Old Wounds Reopened. Supes/Thor

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Acroyear

So it's your opinion that Thor's hammer is not as/only as "hard" as his fist?

 

I'm saying at Supes' and Thor's respective power levels it shouldn't make a difference whether they hit you with their fists, uru mallets, adamantium crowbars, etc. They are ALL superhard objects coming at you with superfast speed.

 

The rest we can agree to (slightly) disagree. I presented the hammer's abilities as I've seen in Thor/Avengers comics. I'll gladly claim bias as Thor is one of my favs.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Starlord

I hate to bring 'realistic' science into this type of argument, but at that level of power your argument has no merit. A hammer hits harder than my fist because its made of a harder substance than a human hand (metal or wood) and often because of its extra weight.

A hammer or other item with a handle also hits harder because the extra length adds more leverage. Thats why spear throwers such as Neolithic man used work, and why a guy with a 2 foot spear thrower can throw an identical spear nearly twice as far.

 

Doubt it? Hit something with a fist-sized rock as hard as you can. Then attach that same rock to an 18" handle and try it again. Waaay more power.

 

Just thought I'd throw this in since we're having a realistic scientific discussion of whether an alien can defeat a god.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by majorvictory

Good points, one and all. But you're all missing one extremely important point. The current-era Supes has been active for about 10 years. Thor is a warrior god of a warrior people who has about 1500 years of combat exp. under that Belt of Strength. Supes is truly the icon of superhero icons, but Thor's just a darn good fighter who's seen it all. Case closed.

 

That was before Superman and Wonder Woman got sent into a Ragnarock-type battle against demons for 1000 years...

[starblaze]

Well I think we are also missing out on SuperMans other abilities aside from just superstrength. Remember that Clark doesn't have to get close to Thor in order to hurt him. He not only has heat vision he also has super-breath and independent flight. Thor needs his hammer to get around, SuperMan doesn't. Also even though SuperMan has only been active for about 10 years he also has access to Kryptonion knowledge and tactics.

 

Also on the subject of Thor's hammer, what if SuperMan disarms Thor, does that even the odds. I mean all he would have to do is heat vision his hand and make Thor drop Mjornir and then use superspeed to pummel.

 

All I am saying is don't just rule the Big Blue Boy Scout out just yet.

[Crimson Arrow]

Well Thor wouldn't drop the hammer if he was wearing Jarn Grieper (I think his gauntlets got into Marvel Comics at some point). That could come as a surprise to Supes! In fact that would be an excellent feature of a fight between these two.

 

Reading all these posts makes me think that Round 1 goes to Thor. Superman recovers, does some research/uses Kryptonian technology and doesn't hold back and wins Round 2. Then they team up and take out Loki and Lex Luthor who are obviously the ones behind the fight in the first place.

[Morningstar]

Thor vs. Superman

 

Supermans "other powers", which always means heat vision, are nothing compared to Thors"other powers". Thor routinely, not rarely, uses, energy powers to blast, drain, blind, remove enchatments, refect attacks back, teleport, teleport foes to alternate dimensions, etc. His energy blasts can knock down mountains, punch holes through celestials armor, drain ultron or the presence of there powers etc. Heat Vision?? Come on, do you really think Thor is going to be bothered by heat vision when firelords blasts dont stop him. He is just simply a much more diverse powerful character. Gladiators heat vision and speed didn't stop him.

 

I don't think the "magic" issue about Thors hammer would inherently bother Superman, but if he needed it Thor could certainly bring it up, like for example removing the Juggernauts force field with a spell to allow him to pumel him.(just one of Thors many examples of being able to whip up anything he needs)

 

If you are just talking about a toe to toe slugfest, than these two iconic characters poiund on each other for days but pulling out all the stops, Thor has way too much.

 

Someone brought up "Hyperion" one of the JLA ripoffs that copied Superman. Hyperion was powerful enough to push wonderman through the center of the planet and break his bones with blows, but has been beaten every time he faces Thor

[Morningstar]

Thors Power

 

BTW, Thor no longer has an alter ego and the hammer's powers do not transfer or transform anyone else who grabs it. Odin removed that quite a while ago.

