Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

[MitchellS]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

Thank MitchellS, I'll Rep you later.

 

Cheers

 

QM

There's also a yahoo group here which you can join. The templates are in the photos section: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/MnMSketchpad/

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

There's also a yahoo group here which you can join. The templates are in the photos section: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/MnMSketchpad/

 

Great, but my Yahoo navigational skills SUCK!!!.

 

I just don't get it?

 

QM

[MitchellS]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

Great, but my Yahoo navigational skills SUCK!!!.

 

I just don't get it?

 

QM

http://www.e-core-news.org/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=19

 

Look for the area that says "DCU Animated Style Templates." It's the third thing on the list.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

http://www.e-core-news.org/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=19

 

Look for the area that says "DCU Animated Style Templates." It's the third thing on the list.

 

 

*Harley Quinn's voice* "Ahhh!!! Thank you Mister MitchellS"

 

Awesome

 

QM

[Lamrok]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

I'd be perfectly happy if all gaming companies just dispensed with art, and published books with just text. Most illustrations do nothing to make the book in any way a better tool to support a role-playing game. I would never want a lack of available art to dissuade a talanted writer from sharing his ideas with the rpg community.

[MitchellS]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

I'd be perfectly happy if all gaming companies just dispensed with art' date=' and published books with just text. Most illustrations do nothing to make the book in any way a better tool to support a role-playing game. I would never want a lack of available art to dissuade a talanted writer from sharing his ideas with the rpg community.[/quote']

Unfortunately that opinion is nearly the exact opposite of what is going on in the gaming industry at this time. Good art, glossy paper, sophisticated layout/graphics, and full-color are a big part of what drives sales for the companies who are the direct competition to Hero Games. I would bet a full third of M&M's initial sales were garnered due to presentation alone.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

I'm not jumping to conclusion. Villainy Amok had and entire chart and map missing. The reason you get blueline books back from printers is so you can make sure there are no mistakes. DOJ isn't taking the time to carefully do that.

 

So that's two books in a row. Is it a trend yet?

I got my VA yesterday and just started going through it last evening. What is missing? Has DoJ made the missing stuff available for DL?

 

I still plan to buy DC:TAS soon. It's the material I look for; art (other than maps) is just fluff IMO. I like it, but it's not essential.

[MitchellS]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

I got my VA yesterday and just started going through it last evening. What is missing? Has DoJ made the missing stuff available for DL?

 

I still plan to buy DC:TAS soon. It's the material I look for; art (other than maps) is just fluff IMO. I like it, but it's not essential.

The incorrect page is available for download on the free stuff page.

[loraxxx]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

I'd be perfectly happy if all gaming companies just dispensed with art' date=' and published books with just text. Most illustrations do nothing to make the book in any way a better tool to support a role-playing game. I would never want a lack of available art to dissuade a talanted writer from sharing his ideas with the rpg community.[/quote']

 

 

hmmm, my response to your statement can be summed up in two letters--

 

"V" and "V"

[buzz]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

You know, Beatlemaniac would have been a better name.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

The art really is terrible. Just awful; some of it's nearly Blood of Heroes bad.

 

And that's especially disappointing considering how cool the new villains are. They deserved better.

[Eosin]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

I haven't got it yet but thought about posting comments on editing and art in general.

 

Hero has the hands down best editing and layout department of any gaming company that I have ever seen. The layout isn't fancy or slick but it is simple and presentible. As for editing, the list of errors in books published by WW, WotC, GR, (infamously) Mongoose, and others takes pages of errata just to correct spelling and statblock errors - where as Hero rarely makes anything more than an occassional gaffe. That doesn't mean you can't bitch about it, just saying to keep it in perspective (look at this review of a WOTC product if you need some illumination)

 

On art in general - I guess I will let dead dogs lie (or is it lay?).

