Old Wounds Reopened. Supes/Thor

[Acroyear]

You know the ol' argument that Thor would totally creamulate the man of steel because he's "magical" and Superman would be paste?

 

 

That might not seem to be the case...

 

As she gets to her feet and sees the red and blue blur of her opponent streaking towards her she realises that although he is her friend, she must have no questions of conscience. Using all her might, she clouts him with a double handed blow, hitting him so hard that had they not been in the vaccum of space, the blast from the blow would have echoed for a hundred miles!

 

One might say that Thor's godly strength is no different than Wonder Woman's. Or Captain Marvel's. Cap usually has the upper hand in these fights, though (and there has been more than just the Kingdom Come face off).

 

Since the lightning Thor calls isn't really "magic lightning" either... but actual lightning... that's a no go, imo.

 

I'd say that, discounting Supe's speed (which we can't deny he has but can all agree he doesn't use to best efficiency) I'd say it might not be the punk-fest some forsee. It'll hurt Supes, but he won't be a splattered. He comes back after that WW punch... not really all that damaged.

 

As he is sent flying, he too realises that he has been pulling his own punches because his opponent is both a woman and a friend. As of right now though, that ends!

 

He finally collides with one of the massive stone columns from the ruined city and using his super strength, lifts the massive carving above his head...

 

Just something to consider when it inevitably comes around again.

 

Doncha just hate it?

[Acroyear]

Figures...

 

Here's the smack...

 

[Enforcer84]

True about the strength, but I always assumed the "magical" effect was that of the Enchanted Uru Hammer Bouncing off blueblack hair.

 

Supes forgets his superspeed on a daily basis.

 

I think Thor vs Superman would be a smackdown slugfest of epic proportions with both men compliementing the other's power, skill, and determination.

 

Then an audience poll would declare Batman the winner.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Enforcer84

Then an audience poll would declare Batman the winner.

 

Heh heh.

 

Well, I was just commenting, really, on the oft held belief (even by me on occasion) that the strength or the hammer would turn Supes into jello. However, we've seen time and time again that it isn't the case. It hurts him, but it seems to hurt him little more than one strong guy punching another strong guy real hard... be it magic fist, magic steel girder, or whatever...

 

I saw this while wandering and decided to share.

[Insaniac99]

i don't think it is the strength they are tlaking about, it is actual magical things i thought, not things derived from magic, for example the Captain marvel has his strength from Magic, but he doesn't really hit harder to supes (last i checked i am out of the loop with Comics) but magical weapons (like WW's sword such as in Kingdom come) and since Thor's hammer is magical, it would HURT much more, i think... i wouldn't say it would pulp supes like others say but he would feel it a whole lot harder than if thor had just hit him with his fist.

 

this is just my guess though...

[Gary]

How many points of enviromental movement do you have to buy, to fight in Wonder Woman's high heels without penalty?

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Insaniac99

since Thor's hammer is magical, it would HURT much more, i think... i wouldn't say it would pulp supes like others say but he would feel it a whole lot harder than if thor had just hit him with his fist.

 

Well, Thor's hammer is made of magical metal. There's nothing, as far as I know know, to indicate it is enchanted to do more damage than the strength behind it (except maybe to giants). The hardness of the metal allows it to survive such tremendous blows. That is, if Captain America swings the hammer, I don't think he's going to be toppling skyscrapers and such. Someone might have better info there, though.

 

I also don't much expect Thor could take a magic wand and stab Supes through the chest just on the principle that it's a "magic" wand, y'know?

 

WW's sword we know is magical (since it cut him)... but nothing else. It may be enchanted to do more damage (like a common D&D magic sword)... for all we know, anyone with the sword can cut through a vault door like butter. It's a tough one to include in the discussion, really.

 

We might assume Superman is clumsier than us humans when it comes to handling sharp or pointy objects and, thus, no damage enchantment is needed. Or, he may actually be more cautious with such things since his great strength could easily destroy most objects. So I guess that's a personal decision again

[Killer Shrike]

I think Supes bought his Super Speed with RSR: Int -- which explains why he regularly forgets he has it.