 

Also Thor is currently the Lord of Asgard and has all of Odins former power as well. I am sure it won't stay that way but currently a fight between them wouldn't be remotely close.(Thor just reassembled the moon molecule by molecule after it was destroyed)

[Nuadha]

Superman's other powers: Heat Vision, Super-speed, Super-breath, Flight, Super-hearing, Microscopic Vision, Telescopic Vision, X-Ray Vision, Time Travel, The ability to survive prolonged periods in the vacuum of space, Super-ventriloquism (No Joke! Pre-crisis!), Amnesia kisses (Superman 2), Repair-the-great-wall-of-China Vision (Superman 4), Spiritual Combat (recent issues- through a Kryptonian Martial Art).

 

I know I'm missing a few.

[Nuadha]

As far as Thor being a god, Superman recently beat the snot out of Darkseid, a god, in one-on-one combat.

[Morningstar]

Thor vs. Superman

 

What everyone means by others powers in this conversation is powers that could actually help defeat a powerful opponent like we are debating. I dont think Super ventrilaquism will help him defeat Thor. and I don't think anyone feels the cheesy powers from the movies exist in the comics. Other powers also didn't mean super speed as that is just as much an inherent part of him as invulnerability or strength.

[Morningstar]

"."As far as Thor being a god, Superman recently beat the snot out of Darkseid, a god, in one-on-one combat.

 

What I believe the Wizard magazine author was trying to point out was the relative power differences in the two. This is not to say every comic god is better in combat than every mortal. It is safe to say that Ares or Sif(of Marvel) wouln't be able to handle the Juggernaut. He was simply stating that Thor is too much for Superman, that all.

[Nuadha]

Not having read any recent Thor comics, I'm not really arguing whether current-Supes could beat current Thor. I just want to make sure that it known that Superman's "other powers" includes more than heat-vision and that the argument that Thor wins because he's a god doesn't hold up. Besides Darkseid, one of the most powerful beings in the DC universe, the current Superman has fought in the battle of Ragnorok side-by-side with DC's Thor and fought the Mayan Quetzacoatl (and if I remember correctly, he won).

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

A hammer or other item with a handle also hits harder because the extra length adds more leverage. Thats why spear throwers such as Neolithic man used work, and why a guy with a 2 foot spear thrower can throw an identical spear nearly twice as far.

 

Doubt it? Hit something with a fist-sized rock as hard as you can. Then attach that same rock to an 18" handle and try it again. Waaay more power.

 

Just thought I'd throw this in since we're having a realistic scientific discussion of whether an alien can defeat a god.

 

Completely agree, the whip-like action of a bat or similar object enables you to generate more speed...but I still don't think it any of that applies when mountain-shattering punches can already be thrown by these two individuals.

[levi]

Wizard Magazine's Last Man Standing

 

Wizard finally did this match up in their Last Man Standing feature this month. In their summation it was the magic lightning generated by Mjolnir that finished Supes off, not the hammer blows themselves.

[Starlord]

Can't believe I have to defend Supes here, but I don't think the fact that Thor is a 'god' matters one bit. In the Marvel Universe, 'gods' are essentially extradimensional superpowerful aliens. Take out the XD part, and you've got Supes. One is powered by magic, the other by yellow sun radiation (or whatever...Supes has been changed so much who knows what his actual origin is anymore. I prefer the nice simple version that I provided.).

[Acroyear]

Re: Thor vs. Superman

 

I'd agree, the magic lightning would batter Supes down. It's the blow by blow part where I imagine it would be drawn out (is Supes stronger than Thor, anyway?). I haven't been keeping up with the current Thor. I'm sure he'll be de-powered in a while... sounds like he's totally over the top now.

[William Bushway]

I think Thor's only handicap in such a fight is that he's not a quick thinker. He's pretty easily tricked and suprised.

 

And as for the hammer not making a difference because their punches can level mountains by themselves? I would say that a mountain-shattering punch from either character could be taken by the other. So if they're evenly matched in the strength/invulnerability department, the hammer is an advantage.

 

Assuming the mystical "uru" metal is hard enough not to shatter when hitting Supes' skin (I'd bet it is, especially factoring in the enchantment), using the hammer allows Thor to apply his full strength on the target without breaking his hand.

 

Think about it - if you and I are otherwise evenly matched, and you're unarmed and I have a sledgehammer (and I have the strength and 1500 years of practice to use it), I will be able to hit you harder than you hit me.

 

And if you go by the interpretation that enchanted items utterly bypass Supes' invulnerability, he'd be just like a normal guy being hit by Thor's hammer (with Thors godly strength behind it). Chunky salsa anyone?