 

[BigJackBrass]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

The general standard of editing and art in the games industry is fairly poor, and the reasons are simple. Most companies are very small and have limited budgets and experience. Since RPGs have been around for thirty years we've naturally seen improvements, and not just with the big names who have reached a size where they can attract seasoned talent and invest in quality production. Personal computers have made layout easier, clip art offers a standby for certain genres, and the overall raising of the bar by companies like Steve Jackson Games and Games Workshop has forced everyone to pay attention to things we all let pass years ago. Many of the acknowledged classics of yester-year simply would not stand up today.

 

The problem games companies face, though, is the split - clearly demonstrated in this thread - between people who just want the raw information and people who want that information to be slickly - professionally - presented. I don't buy Games Workshop or White Wolf games anymore, but the presentation is superb. I do buy Hero, and the presentation is... patchy. Unfortunately, I'm a small part of the market.

 

If we're going to forego art entirely (and as an artist I shudder a little at that) then we might as well shift to PDFs and forget about publishing books. However good the content, the average punter is going to be more attracted to a big colourful hardback than to a text-heavy black and white book when they see them side by side on the shelf; and if you don't believe me then ask yourself why companies spend billions every year on packaging and advertising. The more experienced shopper, in this case someone who has likely played a number of different games and can see the real worth in a product, will see past the gloss and will judge the books by different criteria, but even so a good presentation can tip the balance.

 

If you're going to put art into a book then I'd rather it related closely to the text, hadn't appeared three times before in the same product line and didn't look as though a high school student had scrawled it into the back of an exercise book during lunch, but really good art costs money and takes time. Editing a book calls for tough decisions, and sometimes you have to go with a less than perfect option. Ultimately, I'd rather have excellent content than excellent presentation, but it would be nice to think that the two might not be exclusive.

 

Hero Games had an awful reputation for art in the past, and DoJ have unfortunately inherited that particular albatross. Things have improved (I've been especially happy to see the Champions covers looking more "comicbook" than "painting") and they have countered criticisms on appearance by raising the standard for content, editing and for the sheer quality of the index in a Hero System book, but errors creep in to any sizeable project. Admittedly, one or two of the things mentioned here and highlighted in recent reviews do suggest that editing might be a bit more rushed than it should ideally be. To be honest, I can forgive a few errors if the company then offers a correction. Steve Jackson Games have long been leaders at this and it's good to see errata posted on the Hero site, but it's not as easy to find as it might be: I found out about the location of the missing VA page through this thread, whereas I had (not unreasonably) been checking the Errata page.

 

Recently I bought a copy of "Necessary Evil" for the "Savage Worlds" game, and it's a fine demonstration of evolution in a product line. Earlier SW supplements were black and white; NE is full colour. The art is good, some of it very good, and generally relevant to the text. Editing is mostly fine, although there is evidence of a computerised spell-checker in use without someone bothering to confirm the results, and the buzz in the gaming stores is very positive. It seems to be selling well. Actually, I rather like it, but compare NE at twenty quid with just about any Hero book for the same price or a few pounds less and the actual value for money involved swings entirely in favour of Hero. Hero simply has much more substance, but you have to take the time to see it.

 

Until DoJ have more money behind them, more staff and more hours in the day there is always going to be the need to compromise, so as the people who buy the books I think it's up to us to criticise (constructively) where appropriate and offer praise where it is due. Criticism of DC:TAS is reasonable if it really does look poor and have editing issues, so I'm not railing against earlier posts.

 

Naturally when I publish a revised version of this post I'll be sure to improve the art and layout considerably. Comments welcome.

[MitchellS]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

I should point out, at least for me, that it's not really a quality of art issue. Some of the art in the book isn't too bad, but some of it is terrible. What I dislike is the obvious attempt that was made to make up for the lack of art by over-sizing and unusual placement of the pictures; and especially the repetitive use of art in the book. One picture of some Dr. Fate looking character is used 3 times in the book. A great many of the pieces are used twice. Then there's the reuse of older art. I can't tell you how happy I am to see that picture of the girl on the motorcycle from the HS Vehicle Book used again, and again, and again.