[Lord Liaden]

Sorry, not again.

 

For me, the last poll/discussion thread on this subject pretty much hashed it out to death. Anyone interested can check it out here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58&highlight=thor+AND+superman

 

Please continue to debate as you wish - I think I'll sit this one out.

[Crimson Arrow]

Lord Liaden's right of course, but I didn't enter the argument last time.

 

In the legends, Mjolnir was magical. It was forged by dwarfs in a contest to produce magic items for three of the Norse gods. Even taking into account the differences between Marvel Thor and the mythological one, the hammer is obviously magical. It allows Thor to travel dimensionally, always returns to his hand and can summon lightning (in the comics).

 

If Cap used the hammer, maybe he could not knock down a building, but isn't the test how much damage Mjolnir does compared to another similar-sized hammer wielded by the same person? You could say it's only because it's made of uru, or whatever and is therefore heavier and harder than the materials used in an ordinary warhammer, but I think the dwarfs would have been pretty slack not to make it a great weapon.

 

As to the magic wand. I think some writers would hold that it did hurt Superman. I don't think I would, but Mjolnir is a magic weapon, designed and enchanted as such.

 

They may have changed this (I have barely read any Marvel stuff for 10 years), but the Marvel version of the hammer used to be able to project an energy beam from the hammer itself. I am pretty certain that would be a magical attack.

 

I have been wondering if Superman should not be written up with a multipower or VPP of some description. He never seems capable of using superspeed at the same time as using ALL of his strength. His battles with Doomsday seem to evidence this. While Doomsday is very fast, I do not think he has speed like Superman's, yet Superman never seems to outpace Doomsday.

 

As to WW's sword, Superman's probably so used to handling sharp objects with impunity that he is not careful around them.

 

Just my 2p worth!

[Starlord]

I started the last big Supes/Thor thread, and I've seen it argued a dozen or so times. I don't recall anyone plausibly making the argument that a magical character's 'strength' could damage Supes (actually this is the first I've even seen it mentioned).

 

Thor's hammer is obviously a magic weapon (and if you hold to actual myth, it was so 'powerful and blazing hot' that Thor needed a magical glove just to grab it). As a general rule in the comics, when Thor hits with Mjolnir its a bigger wallop than a punch from his fist. Thor once asked Odin to allow him to fight the Hulk without the hammer so the fight would be 'fair'.

 

I think the 'magic weapon' producing all sorts of magic effects (such as XD movement USABLE ON OTHERS , and his Anti-Energy beam) gives him the edge. It'd be more equal if Supes ever used his superspeed.

[Nuadha]

In Champions terms, I see it this way: Supes has no Power Defense against magic and can be transformed, drained and everything else by sorcerers, whether it's Dr. Fate or Mr. Myxzptlk. However, if the Socrcerer cast a spell to make Batman superstrong, Batman's punch would still be against Superman's amazing, but not completely invulnerable, hardened rPD and Damage Reduction.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by Nuadha

In Champions terms, I see it this way: Supes has no Power Defense against magic and can be transformed, drained and everything else by sorcerers, whether it's Dr. Fate or Mr. Myxzptlk. However, if the Socrcerer cast a spell to make Batman superstrong, Batman's punch would still be against Superman's amazing, but not completely invulnerable, hardened rPD and Damage Reduction.

 

Then again, Supes clearly has a vulnerability to the base attacks of magical creatures. Action Comics Annual #1 (Arthur Adams art) has Supes raked by the claws of a vampire. A 1d6k (mayby 2d6) and it cut him. Clearly his rPD was not effective vs. claws from a creature that is magical.

 

What is the difference between the claws of a magical creature and the fist of a magical creature? In game terms, killing damage vs. normal damage. Supes seems to have enormous rPD/rED and probably some Damage Reduction (putting him at the "nigh invulnerable" level)... but the Damage resistance has "Not vs. magical attacks or magical creatures."

