this heroine at Power Girl Online. Much confusion over such a nice character. Great pics too.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Morningstar

Sigh.

One more time for those hard of hearing.

First:

The term 'god' means little in the Marvel Universe. Superman is a superpowerful alien. Thor is half-Asgardian. Asgardians (just like other 'gods' in the Marvel Universe) are also...SUPERPOWERFUL ALIENS! Thor calls himself a 'god' because he allowed himself to be worshipped by Earthlings. In Marvel, 'god' is a title, and has no bearing on a fight. Obviously, to say Thor would win ANYTHING merely because he is a 'god' is nonsense.

 

I originally used the term GOD vs. MAN to illustrate that the WIZARD Magazine author used the terms to say they are in different classees of ability in terms of power and skill, the running talk of symantics is pointless. Wizard has now authored the opinion of Thor defeating Superman 3 times now.

 

Thors "other half" happens to be the Earth Godess Gaea. The Elder Godess worshiped as Mother Earth and the god of life opposed by Cthon the God of Death. She is considered part of the reason Thor is head and shoulders above the other Asgardians in terms of toughness and strength.

 

Lastly I think I have gone to great lengths to give specific reasons and examples of why I believe Thor would win this battle every time. Simply because he is a god is not one of them. Like I said before, I am sure Superman could defeat Sif, Heimdal, etc. Thor is just to much. Please read the whole thread again before asking me to repeat why.

 

I've read the thread. I'm the one who authored the original thread this one referenced. Thor is in my top 5 favorite superheroes. I totally agree Thor wins, although what Wizard says doesn't matter to me. I agree with most of reasons given here as to why Thor would win.

 

I was merely nitpicking the oftmentioned point about "Thor is 'god' so he wins". Its been used before. A character's particular origin means absolutely nothing in comics. Period.

 

If I was to compare Batman against Thor. I wouldn't say Batman loses because he's a 'normal' human and Thor is a 'god'. First off, EVERYONE is 'superhero/supervillain' in some form or other. There are no 'normal humans' in comics (which is why use of NCM in the superhero genre is plain nonsensical in my opinion).

 

I would argue based solely on their abilities displayed in comics.

 

In brief, Thor wins because both he and Supes have comparable power-levels, however, many of Thor's abilities are very suited to exploit Superman's weaknesses.

[Nuadha]

Originally posted by Starlord

 

If I was to compare Batman against Thor. I wouldn't say Batman loses because he's a 'normal' human and Thor is a 'god'. First off, EVERYONE is 'superhero/supervillain' in some form or other. There are no 'normal humans' in comics (which is why use of NCM in the superhero genre is plain nonsensical in my opinion).

 

We all know that Batman would win that fight too, right? Batman always wins!

[Oruncrest]

Morningstar says

Oruncrest said

As for your asseertion that, 'whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't.' it might be better to say, 'Whenever he absolutely must not get hit, the writer won't let him get hit.' Thor gets clocked by opponents like the Hulk (DEX 15, +4 w/HTH) and the Juggernaut (Dex 8, +4 w/HTH) too often to justify a higher DEX.

 

Juggernaut 8 DEX? Says who? Who in the Champions Universe only has an 8 DEX?

Joe & Jane normal, who Juggernaut is supposed to be slower than. In MSH, most normals have Typical(6) agility, which I always translate as 10 DEX. Jugg-head has Poor(4) agiility, which converts to an 8 DEX. Understand now?

 

What I am saying is look at the Champions Universe and the collection of Heroes & Villians. Look at the ones that are obvious take offs on existing marvel and DC characters, they do not have DEX scores that low.

 

Warlord 20 DEX Ankylosaur 21 DEX So these 2 in there giant armored suits are as dextrous as a circus acrobat and THOR isnt?

Lets look at some of those armored dues in MSH:

 

Iron Man: Remarkable(30) Agility, DEX 25

Vindicator: Incredible (40) Agility, DEX 30

Annihilus: Incredible (40) Agility, DEX 30

Beetle: Good (10) Agility, DEX 15

Crimson Dynamo: Incredible (40) Agility, DEX 30

Dr. Doom: Excellent (20) Agility, DEX 20

Mandroid: Good (10) Agility, DEX 15

Titanium Man: Remarkable(30) Agility, DEX 25

 

I haven't seen Warlord and I don't know who Ankylosaur was supposed to take from, so you'll have to tell me how they compare to their 'Parent Figures'.

 

The incredible pathetic Bulldozer 20 DEX Circus Acrobat?

 

Durak 23 Gargantua 20 Grond 18

 

What on earth would possess you to call THOR a 17-18?? Or Juggernaut an 8??

