Old Wounds Reopened. Supes/Thor

[Oruncrest]

The Joy of DEX

 

Nebulon said

With all due respect sir Oruncrest, that high a DEX somewhat takes out the charm of Cap in my humble immortal opinion, who is at peak normal human level. I would put him at DEX 20 at its lowest, 23 at is highest, paid a double fare over 20.

I guess it depends on where one places their concept of 'peak human level' in a Champions game. My peak for DEX is 30, yours is obviously lower.

 

Nebulon said

With the 30 pts the extra DEX costed, I would buy back the SPD (Ideally at 4) for 10 pts, take 5 extra CSL with (Generic) M-arts, and 2 SL with 3-related, DEX skills. In combat, I would cancel to dodge/block until my next phase, where I would put everything into offensive, preferably at the end of the phase, so I could cancel again fast if need be.

So, lemme see if I've got this straight; you wanna limit his speed to 4, then switch between block/dodge on one phase and attack on the next, effectively cutting his SPD in half to try and simulate what could have been done easier by spending an extra 30 points on his DEX.

 

Did I get that right?

 

Nebulon said

He does that a lot in Avengers. Skilled, experienced and dedicated instead of surhuman.

 

The problem is, Champion characters don't have to sell like in the comic biz. They have to be more complete combat masters to effectively survive, because the trials come from dices rather than by scenarist. So yes, they're more effective, sometime without hurting the concept, sometimes not. That Cap you made is probably more suited to a Champion game than the "real" one.

You're right. Champions characters don't have the omnipotent writer to ensure that the 'stormtrooper effect' (where 'several battalions of 'Bad Guys' firing on a 'Good Guy' standing alone in the middle of an open field will always miss') is running during their fights. They can't count on the writer to make their opponents stand around like complete boobs so they can clobber them with ease. All they have are the dice, which can be uncaring at best and malicious at worst. If the PCs can't count on the dice's help, they should be able to at least take steps to minimze the damage done. Whether this is done by high Defs ("You can't hurt me with those popguns, copper"), High DEXs ("Damn you! Stand Still! "Fighting you is like standing still!"), skill Levels ("My defense is impenetrable, my offense, impetuous."), or any moderate combination of the above should be dependent upon the character conception.

 

Morningstar said

I think 30 is right on for most of Caps stats. I think the creation of Telios as the perfect man set that up for him. He is the strongest, fastest, and most durable a human can be. Not just before he starts paying double points. I understand you feel most of champions characters have too high of a dex score but that is the way the writers of the game have set the bar for us. I wouldnt make Cap less dextrous than most of the normal martial artists they have created. That would defy the fact that he is human perfection.

I think that you misunderstand me: I think that some characters have DEXs that are too high for their concepts. Certain concepts (martial artists, speedsters, ect.) benefit from a character with a high DEX (23+). Certain concepts (energy projectors, 'fast' bricks, ect.) find their sweet spot with a median DEX (14-23) and some Levels. And some concepts ('slow' bricks, some mentalists) should rely mostly on levels and/or high defenses. Of course, where I place high, median, and low DEXs is probably different from where you might place them.

[Oruncrest]

Question: Is there a way we can get rid of Gillbill's spam without having to kill the thread?

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Oruncrest

Question: Is there a way we can get rid of Gillbill's spam without having to kill the thread?

 

I know some board software has the ability to wipe out an ID and all of its associated posts without killing the threads themselves. I certainly hope this one does.

[Nucleon]

Re: The Joy of DEX

 

Originally posted by Oruncrest

I guess it depends on where one places their concept of 'peak human level' in a Champions game. My peak for DEX is 30, yours is obviously lower.

 

So, lemme see if I've got this straight; you wanna limit his (Cap's) speed to 4, then switch between block/dodge on one phase and attack on the next, effectively cutting his SPD in half to try and simulate what could have been done easier by spending an extra 30 points on his DEX.

 

Did I get that right?