 

Therefore, Thor or WW's fists don't do extra damage... nor would a shot from Mjolnir (as that is still normal damage, in my book) but Mjolnier is probably an extra 10d6 damage on top of Thor's STR... so it is a huge hit, as well.

 

 

Oh... and Supes probably has Vulnerability: Magical Attacks, x2 Effect (not Stun or Body) to make Drains, etc., very effective on him, if magical.

[Blue]

Can't we get to a more life affirming argument? Like Jesus v. Superman? ("I've got you now, superman! I've... um... changed all your water into wine. There! That'll show you.")

 

I may mock, but I actually like these sorts of things.

 

The unfortunate part of this is that you can come up with a time when each one of them (Thor and Superman) did the impossible or was felled by the impossible, because they've each had hundreds of different writers with different takes on the character's level of ability.

 

Does anyone remember the old Avengers issue where they fought a group of superheroes who were basically JLA knockoffs? (I want to say they had a snappy name like the Squadron Superme?) Was Thor part of that Avengers team? I'd like to remember what the take was of the writers in that one regarding their fight (although it would admittedly be very stilted toward Marvel).

[Nuadha]

Originally posted by RDU Neil

Then again, Supes clearly has a vulnerability to the base attacks of magical creatures. Action Comics Annual #1 (Arthur Adams art) has Supes raked by the claws of a vampire. A 1d6k (mayby 2d6) and it cut him. Clearly his rPD was not effective vs. claws from a creature that is magical.

 

What is the difference between the claws of a magical creature and the fist of a magical creature? In game terms, killing damage vs. normal damage. Supes seems to have enormous rPD/rED and probably some Damage Reduction (putting him at the "nigh invulnerable" level)... but the Damage resistance has "Not vs. magical attacks or magical creatures."

 

Therefore, Thor or WW's fists don't do extra damage... nor would a shot from Mjolnir (as that is still normal damage, in my book) but Mjolnier is probably an extra 10d6 damage on top of Thor's STR... so it is a huge hit, as well.

 

 

Oh... and Supes probably has Vulnerability: Magical Attacks, x2 Effect (not Stun or Body) to make Drains, etc., very effective on him, if magical.

 

Good point, Neil. I did think of that annual and a few instances with magic swords as the few cases where I remember physical magical attacks as affecting Superman and was ready to chalk that up as the writers and leave that out of "my Champions version of Superman", but I think you're right that every time he's shown a real vulnerability to magical attacks, its been a killing attack.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Starlord

As a general rule in the comics, when Thor hits with Mjolnir its a bigger wallop than a punch from his fist. Thor once asked Odin to allow him to fight the Hulk without the hammer so the fight would be 'fair'.

 

If I hit someone with a hammer from the hardware store, it's a much bigger whallop than if I hit someone with my fist. That does not make the impact damage "magical."

 

It's a weapon. It's supposed to strike harder than a bare fist. The question is, does it strike harder than a weapon made of such material & backed with such strength? Is the damage actually enhanced by magic? I know of no instance were this is even hinted at.

 

I'm pointing out that none of Thor's actual common damaging effects are anything but mundane. Hitting with a hammer, normal lightning bolts. If you start tossing in extremely rare powers, you have to allow Supes to do the same (in which case, Thor is no match). The most common "Thor wins" argument is that Thor is magical and Superman is defenseless against magic. I'm just pointing out that this doesn't seem to be a very accurate point.

 

Superman freqently does seem to be on the losing side when up against magic themed characters (like Captain Marvel... I believe he's had the upper hand in every fight I've read) but it's certainly not *bap* oh, Mr. Kent is now a smear on the rug.

 

Like I said, I came across this WW fight while wandering and felt it was somewhat thought provoking.

[Hermit]

I still think they'd end up sharing a drink and comparing hair care tips.

[Insaniac99]

Originally posted by Acroyear

It's a weapon. It's supposed to strike harder than a bare fist. The question is, does it strike harder than a weapon made of such material & backed with such strength? Is the damage actually enhanced by magic? I know of no instance were this is even hinted at.