 

And finally, as I mentioned before, this is one of the smallest Hero books published at 120 pages but it has between 8-10% of the book as white-space. There are literally 2 pages in the book which together don't have enough material on them to cover 1 whole column on a page. It would have been so easy to throw in some box text of NPC or another villain write up to fill in that space. The animated friendly police commissioner, the hunting animated detective, the animated friendly scientist or inventor, an over-flow villain or two from Predators, etc. There are many things which could have been used to fill in the white-space, if anyone had bothered to take the time to do it. Everything in DC:TAS just has the feel of "Just get it done and out the door."

 

This was a book which had potential to reach a big audience for Dark Champions. Many gamers have fond memoried of the Batman, Superman, Teen Titans, and Justice League cartoons. There was a built in fan-base who might have seen this on a shelf and been willing to give it a look-through. The presentation will not inspire them to spend their $27.00 on something new.

[Lamrok]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

If we're going to forego art entirely (and as an artist I shudder a little at that) then we might as well shift to PDFs and forget about publishing books.

 

This is where I think the market will eventually wind up: PDFs with Print on Demand for those who want it. This greatly lowers the investment a game company requires to distribute a product and start seeing returns. No gambling on printing too many or too few books. Resistance to this format will lessen over time, partly driven by a parallel change in personal computers (this is the forst year that laptops have outsold desktops.) If everyone has a laptop in their hands, at the game, then having a game in PDF format isn't that much of an issue.

 

I've been running a Savage Worlds game for the last couple of months. Almost all of my materials are in PDF format. I have the full book, but the PDF is just more convenient most of the time.

[buzz]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

The presentation will not inspire them to spend their $27.00 on something new.

Particularly considering that, e.g., M&M books of similar page count list for $4 less and are full-color wth awesome art.

 

Still, this is an old issue that DOJ has addressed many times. They do what fits their budget and makes economic sense; if they could make their books look like M&M and still make a profit, they would.

 

I would just like to offer the opinion that, as a devoted HERO fan, I would be happy to see less art in a book if it meant the pieces that were included were of quality. Better to spend the art budget on a really nice cover and have an all-text interior than produce books that look like DC:TAS, IMO.

 

The content of this book, typos aside, is looking quite good. I would think that a casual browser in a store would have a higher chance of taking a look at this content, even if all-text, if the cover really caught their eye.

 

I really hate criticizing HERO products. Art or no, I still love this company.

[MitchellS]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

Particularly considering that, e.g., M&M books of similar page count list for $4 less and are full-color wth awesome art.

 

Still, this is an old issue that DOJ has addressed many times. They do what fits their budget and makes economic sense; if they could make their books look like M&M and still make a profit, they would.

You can make a product look nice without needing color. Noir is a perfect example of that.

 

I would just like to offer the opinion that, as a devoted HERO fan, I would be happy to see less art in a book if it meant the pieces that were included were of quality. Better to spend the art budget on a really nice cover and have an all-text interior than produce books that look like DC:TAS, IMO.

Unfortunately I'm of the opposite opinion. There are some genres where you can get away with fewer pieces of art [star Hero and Fantasy Hero can get by with important portraits] but superhero products need a plentiful supply of good art in them. Good comic books are an equal balance of art to story. Good superhero game supplements need to be balanced as well. I would not buy a published Champions product that had no art except on the cover.

[Beetle]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

My DC:TAS is currently enjoying a plane ride (or possibly a truck ride) across the country. I'm really looking forward to this book, and the comments on this thread have just peaked my interest more. I don't usually pay much attention to the art or the layout (as long as I can find everything), but do think that each piece of art should only be used once in any given book (and should only be used as a last resort in other books).

[buzz]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

You can make a product look nice without needing color. Noir is a perfect example of that.

I'm not saying you can't. Just pointing out how dusty the color argument has become. I think we've seen that DOJ can produce very good looking B&W product. They've also made it clear that doing what GR/Super Unicorn does is not financially feasible for them.

 

(And, IIRC, there were quite a few M&M fans on their boards who were disappointed with the look of Noir, being used to the glorious color of all the other M&M books. But that's a different issue.)

 

...but superhero products need a plentiful supply of good art in them. Good comic books are an equal balance of art to story. Good superhero game supplements need to be balanced as well.