 

My normal Human Maximas are what HERO sets them to be, ie 20, and a SPEED of 4. After that, I pay double fare if the character I'm designing have "Human Maximas". It can go up to 30, or higher, that costly way. It's concept over good deal. A somewhat "romantic" challenge in HERO.

 

And yes, you did got that right on the whole. In his own comics, Cap often beats the slower, more numerous opposition by taking the initiative but in Avengers, he play more defensively, being a team player. In such a game, a "low DEX" of 20 can be an advantage, because of its place in the initiative call, more towards the end of the segment (so he can cancel fast after an attack). But Cap can still act before anybody if he does a good presence attack, a domain where he's not too shabby neither.

 

That's why the inflated CSLs; to put more focus either in offensive (he can use them as more DCs vs slower, tougher foes), or in defensive. That's what CSLs (and the shield) is for. More effective than what a 30 DEX would brought at that, finally. Try it; It works.

 

[Starlord]

Re: Re: The Joy of DEX

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

My normal Human Maximas are what HERO sets them to be, ie 20, and a SPEED of 4. After that, I pay double fare if the character I'm designing have "Human Maximas". It can go up to 30, or higher, that costly way. It's concept over good deal. A somewhat "romantic" challenge in HERO.

 

And yes, you did got that right on the whole. In his own comics, Cap often beats the slower, more numerous opposition by taking the initiative but in Avengers, he play more defensively, being a team player. In such a game, a "low DEX" of 20 can be an advantage, because of its place in the initiative call, more towards the end of the segment (so he can cancel fast after an attack). But Cap can still act before anybody if he does a good presence attack, a domain where he's not too shabby neither.

 

That's why the inflated CSLs; to put more focus either in offensive (he can use them as more DCs vs slower, tougher foes), or in defensive. That's what CSLs (and the shield) is for. More effective than what a 30 DEX would brought at that, finally. Try it; It works.

 

 

It may work, but 'technically' it isn't in 'concept' in my opinion.

 

Those NCM's are meant explicitly for Heroic campaigns for a reason. If you pay attention to the comics, there are no 'normal humans'. It's just an 'origin concept'. That's all. All those characters, at the root levels, are superheroes and supervillians. 'Normal' applies to none of them. Daredevil and Cap (and others) routinely fight powerful superhumans and do unbelievable Matrix-like (the 'old' bouncing off the flagpole argument)maneuvers. Steve 'got that' when he wrote 5th Edition. Their 'exceptional training' puts them closer to superhuman level.

[Nucleon]

Re: Re: Re: The Joy of DEX

 

Originally posted by Starlord

Those NCM's are meant explicitly for Heroic campaigns for a reason. If you pay attention to the comics, there are no 'normal humans'. It's just an 'origin concept'. That's all. All those characters, at the root levels, are superheroes and supervillians. 'Normal' applies to none of them. Daredevil and Cap (and others) routinely fight powerful superhumans and do unbelievable Matrix-like (the 'old' bouncing off the flagpole argument)maneuvers. Steve 'got that' when he wrote 5th Edition. Their 'exceptional training' puts them closer to superhuman level.

 

Maybe in yours, not in mine.

 

For such guys as Cap, I use the rules on page 213; "Characters in campaigns which do not impose NCM as a default can take NCM as a disavantage for 20 Character Points."

 

How many times did Cap said something akin to "that's just a man you're facing, (insert vilain's name)", generaly before he gets his light punched out.

 

If Cap have no NCM, pray tell who does?

 

When I design a Martial Artist, such as Cap, I ask myself "Is this guy really is super-humanly agile, or does he have exeptional training", like you said, (or both). If the later rings truer, I go the CSLs way, making him a tougher opponent than the super-agile but inexperienced one on an equal basis, by the way.

[Klytus]

The NCM Debate

 

Personally, I very much like the idea put forward that while 20 may be the "normal" characteristic maximum, any Stat can go up to 30 without some kind of super-power justification.

 

So, you have 20 reflecting the stats of "normal' folks at the peak of their abilities (like marathon runners) you still have room for people to go above and beyond (like Olympic weight lifters) the 20 limit, it just gets tougher.