The easy answer is that I'm playing with the numbers from the MSH Game. Why did MSH give those numbers for these characters? That's because of one simple word:

 

CONCEPT!!!

 

Thor's concept is that of a brawler, he likes a good punch-up and is very good at it, as evidenced by his +13 Levels with HTH. However, he's also well known for throwing his hammer and clobbering someone from a distance, as well as deflecting long-range attacks. As a result, the writers of the MSH felt justifed to give him Excellent Agility. For the most part, I agree with their assessment, even though I think a 20 DEX (for his Ex. Agility) gives him too high a base DCV in melee. While I could use a whole bunch of game mechanics to correct this percieved flaw, the desire to KISS points out that an extra point or two of DCV is worth the (minor) irritation.

 

Juggernaut's concept is that he's unstoppable. Guns, missiles, fists, energy blasts, nothing can stop him once he gets started. However, he's slow and plodding, and it should take him a long time to get where he wants to go, which allows the defenders to throw their tanks and missiles and whatnot at him so he can ignore it all. After all, he's undtoppable. I think that having a lower Agility/DEX than most normals fits his concept, thus he has an 8 DEX.

 

Now let's look at some of the characters you mentioned:

 

Durak doesn't really have a concept, other than he's big and strong and good at fighting. I don't have any problem with 'fast bricks' per se, since the cliché 'How can something so big move so fast?' is common in comics.

 

I don't know Gargantua fom a hole in the ground. Sorry.

 

Grond is more dexterous than the Hulk by 3 points. The Hulk has a DEX of 15. I don't see a big departure from the base character here.

 

Bulldozer is OOC (Out of Concept) in my opinion. Here we have a slow-witted fellow who believes he's unstoppable. Why in Heaven's name does he have 3-4 CV over the security guards who're trying to stop him from knocking over a jewlery store? Saying that all your PCs have 20+ DEX doesn't cut it. Bulldozer should be laughing at their bullets, not ducking and dodging them.

 

Now look at the non-melee types.

Gravitar(Graviton or Magneto) 25 DEX These are just normal not very athletic humans with powers.

Magneto has Rm(30) agility/ 25 DEX. You are right though, they're both OOC. Maybe they're Advanced Generation Mutants. Graviton has Typical(6) agility/ 10 DEX. He's a threat to the Avengers because he can fly while many of his opponents are groundbound and his (60,60) Force Field, 0 END can keep those who can fly from hurting him. Much.

 

Menton 24 Dex This guy doesn't even use his muscles.

And with his 40 STR, that's a shame.

Why DOES he have a STR of 40 if he doen't use his muscles, anyway?

 

Are you saying for some strange reason all the characters in Marvel are slower than the ones in Champions?

Many of them are. Many of them fit the concept of 'Joe or Jane normal with a superpower' and make do with a 15 DEX. Many heroes in DC Heroes make do with a 11-18 DEX (not the titleholders, of course. They start at 23) in HERO. And may of them are expert fighters (Batman, Captain America, Nightwing), superhumanly fast (Silver Surfer, Superman, Wonder Woman), technologically aumented (Iron Man) or just That Damn Good (Green Lantern, Hawkeye, Vindicator) and can meet or exceed even the high-end Champions characters.

[Catacomb]

Originally posted by Starlord

 

In brief, Thor wins because both he and Supes have comparable power-levels, however, many of Thor's abilities are very suited to exploit Superman's weaknesses.

 

Yeah...like magic.

[Mayday]

Once a very long time ago in early Thor comics, they showed that Ragnarok happened but to the 'real' gods who died exactly as the mythology says they did. That Thor was red haired and bearded and wore dyed norse style animal skins while our Thor is blonde wearing high quality gear. That was how his Asgard escaped Ragnarok destruction, because they were not 'the Gods'.

 

I dont know what they are instead but I think that was debated 3 pages ago.

[Morningstar]

Onruncrest,

 

Thanks for actually using data in your opinion, it really does make it so much more credible and easier to discuss IMO.

 

Here is where I disagree with you:

 

Champions definition of Dexterity is a charcters:

1.agility

2. reaction time

3. accuracy

You can be amazing at throwing objects, or have great eye hand coordination and still not be great at dodging and moving. Champions defines these traits all as the same characteristic. Characters with normal human characteristics with superpowered energy blasts are not obliged to keep 10-15 dexterity scores and buy levels. The ones in the Champions material certainly do not.