Ideally, yes. But if DOJ has to make a budget-based choice between:

 

a) A mediocre cover and middling-to-poor interior art

A fantastic cover and either no interior art or minimal but quality interior art

 

I'll happily take B.

 

I would not buy a published Champions product that had no art except on the cover.

I would. I might not be as happy as I would be if it were filled with glorious art, but ultimately the content is more important to me.

[MitchellS]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

I would. I might not be as happy as I would be if it were filled with glorious art' date=' but ultimately the content is more important to me.[/quote']

I understand you are a fan, as am I, but I find it hard to believe that you would purchase CKC, AA, or VVV and be content to have those books without a single picture in them to show you what any of those villains look like. Content only goes so far and it's way too easy to switch over to another game system that is giving content, pictures, and presentation.

[CSgeekHero]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

Particularly considering that, e.g., M&M books of similar page count list for $4 less and are full-color wth awesome art.

 

While I do agree that M&M has some outstanding art, your numbers don't add up on the price for the page count.

 

The M&M Annual #1 lists as 128pgs for $25, but Gimmick lists as 128pgs for $26.

Plus, their Crooks! lists at 128pgs for $28.

 

DC:TAS lists at 160pgs, you folks are saying its actually around 120, and it's list is $27.

 

The only books that cost less have much lower page count, around 64 to 96.

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight or cause too much trouble, but for page count to price, I haven't seen anyone else come close to Hero books. Plus, like you said Buzz, the content in those pages is quite good.

 

I don't have DC:TAS yet. However, I'd have to agree that repeating pictures for the sake of additional pictures isn't a good idea.

 

I'm buying it as it will be my introduction into Champions.

[MitchellS]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

The Annual would be the most comparable product, and as you noted it's $2.00 cheaper than DC:TAS. Buzz might have misspoke or didn't remember the price of the Annual. Crooks is a hardcover and that alone adds $5.00 to the price of the book.

[CSgeekHero]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

Like I said, I wasn't trying to offend anyone.

 

I am wrong, because I didn't know that Crooks! was a hardcover.

 

When I buy books I do look at the binding, but I never focus on whether it's a hard or softcover. So, for me, it's about the quality and quantity of the content for the price. And artwork is like seasoning in food, you don't want it to overpower what the flavor of what your actually eating.

[buzz]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

While I do agree that M&M has some outstanding art' date=' your numbers don't add up on the price for the page count.[/quote']

 

M&M Annual: Amazon says 127pp @ 24.95 list. You're right, it's only $2 cheaper, but it's got color, better art, is longer, and has higher text density. Crooks! is the same page length, hardcover, amazing art, high-quality paper, and only $1 more. Additionally, both products are excellent in content.

 

Also, all of the above can be had from Amazon for 30% or more off. There aren't many (or any, maybe) retailers that offer HERO products at that kind of discount.

 

Not that I'm trying to make a case for M&M being somehow "better"; it's not, IMO. But when you're talking about what makes for an appealing product, it's hard to fault M&M in any way.

 

I guess the weird thing is that, according to Ken Hite, HERO's market share is not bad for a not-WotC company, and is roughly the same ballpark as GR, iirc. Granted, there are far more HERO books each year than M&M books. If GR can pull off the wonderful-looking products they do, why not DOJ?

 

Heck... DC:TAS may simply be an anomaly. In general, the books have been looking quite good.

[buzz]

Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet?

 

I understand you are a fan' date=' as am I, but I find it hard to believe that you would purchase CKC, AA, or VVV and be content to have those books without a single picture in them to show you what any of those villains look like. Content only goes so far and it's way too easy to switch over to another game system that is giving content, pictures, and presentation.[/quote']

But the system matters to me more than the presentation. While I might not be "content" to have no art in a book, my discontent with that can be offset by quality content.

 

Granted, if we're talking lousy layout as well, then I may not be so quick to contradict... Thankfully, HERO books don't have that problem any more. My copy of Strike Force looks pretty shoddy even in comparison to DC:TAS in that regard.