 

Super-heroes are just that. Even the so-called "normal" people with exceptional training (like Batman, Nightwing, Daredevil, Captain America, etc) can easily go over 20, but not 30, as it is within the frameworks of the "normal" human range, but that 20-30 slot gives them the ability to stand out from the "normal" crowd. Remember, every year, new records are broken and new standards are set for the pinnacle of human athletic achievement. The 4-minute mile was once impossible - now its simply a benchmark. The bar is constantly being raised, so having 20 be the static human max does not work. The 20-30 range, however, leaves the wiggle room one needs to reflect this.

 

And while skill levels, lightning reflexes, et al can help bridge this gap, in some cases it just doesn't feel right. I simply cannot accept the notion that Batman and Captain America have DEX scores of 20 because they are not "super" humans.

[Nucleon]

Re: The NCM Debate

 

Originally posted by Klytus

Personally, I very much like the idea put forward that while 20 may be the "normal" characteristic maximum, any Stat can go up to 30 without some kind of super-power justification.

So, is there a NCM Disavantage in your campaign, and if there is, what does it worth? I think that playing a HERO campaing with "Normal" to "Hero" character types helps putting things back in perspective.

 

(Grumble) I know that I must be starting to sound like some argumentative orthodox here, but Cap does not need a surhuman DEX. He could even do better without. In effect, he is surhuman, super-trained, that is.

 

Here is a challenge. I can make, on equal pts, a Cap with NCM that will mop the floor with most 27-38 DEX "Caps" characters in martial combat 2 times out of 3, or bow down to my opponent's effectiveness for all to see.

 

Huh?

[Morningstar]

I don't think making Cap with the least amount of points is the goal here. I am sure you can make Cap more efficient with levels and less Dex but there is no need. Cap doesn't need to be 350 points. I think what others were trying to say is that his character concept is "the best a human can be" I think that definition sowewhat means without supernatural means or genetic changes. He is human on every scan and detect and sensor. If you limit him to 20 dex, than it is impossible for any character to surpass 20 in a physical skill without being altered, and no longer a "non super" human.

 

I think 30 is appropriate for a couple of reasons. Mainly the dexterity level at which Champions gives to other apparent non super humans who are highly trained. If Scorpia is Dex 24, and Warpath is a 25, among many others, it stands to reason the ultimate human could be 30 Dex. These 2 are non superhumans with exceptional training, not superhumans, mutants, etc. Is Warpath supposed to be that much more dextrous than HAWKEYE? Hawkeye is certainly less Dextrous than Cap.

 

Telios "the perfect man" was given 30 stats across the board except for INT. I think this is very good benchmark for Cap. Anything past this should have a superhuman explaiation and concept.

 

WOW! This thread has morphed beyond recognition.

[Gary]

Re: Re: The NCM Debate

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

So, is there a NCM Disavantage in your campaign, and if there is, what does it worth? I think that playing a HERO campaing with "Normal" to "Hero" character types helps putting things back in perspective.

 

(Grumble) I know that I must be starting to sound like some argumentative orthodox here, but Cap does not need a surhuman DEX. He could even do better without. In effect, he is surhuman, super-trained, that is.

 

Here is a challenge. I can make, on equal pts, a Cap with NCM that will mop the floor with most 27-38 DEX "Caps" characters in martial combat 2 times out of 3, or bow down to my opponent's effectiveness for all to see.

 

Huh?

 

That's a real tough challenge for you. You can sort of compensate for dex with skill levels. Against 1 single opponent, skill levels may be even slightly more effective since you can purchase the 2-3 pt versions. However, purchasing 5 pt versions like Cap should have is horribly inefficient compared to buying Dex. The real killer is when your 4 spd Cap takes on a 6-8 spd Cap.

 

The parameters of that challenge must be set as well. Are there any CV or DC caps, or is the sky the limit? How would you handle the shield with the 2 versions, or are they assumed to have the same shield?

[Pattern Ghost]

Why does it seem like every time this comes up, someone thinks that NCM is a hard limit? It's NOT. It's a SPENDING limitation.