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by William Bushway

Think about it - if you and I are otherwise evenly matched, and you're unarmed and I have a sledgehammer (and I have the strength and 1500 years of practice to use it), I will be able to hit you harder than you hit me.

 

i agree with what you are saying but this is a REALLY bad example because that sladge hammer would still slow you down, giving me a speed advantage now supes is faster than thor but thor can hit harder and he doesn't move slower because of his hammer.

[KawangaKid]

Originally posted by Starlord

I hate to bring 'realistic' science into this type of argument, but at that level of power your argument has no merit. A hammer hits harder than my fist because its made of a harder substance than a human hand (metal or wood) and often because of its extra weight.

A hammer hits harder than a fist because it's made of a harder substance, has a bit of extra weight... and is a simple machine called a lever.

[Bazza]

To My mind, Thor is not a "magical" person per say ie there is nothing inheiriantly magical about the Thunder God. From the two links provided above by Acroyear it stated that uru was an heirant mystical element that can hold enchantment. Q: does "mystical" = "magical"?

 

It was hinted in Thor about #491 that the Asgardian Gods in Marvel are extraterristical beings just like a certain wunder-alien. Thor is no more "god" than Morgan le Fey. Remember that the Marvel Gods retreated to their otherworldly realms and left mortalkind alone. If the current Marvel superheroes were transplanted back then, would they be viewed as the Asgardian Gods (and others) were...as "gods"?

 

To Me Thor = god is about perspectitve, there is many mortals on NYC who doubt that Thor is "god".

 

Also no-one has yet brought up Asgard's Destroyer Armour or the fact that Thor's mother is Gaea. Can you guess by bias? Thor fan.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by William Bushway

And if you go by the interpretation that enchanted items utterly bypass Supes' invulnerability, he'd be just like a normal guy being hit by Thor's hammer (with Thors godly strength behind it). Chunky salsa anyone?

 

 

Which was part of the point of this post. That does not appear to be the case.

[Pattern Ghost]

Of course, we all know the Tick would win.

 

SPOON!

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Morningstar70

If the hammer is not considered magical (and if it's not, what books have you been reading?)

 

No one says the hammer isn't magical to some degree. The debate is wether or not the impact from the hammer is magic special effect or if it's mundane. Everything I could find doesn't say anything about the damage of the hammer being magically enhanced in any way, meaning impacts from it are mundane.

 

It's nigh unbreakable property is not even a form of enchantment, either... it is simply a property of the metal (like, say, adamantium or whatever). Another property is that it can hold enchantments. That's it.

 

Quoting found info again (if anyone has better info out there, share share share)...

 

Beta Ray's

The enchanted hammer Stormbreaker, made of mystic uru metal, which is nearly indestructible, and given the following enchantments by Odin. 1) No living being, unless he/she be worthy, can lift the hammer. 2) It will return to the exact spot from which it was thrown. 3) It enables the wielder to control the elements of storm and to project forms of mystical energy. 4) It enables the wielder to open trans-dimensional portals. 5) It enables Beta Ray Bill to transform himself into his mortal (non-cyborg) form. 6) It enables the wielder to fly.

 

And Thor's (note below the text "besides being nearly indestructable, it has been given six enchantments" indicating its hardness is not part of the enchantment).

 

Thor wields the enchanted hammer named Mjolnir, one of the most formidable weapons known to man or god. Forged out of the mystical metal uru, whose chief properties are durability and ability to maintain enchantment, the hammer is 2 feet long and its handle is wrapped in leather which terminates in a thong. Besides being a nearly indestructible throwing weapon, the hammer has been given six enchantments by Odin to augment its physical qualities

 

No living being can lift the hammer from the ground unless he or she is worthy. Provisions to that enchantment require that there can be but one worthy wielder of the hammer at a given time, and the current wielder must be bested in fair combat by a worthy contestant in order for that contestant to win it.

 

Causes the hammer to return to the exact spot from which it is thrown after striking its target.

 

Enables its wielder to summon the elements of storm (wind, rain, thunder, and lightning) by stamping its handle once on the ground.

 

Enables the hammer to open interdimensional portals, allowing its wielder to travel to other dimensions, such as from Earth to Asgard. (It is now know how Thor determines which dimension he wishes to travel to.)

