"Sucker Punches"

[Just Joe]

I would be glad to hear Steve's answer (among others') to this question, but I have not posted it on the Rules Questions Board because I think it is more a matter of context and judgment than strict rules-interpretation:

 

How should one handle a "sucker punch"? I am envisioning a case in which two characters are talking, possibly about to shake hands, when one suddenly punches the other. The most obvious possible answers are surpised-out-of-combat, surprised-in-combat, and surprise manuever. Presumably how wary the target is affects the answer. In at least some such cases, a PER roll seems in order, but how would one handle this? The target does not seem to need merely to see the attack, but to see it in time to react. How much time he needs to react seems to be affected by DEX, but in the system DEX does not seem to come into play (if he has a held action or can abort, then any DEX will do; if not, then it seems that no DEX can be high enough).

[Fitz]

I've been thinking about this same thing myself recently, specifically with respect to feinting in combat, but also in the situation you mention.

 

There's no specific analogy to the d20 Bluff/Sense Motive skill pair (maybe there should be?), but you could use either an Acting roll or a Sleight of Hand roll, depending on whether your attacker is being two-faced or sneaky with their attack. Use it just like an opposed Complementary Skill roll (vs. PER?) — get +1 to your OCV for every 2 over a success.

[Steve Long]

The Bluff/Sense Motive thing is, in HERO System terms, a Skill Versus Skill Contest that pits the attacker's Acting against the target's PER Roll.

 

I'd handle a "sucker punch" as a Surprised modifier, but give the target a PER Roll to avoid suffering the Surprised penalties. Possibly an Acting vs. PER Roll could be used as well.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

I'd permit an Acting vs. PER roll to avoid being surprised OUT of combat, i.e. get the 'surprised in combat' effects. This prevents him from taking the x2 Stun, but also (clearly) puts him at the 1/2 DCV he deserves to be for trusting the goon.

[DrSavant]

SURPRISE!!!

 

Sucker Punch;

 

You are about to attack someone who doesn't think you are going/able to. ( The special effects of this vary.)

If the target is not expecting an attack from you, use SURPRISE [in or out of combat].

 

Here are some guidelines;

Does the target have danger sense?

Do they think they are being stealthy, but aren't? (Failed roll)

Do they think you are distracted (by combat per se)?

Are you faking that you don't notice them? (360 degree vision)

[pinecone]

Don't forget the "double bluff" sucker punch...i.e. I fake a punch to the groin and when you drop your hands I head-butt your nose out of existance....I'd say roll Per and base the level of suprise on that...maybe have analyze style as a complimentary...?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Both Acting and Sleight-of-Hand are appropriate for this sort of Surprise Maneuver.

 

I've used Sleight-of-Hand for these sorts of attacks in the past (instant surprise attacks...usually coupled with Fast Draw and a really sharp blade) and it works quite well.

 

Hitting somebody when they are Surprised: Out of Combat is a good way of taking them out in a single blow.

 

A bit cowardly though. Heroes shouldn't use it often...if at all.

[nuada]

this is kind of a scary topic, really. surprise is a very dangerous thing in this game, both in-combat and out-of-combat.

 

I would say that PER is critical to whether or not someone notices the attack coming. I would further say that speed is the deciding factor in whether they can then do anything about it (like abort to a dodge, or whatever).

 

To that end, I would propose that you make the contested roll of Acting or Sleight of Hand vs. the victim's PER.

 

If the victim fails his PER roll, he is surprised out-of-combat (double stun and all that rot).

 

If he makes his PER roll, his speed is then compared to his attacker's speed.

 

If he is slower than his attacker, he is surprised in-combat.

 

If faster, then things should play out as though it's the start of a normal fight, beginning at segment 12, as usual.

 

Surprise should be very hard to get, especially against an observant foe who is faster than you. If you really want to surprise someone, it's better if they don't know you're there.

[Guest Celt]

Originally posted by pinecone

Don't forget the "double bluff" sucker punch...i.e. I fake a punch to the groin and when you drop your hands I head-butt your nose out of existance....I'd say roll Per and base the level of suprise on that...maybe have analyze style as a complimentary...?

 

This'd be more of a feint than a sucker punch.