 

Let's say you like low-DEX games. Let's say you set up a standard campaign, but require every character to take NCM.

 

Fine. Do you think your bricks are going to stop at 20 STR? Doubtful. They'll just have less pts to spend elsewhere.

 

Given NCM across the board, you'll have made normals a bigger threat in a way, but you won't change Cap's concept.

 

Here's his concept: If a "normal" human can go to X physical stat, Cap can go that much more. So what if he pays double? He's CAP. He's beyond that threshold of "normal" men, and into the Adonis league of human perfection.

 

Even in an all NCM environment, Cap would have about this for physical stats:

 

25 STR

26 DEX (Maybe 24)

23 CON

15 BDY

10 PD

10 ED

6 SPD

10 REC

50 END

50 STN

 

Some of thsoe stats are above NCM. So, what? He pays double. It's not like he's got to burn many points to buy some skills and a shield. Compared to the majority of the Marvel Univers, Cap IS a stat monster. He's not into superhuman range on anything, but most superhumans are in the non-super range in most things themselves. Unless they have their own title, of course.

 

Cap has been the last man standing in many, many issues of the Avengers, and not because he was hiding behind his shield for the whole fight. Saying he changes tactics to hide behind his sheild when he 's with the Avengers is like saying She-Hulk hides behind her armor skin. Of course she does, that's what it's there for! Same with Cap's shield. I've seen Cap out there monkey-flipping big guys just like Captain Kirk monkey-flipping Klingons more times than I can count.

[Pattern Ghost]

I'm also wondering where the concept of Cap as a "normal" comes from?

 

Wake up call: Cap has POWERS.

 

He has the Super Soldier Syrum. The syrum in his system has been repeatedly cited to explain his:

 

• 
  Superhuman stamina; he never (or VERY rarely) tires
  Superhuman resistance to toxins and drugs
  Superhuman resistance to environemental effects; he has been the last Avenger standing -- including those with gross physical powers -- when the team was exposed to very extreme heat, and that, despite his chainmail union suit.
  

 

In the lame-a...ed storyline where he lost the super soldier syrum, his peformance levels dropped dramatically. Even though he trained to recover from the "withdrawl" effects, he still didn't attain his former power. If he wasn't super-powered, why the need to de-power him?

[Pattern Ghost]

Uh, oh yeah, Thor would whip Supes.

 

Just to stay on topic. =)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar

WOW! This thread has morphed beyond recognition.

 

It has indeed. Well, I hate doing that, but here is a quick sketch of Cap at 400 pts, to show what I mean. This is rough stuff, but you get the idea;

 

Characteristics, 178 pts; Those above NCMs are bought at double cost:

STR, DEX and CON at 23, EGO and PRE at 20, BODY and INT at 18, COM at 16. PD/ED 10, SPD 4, END 46, STUN 45

 

Powers, 73.8 pts:

Running +4", 5 pts Lack of Weaknesses, LS Ext. Breathing, 2x lifespan, Res. all diseases, safe in Heat/Cold/rads and 10 pts Mental Defense.

7/7 Armor (14- act independant OIF chain mail), and a 40 pts Shield Multipower, all OAF, which includes the following ultras;

-All ranged missile deflection, usable at range

-E-Blast vs PD 6d6 Indirect

-A total of 8d6 HTH attack, all Armor-Piercing, half-END

-13 PD/ED Armor

-Dam Reduction 50% vs P- and E-Dam.

-HKA 2d6 total, Half-END (shield edge).

 

Skills and others, 145 pts

Generic M-Arts, usable with Shield, 4 PSLs with Shield, 4 CSLs with Shield Multipower, 10 CSLs w Generic M-Arts, 3 skill lvls w. Acrobatics, Breakfall and Climbing and about 60 pts of skills, talents and perks, a bit exhaustive to post here.

 

Here is a guy that can block with a DCV of up to 20-24, and then strike with an OCV of 24, and a potential damage of 20 DC. His Acrobatics is at 17-, as is Breakfall. And he is only human. What a hero. Eat your heart out you 38-DEX jumping monkeys out there.