 

First off I think MSH was a HORRIBLE game! The stats were done terribly and do not reflect the comic characters ability as shown in there true body of work, the years and years of comics themselves. MSH is a pale, simplistic shade of a game compared to Champions. Marvel has always done a poor job with editing the work of whoever stats for them. For a current example look at there web site and see some of the insane discrepancies. Here is one:

Captain America Strength 2.5 Agility 2.5 Reflexes 2.5 Fighting Skills 5.5

 

Wolverine Strength 3 (when did he become superhumanly strong? Cap is as strong as a normal human can be)

Agility 3 Reflexes 3 Fighting Skills 6.5!

When did Wolvering become superhumanly strong, fast, agile and a better fighter than Cap?

 

They are eliminating these stat bars as they update the characters but there were worse ones to. Look at poor daredevil. Strength 1 Durabilty 1 However his Agility is 3.5, higher than Cap's.

 

Lastly the conversion of MSH stats to Champions is strictly your interpretation. You could have just as easily rasied the Champions converted rate by 5 points.

 

Your last paragraph confused me as to how you were justifying a higher dex for certain characters, Green Lantern, Vindicator? Who is a "titleholder" and if it is just an iconic powerful character, well Thor is marvels Power Icon. I also think if you really read a lot of Thor and Avenger books you will see numerous examples of his speed that no human could possibly match.

[Catacomb]

Originally posted by Morningstar

Onruncrest,

 

Thanks for actually using data in your opinion, it really does make it so much more credible and easier to discuss IMO.

 

Here is where I disagree with you:

 

Champions definition of Dexterity is a charcters:

1.agility

2. reaction time

3. accuracy

You can be amazing at throwing objects, or have great eye hand coordination and still not be great at dodging and moving. Champions defines these traits all as the same characteristic. Characters with normal human characteristics with superpowered energy blasts are not obliged to keep 10-15 dexterity scores and buy levels. The ones in the Champions material certainly do not.

 

First off I think MSH was a HORRIBLE game! The stats were done terribly and do not reflect the comic characters ability as shown in there true body of work, the years and years of comics themselves. MSH is a pale, simplistic shade of a game compared to Champions. Marvel has always done a poor job with editing the work of whoever stats for them. For a current example look at there web site and see some of the insane discrepancies. Here is one:

Captain America Strength 2.5 Agility 2.5 Reflexes 2.5 Fighting Skills 5.5

 

Wolverine Strength 3 (when did he become superhumanly strong? Cap is as strong as a normal human can be)

Agility 3 Reflexes 3 Fighting Skills 6.5!

When did Wolvering become superhumanly strong, fast, agile and a better fighter than Cap?

 

They are eliminating these stat bars as they update the characters but there were worse ones to. Look at poor daredevil. Strength 1 Durabilty 1 However his Agility is 3.5, higher than Cap's.

 

Lastly the conversion of MSH stats to Champions is strictly your interpretation. You could have just as easily rasied the Champions converted rate by 5 points.

 

Your last paragraph confused me as to how you were justifying a higher dex for certain characters, Green Lantern, Vindicator? Who is a "titleholder" and if it is just an iconic powerful character, well Thor is marvels Power Icon. I also think if you really read a lot of Thor and Avenger books you will see numerous examples of his speed that no human could possibly match.

 

Wolverine's speed and agility are waaaayyyy above a normal humans as evidenced by his fights with Spider-Man, and the fact that it is talked about in the X-Men comic when Gambit, Jubilee, and Wolvie are playing basketball in one of the early Jim Lee issues. Also Wolvie just might be a better fighter than Cap...more training(Or training while Cap was frozen), and trained by some of the best martial arts masters in the world, he's just nowhere near the same strategist. BTW Wolverine has done things in the past that suggest he might be above the normal human levels of strength as well...not alot, but at least a little. Also Thor is not Marvels power Icon, that title falls to Strange(1600 Frickin pts.) or Silver Surfer(2k easy last time I tried to make him).

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Aargh, says He. Not an easy one. Nucleon didn't look at Marvel's numbers for these, but He will none the less declare Thor more agile, by a meagre 2-3 pts.

 

(In pure DEX He means, not including CSLs)

 

OK, then Thor's more agile than Beast.

 

Since Beast is more agile than Cap...

 

Thor's more agile than Cap!

 

See, I just proved that Kevin Bacon knows Thor and Superman. Cool, huh?

[Pattern Ghost]

The easy answer is that I'm playing with the numbers from the MSH Game. Why did MSH give those numbers for these characters? That's because of one simple word:

 

Here's the main problem with translating Champions DEX from MSH Agility:

 

THEY AREN'T THE SAME THING!