 

Given the hammer by Odin in recent times, enables Thor to transform into the guise of a mortal, physician Donald Blake, by stamping the hammer's head to the ground twice. A provision of this enchantment requires that the hammer can not be out of Thor' s hand for more than one minute without his spontaneous reversion to his mortal self. When Thor transforms to Blake, his hammer takes the appearance of a gnarled wooden walking stick. So disguised, the hammer's enchantments limiting those who could lift it are not in effect.

 

The hammer had one enchantment that has been rescinded. Formerly the hammer could be swung in such a way as to generate chronal displacement inertia enabling its wielder to travel through time. This property, discrete from the hammer's dimension-spanning ability, was recently taken away by Immortus, whose mastery over time exceeds that of the gods themselves.

 

By throwing the hammer and grasping its leather thong, Thor can magically propel himself through the air in the semblance of flight. Just as the hammer can magically change its course in order to return to his hand when he thew it, so can it be influenced by its wielder to change its course while it was in his grasp. The precise manner in which Thor "steers" his hammer while in flight is no known, nor is the precise speed and distance Thor can attain with a single throw. Thor has been observed to be able to attain escape velocity from Earth's gravity with a single throw and to overtake space vessels.

 

Superman's vulnerability is to magic. Not to magically enchanted objects. There is a difference. Magic affects him as if he were mortal. If it were a magic sword that cuts better than a sword should due to enchanment, then, yes... it cuts him. If it were a magic sword that gives its owner nightvision and doesn't affect how the damage strikes, at all... then I'd say no.

 

This, essentially, is what we're trying to determine and to which I can find no actual evidence to the contrary of my stated position.

 

Supes is still in trouble when it comes to that magic lightning, though.

 

[Morningstar]

I dont think it really matters if the hammers damage is magical(I really have never seen an indication that the damage is magical, just pure blunt force) Thor has been fighting other gods, giants, cosmic beings of massive proportions for thousands of years. His battle skills are unmatched.

 

The argument about Superman being too fast is lame since Thor has never had a problem hitting ultra fast beings. It doesn't get faster than the Silver Surfer, and Thor had no trouble pounding him unconcious in there last fight. Here are some decent examples:

 

GLADIATOR- KOed Thing with one blow, a feat never accomplished by the Hulk or anyone else, then "blew out" the Human Torch with his super breath(sound familiar), before uprooting a skyscraper on the rest of the team. His heat vision supposedly had the "power of a thousand suns" Against Thor he was beat down both times without any tricks. His super speed and heat vision didn't make a difference. It might not seem fair to compare Superman to obvious rip offs of him by Marvel but it is still comic lore and it is all we have to go on when comparing heroes from different companies.

 

HYPERION- the most obvious of all Superman ripoffs, He was strong enough to break Wondermans bones, and push him through an entire planet. He even had x-ray vision and was vulnerable to one specific element. He was the Superman of the Squadron Supreme, a total JLA ripoff or intentional jab from Marvel to make them lose to the Avengerrs. Thor beat him down with little problem.

 

If you really pull out the stops and say it is not just a slugfest but a true battle to the death, look at Thors "other" powers. He can truly do whatever needs to be done. In Champions terms he has a Cosmic variable power pool with a boatload of points! When he analysed the Force Field of the Juggernaut, he was able to simply remove it with his hammer so he could pummel him with his fists, when he was phased into concrete and his atoms merged with the ground leaving him crippled he decided to "unmerge himself" What would Superman do in this situation?? Nothing or wait for help from someone with magic ability.

Thor has also many times absorbed or drained powers at range. He sucked in all of Ultrons power and sent it up into the atmosphere to detonate like a nuke. He absorbed all of the radiation powers of the Presense an enormously powerful radiation based villain.

 

What would stop Thor from sucking all the yellow radiation right out of Superman?? A writer from D.C. would be about the only defense.

 

These are just examples without pulling out the"magic" card but if need be Thor can even add the power of his life force to blows, making them powerful enough to punch through Celestials armor.

 

If you are simply a Superman fan, I understand but I am a Spiderman fan and I still don't think he can take Superman.

[Marcus]

Well, from what I understand a JLA vs Avengers crossover is in the making... which perhaps will go a long way to giving us a 'canon' answer to this one.

 

I suppose the real answer is how smart either character is being that particular day and/or which one gets a clue quickest... both Thor and Superman frequently being walking, talking examples of 'Powers make you stupid'