 

Ooof. Now back to Thor vs Supes...

 

...Thor wins!

[Morningstar]

I'm also wondering where the concept of Cap as a "normal" comes from?

 

Cap's write up in the handbooks and his concept has always been that the Super Soldier Serum raised him to the peak of human capability. Meaning that he is as strong, fast, and durable as a human being is capable of being. None of his genetic material is anything other than that of a human being. He does not register as a mutant or a superhuman on any type of scanner in the comics. Neither would many characters in comics but of ALL of those Cap should be the Strongest, fastest, etc. In champions terms I believe that would put his endurance,recovery, pd, ed, stun all at the most a human can attain.

 

I think wherever you say his stats are is where you are saying an unaltered human can not surpass. If you have a higher strength or dex or con in the marvel universe, then you have it through superhuman means, or you are a mutant.

 

The question of what is the maximum a normal human can attain in Champions is not clearly defined, generally I think because there is no reason for it. I used Telios as a good benchmark because he seems to follow the "perfect human" theme. Also the only characters in Champions tht have stats over 30 seem to be super humans, not the experts that Scorpia, Warpath, etc. seem to be. Just my opinion but it seemed logical.

[Tom McCarthy]

One of the things I found quite interesting about San Angelo was that the author clearly believed that NCM was the max a human could achieve and clearly stuck to it for most character designs. It made the perfect man look intimidating, and it gave the 'iconic' heroes a truly distinct feel from their Champions Universe counterparts, because lower characteristics meant extra points for lots of neat skills.

 

I notice that every edition of Champions seems to give more skills to the starting characters than the one before...

[Morningstar]

Nucleon,

 

The Cap write up is well done but I thnk it is abondoning the pperfect human concept in order to save points. Great character if you were trying to play him and get under a 400 point limit but I think the question is, is it accurate to the Cap of comics? I dont think so. Would you seriously introduce this chacter into the Champions universe AS Captain America when you have amercan indian archers , and terrorist agents(Warpath and Scorpia) running around that are more dextrous? If you were just trying to defeat them with less points, absolutely, but it really isn't the Cap of Marvel?

 

BTW wouldn't you make his shield OIF due to the fact it never gets taken away from him, also it is strapped to his arm and he doen't even drop it in the comics when knocked out.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

It has indeed. Well, I hate doing that, but here is a quick sketch of Cap at 400 pts, to show what I mean. This is rough stuff, but you get the idea;

 

Characteristics, 178 pts; Those above NCMs are bought at double cost:

STR, DEX and CON at 23, EGO and PRE at 20, BODY and INT at 18, COM at 16. PD/ED 10, SPD 4, END 46, STUN 45

 

Powers, 73.8 pts:

Running +4", 5 pts Lack of Weaknesses, LS Ext. Breathing, 2x lifespan, Res. all diseases, safe in Heat/Cold/rads and 10 pts Mental Defense.

7/7 Armor (14- act independant OIF chain mail), and a 40 pts Shield Multipower, all OAF, which includes the following ultras;

-All ranged missile deflection, usable at range

-E-Blast vs PD 6d6 Indirect

-A total of 8d6 HTH attack, all Armor-Piercing, half-END

-13 PD/ED Armor

-Dam Reduction 50% vs P- and E-Dam.

-HKA 2d6 total, Half-END (shield edge).

 

Skills and others, 145 pts

Generic M-Arts, usable with Shield, 4 PSLs with Shield, 4 CSLs with Shield Multipower, 10 CSLs w Generic M-Arts, 3 skill lvls w. Acrobatics, Breakfall and Climbing and about 60 pts of skills, talents and perks, a bit exhaustive to post here.

 

Here is a guy that can block with a DCV of up to 20-24, and then strike with an OCV of 24. His Acrobatics is at 17-, as is Breakfall. And he is only human. What a hero. Eat your heat out you 38-DEX jumping monkeys out there.