 

I seem to remember that when thor gets really ticked off and is hitting the hardest he can a glow or something surrounds the hammer and trails as he swings it, since Thor's power is magical and he is increaseing the damage with this energy then it would hurt more against Supes...

 

 

i don't think he would be splatted in one hit but i think maybe also thte Damage reduction is bought "not against magical attacks or attacks from magical beings" so he still gets his regular PD and ED but then he doesn't get to use his Damage reduction so he isn't splattered but he gets hit harder than he would anyway...

[Klytus]

How this fight would end all depends on how Supes is built. I agree with the idea that folks have put forward on this board, that in Champs terms, Superman's Resistant Defenses and Damage Reduction have the Lim: Not vs Magic. However, he still does have huge amounts of PD & ED, and insane CON to back it up. In the War of the Gods thread (many years ago) he once intercepted a blast of pure magic that was meant to 'nuke' Paradise Island. The blast knocked him out cold, and he didn't absorb the entire blast- he only weakened it - but that is still an impresive amount of toughness for a man vulnerable to magic.

 

So, even if we define Thor's hammer as a "magical" SFX attack, it still isn't going to smear the Big S. It'll sure hurt him more than he would expect, but once he knows how much it can hurt him, Supes will take that into consideration for the rest of the fight.

 

And yes, Superman does remember that he has super-speed. But as was so cleanly defined in the Man of Steel mini-series when he was "remade" in the early 90's, he is in the habbit of holding back because most people he fights aren't even as remotely powerful as he is. But once you show Big Blue what kind of punishment is required to take you down, he can dish it out in spades.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Insaniac99

I seem to remember that when thor gets really ticked off and is hitting the hardest he can a glow or something surrounds the hammer and trails as he swings it, since Thor's power is magical and he is increaseing the damage with this energy then it would hurt more against Supes...

 

I don't think I've seen that. But if that's the case, I'd say Supes is in a heap more trouble, myself

 

I have seen the godforce bolts and such (and we know they hit hard... they've stopped Juggernaut while moving! Well, until the ground him exploded from the insane pressure that caused) but I kind of consider that so rarely used it should be lumped in with Superman traveling through time by flying real fast.... that is, not really counted.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Acroyear

If I hit someone with a hammer from the hardware store, it's a much bigger whallop than if I hit someone with my fist. That does not make the impact damage "magical."

 

It's a weapon. It's supposed to strike harder than a bare fist. The question is, does it strike harder than a weapon made of such material & backed with such strength? Is the damage actually enhanced by magic? I know of no instance were this is even hinted at.

 

I hate to bring 'realistic' science into this type of argument, but at that level of power your argument has no merit. A hammer hits harder than my fist because its made of a harder substance than a human hand (metal or wood) and often because of its extra weight.

 

In other words, if I ripped your arm off and beat you with it, it ain't gonna do much more damage than my fist.

 

Thor's fists (and Supes for that matter) don't 'give' like a human being. If the hammer is just an extension of that, it has no particular reason to do more damage.

 

Frankly, I'm flat out stunned at your last sentence I quoted. My first thought was "Has he ever READ an issue of Thor or the Avengers?" I'm SURE that is not the case, though.

 

It is suggested dozens of times throughout both comics. There are numerous statements by Thor alluding to this fact. Odin has spoken of the magical damage the hammer can cause. Not to mention (if you require visual means) Thor has, on several occasions, made the hammer blaze, combust, and so forth, with magical energy whenever he wants to deal out a particularly telling blow to an opponent.

 

 

It wouldn't be a one blow fight, obviously. Two heroes never actually decide a victor, they end up teaming against the bad guy. But if you want a clear victor, based on how they are generally used in their respective comics, I say the odds are in Thor's favor.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Starlord

Thor's fists (and Supes for that matter) don't 'give' like a human being. If the hammer is just an extension of that, it has no particular reason to do more damage.

 

So it's your opinion that Thor's hammer is not as/only as "hard" as his fist?