 

Until you realize that, you can't really use the MSH stats for characters as a basis for argument.

 

Champions DEX encompasses both Marvel Fighting AND Agility, and doesn't do so precisely since there are many ways to get the same effect in Champs (Skill levels, lightning reflexes, etc.)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

OK, then Thor's more agile than Beast.

Does ill compute.

 

Beast over Cap, then Thor, then WonderMan.

 

But then again, I didn't check at Marvel's...

 

And Kevin Bacon knows everything.

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Does ill compute.

 

Beast over Cap, then Thor, then WonderMan.

 

But then again, I didn't check at Marvel's...

 

And Kevin Bacon knows everything.

 

Kevin Bacon is the key...

[Oruncrest]

The Joy of DEX

 

Originally posted by Morningstar

Onruncrest,

 

Thanks for actually using data in your opinion, it really does make it so much more credible and easier to discuss IMO.

 

Here is where I disagree with you:

 

Champions definition of Dexterity is a charcters:

1.agility

2. reaction time

3. accuracy

You can be amazing at throwing objects, or have great eye hand coordination and still not be great at dodging and moving. Champions defines these traits all as the same characteristic.

And some might call that a flaw of the system, since the higher the number, the better you are with everything that falls under that stat (in this case, DEX). That's why there're Levels, so that if you absolutely suck at one stat aspect (say, DCV), the other aspects don't have to suffer as well.

 

Characters with normal human characteristics with superpowered energy blasts are not obliged to keep 10-15 dexterity scores and buy levels. The ones in the Champions material certainly do not.

No they don't. If their concept allows them to be able to run out in the middle of a warzone, blasting left, right, and center, hitting everything he aims at while casually evading all the return fire, then by all means, give this character a high DEX. Here's a couple of examples of having a high DEX:

 

My Captain America is 30 DEX. The average HYDRA agent has an OCV of 5, giving him a 9% chance of hitting Cap, while Cap has a 98% chance of hitting the agent (not counting his +4 Levels with HTH and +4 with his shield). This fits with scenes where Cap is leaping into a horde of HYDRA agents, punching and kicking anyone who has the misfortune to be in his range.

 

Bulldozer is DEX 20, that means that he has a DCV of 7. The average security guard has a DEX of 10 (OCV 3), and maybe +1 with his revolver. Bulldozer walks into a bank to hold it up (You're robbing it you moron. Stop trying to pick up the building). The two security guards pull out their guns and shoot at Bulldozer. The guards need to roll an 8 or less to hit. This means they only have a 26% chance to hit, or only 1 bullet out of every four fired by them will hit Bulldozer. Now, if you see Bulldozer casually evading gunfire as he robs the bank, then he has the right amount of DEX. If you see him wading thru a hail of gunfire, commenting about noisy mosquitos, then there is a problem with his DEX.

 

First off I think MSH was a HORRIBLE game! The stats were done terribly and do not reflect the comic characters ability as shown in there true body of work, the years and years of comics themselves. MSH is a pale, simplistic shade of a game compared to Champions. Marvel has always done a poor job with editing the work of whoever stats for them. For a current example look at there web site and see some of the insane discrepancies. Here is one:

Those stats are from the Marvel Superheroes Adventure Game (SAGA). I'm using the older Marvel Super Heroes game (MSH). They're two completely different systems. I can't stress that enough. I don't know beans about SAGA, and from the stats you found, I can see I didn't miss anything.

 

Your last paragraph confused me as to how you were justifying a higher dex for certain characters, Green Lantern, Vindicator? Who is a "titleholder" and if it is just an iconic powerful character, well Thor is marvels Power Icon. I also think if you really read a lot of Thor and Avenger books you will see numerous examples of his speed that no human could possibly match.

The Titleholder remark was made when I was looking through the 3rd DC Heroes RPG. While I was fliping thru the 'heroes' section, I noticed that, with the exception of Starfire, all the heroes who had a Dex of 7 or better (corresponding with a DEX of 23 in Champions) had starred or were starring in a book dedicated to that character. Thus they were 'titleholders'. For instance, Guy Gardner, who starred in his own book around the time of DCH 3, had a Dex of 7 (23 in HERO). Lobo had a Dex of 10 (30 in HERO). I'm sorry if you inferred any allusions to greatness from that reference. M'i bad.