 

Ooof. Now back to Thor vs Supes...

 

...Thor wins!

 

I'm sorry, that Cap you listed would be destroyed by a Cap of similar points with no NCM and a 38 dex/6 spd.

 

Str 23

Dex 38

Con 23

Body 18

Int 18

Ego 20

Pre 20

Com 16

PD 10

ED 10

Rec 10

End 46

Stun 45

 

This is exactly the same as your Cap, except for 38 dex/6 Spd. He costs roughly 25 pts more in stats. To save 24 pts, cut the 3 levels with acrobatics, breakfall, and climbing for 9 pts. He'll still have a 17- roll due to raw dex. Next, cut 5 skill levels with MA for a savings of 15 pts. This Cap already has a 5 OCV and 5 DCV advantage over yours, so he'll have at least the same CV net. Everything else is the same as your Cap.

 

My Cap can do essentially everything your Cap can do for the same price, but has +2 Spd to boot.

[Pattern Ghost]

Exactly. What I'm getting at is that he's often treated as a guy who is the peak of what a trained, well-conditioned human can achieve. He's got that extr umph from the serum, and although it mostly effects him in subtle ways, he is beyond what can be achieved through "normal" traning. Looking at the other uber-normals in Marvel who use a training-only rationale, you end up with guys trained by mystic monks in tibet and by mystic ninja clans, and other "ancient secrets" type of deals, not Joe Blow the Ex-Marine (Punisher, no matter how much he's been hyped, he still can't beat Cap or even Dare Devil, at least he never did in any of the matchups I read in the 80's/90's) or the local dojo.

 

He's simply a cut above physically, with a few really low-level powers.

 

Originally posted by Morningstar

I'm also wondering where the concept of Cap as a "normal" comes from?

 

Cap's write up in the handbooks and his concept has always been that the Super Soldier Serum raised him to the peak of human capability. Meaning that he is as strong, fast, and durable as a human being is capable of being. None of his genetic material is anything other than that of a human being. He does not register as a mutant or a superhuman on any type of scanner in the comics. Neither would many characters in comics but of ALL of those Cap should be the Strongest, fastest, etc. In champions terms I believe that would put his endurance,recovery, pd, ed, stun all at the most a human can attain.

 

I think wherever you say his stats are is where you are saying an unaltered human can not surpass. If you have a higher strength or dex or con in the marvel universe, then you have it through superhuman means, or you are a mutant.

 

The question of what is the maximum a normal human can attain in Champions is not clearly defined, generally I think because there is no reason for it. I used Telios as a good benchmark because he seems to follow the "perfect human" theme. Also the only characters in Champions tht have stats over 30 seem to be super humans, not the experts that Scorpia, Warpath, etc. seem to be. Just my opinion but it seemed logical.

[Nucleon]

By Morningstar

The Cap write up is well done but I thnk it is abondoning the pperfect human concept in order to save points.

I do know perfectly well that the fact to stick to NCW cost me a lot of points.

 

by Gary

I'm sorry, that Cap you listed would be destroyed by a Cap of similar points with no NCM and a 38 dex/6 spd.

At 38 DEX, are you sure this is Cap?

 

He costs roughly 25 pts more in stats. To save 24 pts, cut the 3 levels with acrobatics, breakfall, and climbing for 9 pts. He'll still have a 17- roll due to raw dex. Next, cut 5 skill levels with MA for a savings of 15 pts. Everything else is the same as your Cap (...) but has +2 Spd to boot.

Yours actually costs 41 more pts, of which you deduct 24 pts. With the extra 17 pts, I buy almost 6 other CSLs w. M-Arts, being that much over yours, plus gaining the posibility of doing almost 4 DC more damage on bigger foes that way. As for the superior SPD, that's mot much of an advantage if mine cancels or blocks. Chances are you won't touch me.

 

Now, to be honest, yours will be a better pilot, will be better at diving for cover etc and will constantly have the Initiative, exept if I bloked you at your actions 4 and 10, in which case I will strike first on 6 and 12.