 

Frankly, I'm flat out stunned at your last sentence I quoted. My first thought was "Has he ever READ an issue of Thor or the Avengers?" I'm SURE that is not the case, though.

 

Perhaps you should be more stunned at...

 

Thor's principal weapon is the enchanted hammer named Mjolnir, one of the most formidable weapons known to man or god. Forged out of the mystical metal uru, whose chief properties are durability and ability to maintain enchantment, the hammer is two feet long and its handle is wrapped in leather which terminates in a thong. Besides being a nearly indestructible throwing weapon, the hammer has been given six enchantments by Odin to augment its physical qualities.

Enchantment #1: No living being can lift the hammer from the ground unless he or she is worthy.

Enchantment #2: The hammer will return to the exact spot from which it is thrown after striking its target.

Enchantment #3: The hammer enables the wielder to summon the elements of storm (wind, rain, thunder, lightning, etc.) Acro Note: these are the actual elements, not magical ones. Thor has dominion over the elements

Enchantment #4: The hammer can open interdimensional portals, allowing its wielder to travel to other dimensions, such as from Earth to Asgard.

Enchantment #5: Bestowed on the hammer by Odin in recent times, it enabled Thor to transform into the mortal Don Blake by stamping the hammer once upon the ground and willing the change to occur. Since Thor has not had the alterego of Don Blake for quite some time now it is unknown if this power is still in effect or if it has been modified.

Enchantment #6: By throwing the hammer and grasping its leather thong, Thor can magically propel himself through the air in the semblance of flight. Just as the hammer can magically change its course in order to return to his hand when he throws it, so can it be influenced by its wielder to change its course while it is in his grasp in flight.

 

Here's a link to his game stats which look partially or wholly cribbed from MU or, I assume, the official listing of his abilities in MSH.

 

http://users.ev1.net/~peanut/bio-thor.html

 

There's a link there for the hammer, itself. No amplified damage listed.

 

Which brings me back to the point of the damage Thor deals out, as impressive as it is, is not actually "magic" in a way that Superman seems especially vulnerable to thus making it not the beat down imagined by some.

 

I did, however, find this on a fan page:

 

9. Mystic energy blast (Mjolnir)

 

Thor is able to project powerful mystic energy blasts from his hammer. This tactic is typically only used against opponents that also use energy-based attacks. Similarly, Thor can fire lightning bolts directly from Mjolnir. When this is done, the power of the lightning is magnified greatly.

 

Emphasis mine. Meaning that's gonna be some meeeean lightning and qualifies, imo, as magical. Not to mention the godforce blast, itself.

 

http://www.freetech.org/~thor/about/powers.htm

 

Check out the forgotten powers list... Hurricane Breath!

 

Still nothing saying the smack from the hammer is enhanced beyond the hardness of the metal and the strength behind it, though. *shrug*

 

Just some interesting analysis, is all.

[majorvictory]

Good points, one and all. But you're all missing one extremely important point. The current-era Supes has been active for about 10 years. Thor is a warrior god of a warrior people who has about 1500 years of combat exp. under that Belt of Strength. Supes is truly the icon of superhero icons, but Thor's just a darn good fighter who's seen it all. Case closed.

[RevHooligan]

But what if Thor dropped that hammer and Clark Kent picked it up? Surely Clark would be worthy of it and go all BetaRay Bill and shiznit! Would'nt you love that John Byrne splashpage?

[Morningstar]

Thor vs. Superman

 

Major Victory makes the most important point and I have one more big one to add. Thor has NEVER had a problem hitting anyone with super speed. Does the silver surfer ring a bell? He pummeled him severley the last time they fought. How about Gladiator, another Superman clone? He had no problem hitting him and his super speed either. Century upon century of fighting gods, giants, etc. Put him in another class of fighters than humans. Did anyone read the Wizard magazine years ago that pitted them against each other? Thor was given the nod on 2 different ocassions. The classic line was superMAN vs. thunderGOD. That was the difference.