[Pattern Ghost]

Marvel's own stat bars, while their accuracy is arguable, do give Thor a superhuman reflexes and agility rating:

 

http://www.marvel.com/bios/bios.htm?id=3&family=MARVEL+HEROES

 

Thor has a 4 in each stat. Cap is at 2.5. Human max used to be around 2 on these charts around the early 90's. (They used a similar scale on the Marvel Universe trading cards, which had text descriptions of each number rating. The general scheme was similar.) Incidentally, this ties his ratings in both with the Beast's ratings, and Spider-Man's in the same categories.

 

Thos has superhuman agility and reflexes, it's just not as apparent because he's way the heck up the superhuman scale in strength and durability. Bottom line, he's a cosmic-level hero just as much as someone like the Silver Surfer, and all of those guys tend to have at least low levels of superhuman attributes across the board, at least when the writers want to showcase them.

 

Of course, you could just ask Kevin Bacon.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Catacomb

Also Thor is not Marvels power Icon, that title falls to Strange(1600 Frickin pts.) or Silver Surfer(2k easy last time I tried to make him).

 

I wouldn't argue with you over Strange, but Thor has defeated SS one-on-one.

 

 

Another point: I have trouble doing literal translations of the original MSH game. It was amusing for a brief period, but this was essentially a broken system with wild inconsistencies in stats in my opinion.

 

Also, the stats given on the Marvel website are awful. They are about as far off as the top Strength levels in the Handbooks of the Marvel Universe.

 

If I had to use a system, I'd use the Marvel SAGA system, but those are hard to translate as well.

[Pattern Ghost]

Ever notice that nobody seems to have a 5 in agility or reflexes on the Marvel site? Is the number 5 magical or something? I'd say if Thor has a 4 (prob. should be about a 3, though), Spidey should have a 5 or 6.

[Nucleon]

Re: The Joy of DEX

 

Originally posted by Oruncrest

My Captain America is 30 DEX (...)(not counting his +4 Levels with HTH and +4 with his shield). This fits with scenes where Cap is leaping into a horde of HYDRA agents, punching and kicking anyone who has the misfortune to be in his range.

 

With all due respect sir Oruncrest, that high a DEX somewhat takes out the charm of Cap in my humble immortal opinion, who is at peak normal human level. I would put him at DEX 20 at its lowest, 23 at is highest, paid a double fare over 20. With the 30 pts the extra DEX costed, I would buy back the SPD (Ideally at 4) for 10 pts, take 5 extra CSL with (Generic) M-arts, and 2 SL with 3-related, DEX skills. In combat, I would cancel to dodge/block until my next phase, where I would put everything into offensive, preferably at the end of the phase, so I could cancel again fast if need be.

 

He does that a lot in Avengers. Skilled, experienced and dedicated instead of surhuman.

 

The problem is, Champion characters don't have to sell like in the comic biz. They have to be more complete combat masters to effectively survive, because the trials come from dices rather than by scenarist. So yes, they're more effective, sometime without hurting the concept, sometimes not. That Cap you made is probably more suited to a Champion game than the "real" one.

[Morningstar]

Also Thor is not Marvels power Icon, that title falls to Strange(1600 Frickin pts.) or Silver Surfer(2k easy last time I tried to make him).

 

 

I certainly wouldn't have Dr. Strange being more points than Thor. Strange can be done almost entirely with a Variable magic pool. Thor has to have an enormous cosmic power pool and ridicuouls physical stats as well, same with Silver Surfer.

 

My Captain America is 30 DEX (...)(not counting his +4 Levels with HTH and +4 with his shield). This fits with scenes where Cap is leaping into a horde of HYDRA agents, punching and kicking anyone who has the misfortune to be in his range.

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I think 30 is right on for most of Caps stats. I think the creation of Telios as the perfect man set that up for him. He is the strongest, fastest, and most durable a human can be. Not just before he starts paying double points. I understand you feel most of champions characters have too high of a dex score but that is the way the writers of the game have set the bar for us. I wouldnt make Cap less dextrous than most of the normal martial artists they have created. That would defy the fact that he is human perfection.

[Oruncrest]

Originally posted by Morningstar70

How does Dex 7 in DCH translate to Dex 23?

 

I used to simply add 1 to the DCH Dex to get the base CV and multiply by 3 (i.e. (Dex 7+1 = 8 CV ×3 = 24 DEX), then I found some conversion notes by Aaron Sulivan that fit more with my way of thinking.

 

For a Dex of 10 or less, multiply Dex by 2.5 and add 5 (i.e. Dex 7×2.5 = 18 + 5 = 23 DEX).

 

For a Dex over 10, subtract 10 from the Dex, multiply the reamainder by 2, and add 30 (for instance, Superman has a Dex of 15 in DCH, 15 - 10 = 5 × 2 = 10 +30 = 40 DEX.)