 

My Cap can do essentially everything your Cap can do for the same price.

 

Which reinforce my point. With NCM concept, this guy still can beat yours 2/3. He is in the same league as your superagile one. Just a Man.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

I do know perfectly well that the fact to stick to NCW cost me a lot of points.

 

 

At 38 DEX, are you sure this is Cap?

 

Of course it's not Cap. I was simply taking exception to your argument that a NCM Cap would somehow be more effective than a no NCM Cap with 38 dex.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Yours actually costs 41 more pts, of which you deduct 24 pts. With the extra 17 pts, I buy almost 6 other CSLs w. M-Arts, gaining a posibility of doing almost 4 DC damage on bigger foes that way. As for the superior SPD, that's mot much of an advantage if mine cancels, or blocks. You won't touch me, and lose END.

 

Now, to be honest, yours will be a better pilot, will be better at diving for cover etc and will constantly have the Initiative, exept if I bloked you at your actions 4 and 10, in which case I will strike first on 6 and 12.

 

How did you get 41 more points? My stats come out to 204 pts with no NCM. Your stats actually come out to 177 pts using NCM. I'm honestly baffled on how you got a 41 pt difference.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Which reinforce my point. With NCM concept, this guy still is in the same league as your superagile one.

 

2 extra points of speed difference is not in the same league.

[Pattern Ghost]

Not in the same league, that SPD 6 is a pretty big edge. All in all, if any character should have a 6 SPD, it's Cap. Just think of it as "extra attacks". Think of the rest of the Marvel heroes as SPD 3-5 with Spidey around 7, and speedsters like Quicksilver around 8. That's still a pretty reasonable range. Paying 40 pts to go to SPD 6 with NCM is kinda silly, but if you want to do it that way, he's still going to be effective.

 

EDIT: Crossposted with Gary, not arguing with him. =)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar

BTW wouldn't you make his shield OIF due to the fact it never gets taken away from him, also it is strapped to his arm and he doen't even drop it in the comics when knocked out.

That was a fast shot. Like I say, a character's only good the fourth or fifth time you make it. The shield should be OIF as you say (althought it does happen that Cap loses it on a fairly common basis), and he should also have hardening on his shield, overall Skill lvls, CSLs usable with 8 others and many more. To fix him at 400 is a bit low; I would be more comfortable with 450-475.

 

Go Thor!

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

How did you get 41 more points? My stats come out to 204 pts with no NCM. Your stats actually come out to 177 pts using NCM. I'm honestly baffled on how you got a 41 pt difference.

Mmh. Nucleon is supposed to be faultless, mortal. I paid 48 points for my Cap's DEX of 23, plus 7 for its SPD of 4. Yours was 84 pts for DEX 38, plus 12 for SPD 6. (84+12)-(48+7) = 41

 

I do know mine more or less equals 400.

 

extra points of speed difference is not in the same league.

So you think the higher SPD always wins, mmmh?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Mmh. Nucleon is supposed to be faultless, mortal. I paid 48 points for my Cap's DEX of 23, plus 7 for its SPD of 4. Yours was 84 pts for DEX 38, plus 12 for SPD 6. (84+12)-(48+7) = 41

 

I do know mine more or less equals 400.

 

Ah, I see the problem. You paid double for str, con, pd, and ed because you have NCM. I didn't.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

So you think the higher SPD always wins, mmmh?

 

A 6 vs a 4 will easily if the 2 characters are otherwise equal. Let's suppose you do your blocking thang. I attack on 2 with all levels in OCV, you abort 3 and put all your levels in OCV to block and succeed. Fine, but now you have a DCV of only 10 (8 base plus 2 for martial block). I attack again on 4, and you abort 6 to block again. You're DCV is a mere 10, (8 base and 2 from martial block). It'd be trivial for me to throw the shield and smack you against such a low DCV. I could probably even call a shot to the head. Blocks don't work vs ranged attacks.

 

Repeat as often as necessary. And if you don't choose to block, I'll just smack you directly and abort to block or dodge myself against any counterattack.