Publius Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? While I am not thrilled with the art of DC:TAS, I am with the content. The art on almost all of the other books thus far has been rather good, and certainly not off-putting even when it did not knock my socks off. Most of the covers have been good-very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterhawk Posted June 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? Since I started this thread, just thought I'd throw in my $0.02. It finally showed up at my FLGS on Friday. Not accounting for the re-use of Scott Ruggles stuff from 4th (He's an underrated artist IMHO), the art is not bad at its best and really bad at its worst. A few of the art styles look like those found in Blood of Heroes stuff, which I consider to have the worst art in the history of gaming. While I understand Scott Ruggles and Storn Cook can't do every single piece of Hero art, I was hoping for something better than this. The content is very good. I think it provides something that Champs has been lacking since 5th came out: secondary and street level supervillains. I can easily see whipping up a Rogues Gallery out of a half dozen of the characters presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? Since I started this thread, just thought I'd throw in my $0.02. It finally showed up at my FLGS on Friday. Not accounting for the re-use of Scott Ruggles stuff from 4th (He's an underrated artist IMHO), the art is not bad at its best and really bad at its worst. A few of the art styles look like those found in Blood of Heroes stuff, which I consider to have the worst art in the history of gaming. While I understand Scott Ruggles and Storn Cook can't do every single piece of Hero art, I was hoping for something better than this. The content is very good. I think it provides something that Champs has been lacking since 5th came out: secondary and street level supervillains. I can easily see whipping up a Rogues Gallery out of a half dozen of the characters presented. You're right. The content is top-notch. Unfortunately I don't think very many non-Hero fans will ever get a chance to learn that. Allen is a very good writer. His work, and this genre, deserved a better presentation, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beetle Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? Mine showed up on the UPS truck the other day, and I pretty much have to echo the sentiments others have expressed. The content is excellent, but some of the art is just bad. On a general note, I'm getting a little weary of the recycling of 4th edition characters, even ones I liked such as Dark Angel. But so I don't end the post on a negative note, let me stress that the content is superb, and the book is well worth getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? On a general note' date=' I'm getting a little weary of the recycling of 4th edition characters, even ones I liked such as Dark Angel.[/quote'] I've felt that way for quite a while, but mostly in regards to the mainstream CU. I believe Predators will give you several new DC characters [i didn't look at the playtest to be certain]. Hopefully something similar will come about Champions as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Rose Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? I want to be sure -- and I realise this might come off as slightly scuzzy to DoJ -- would you say that there is any real advantage to spending the money on a book I "already have" (playtest version)? Based on this thread, I'm pretty much convinced I shouldn't bother, which is rather sad, since I was looking forward to this book; I'm more of a DC: TAS fan than a straight DC fan anyway, at least as it's portrayed now. Then again, I was always looking for ways to make it more "four-color" and animated style back when I only had 4th Ed DC and E4E. I'm going to pick it up eventually, just 'cause I'm a big fat HERO slut like that, so don't worry that DoJ won't get some green from me. I'm just going to put this one on the back burner. Right now my buying list looks like: UNTIL Superpowers Database II - absolutely Teen Champions - cool and awaited The HERO System Combat Handbook - one I want, but I can wait. Right now it ties with... Everyman - I want it, but I won't break my neck getting it, unless it's more than Normals Unbound for reFREd The Asian Bestiary - must have this!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? You're right. The content is top-notch. I was actually expecting more discussion and less NPCs. I.e., I'm kind of disappointed to see that it's mostly a book of foes, many being foes I wasn't too interested in. Nice to see stats for Scarlet, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? I was actually expecting more discussion and less NPCs. I.e.' date=' I'm kind of disappointed to see that it's mostly a book of foes, many being foes I wasn't too interested in. Nice to see stats for Scarlet, though. [/quote'] Well I do wish the book was longer but then the art would look even more sparse. Of course I'd like to see all the Hero books be a minimum of 200 pages. I'm willing to pay the few extra dollars for bigger books; especially for genres that will not get any short-term product support [Galactic Champions, DC:TAS, The Valdorian Age, etc.]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? We (the guys at GameHQ) have been riding the people at Alliance (the distributors) for weeks. It finally looks like the book will make it in by Wednesday June 22nd. Fortunately I bought the PDF as soon as it became available. Alliance claims that the book just showed up at their warehouse on Friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? Yes Cover Art good Interior Art Sub Standard Writing Superb Characters 1/2 Great & 1/2 Uhg! Definitely worth the price of purchase. Suggested Improvemnts: 1.) More sample Scenarios/Adventures 2.) DK:TAS Battlegrounds 3.) Expanded Genre Examples and Resources 4.) Better Artwork Cheers QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? I want to be sure -- and I realise this might come off as slightly scuzzy to DoJ -- would you say that there is any real advantage to spending the money on a book I "already have" (playtest version)? Based on this thread, I'm pretty much convinced I shouldn't bother, which is rather sad, since I was looking forward to this book; I'm more of a DC: TAS fan than a straight DC fan anyway, at least as it's portrayed now. Then again, I was always looking for ways to make it more "four-color" and animated style back when I only had 4th Ed DC and E4E. I'm going to pick it up eventually, just 'cause I'm a big fat HERO slut like that, so don't worry that DoJ won't get some green from me. I'm just going to put this one on the back burner. Right now my buying list looks like: UNTIL Superpowers Database II - absolutely Teen Champions - cool and awaited The HERO System Combat Handbook - one I want, but I can wait. Right now it ties with... Everyman - I want it, but I won't break my neck getting it, unless it's more than Normals Unbound for reFREd The Asian Bestiary - must have this!!!!!!!!! The only reason I can give you for buying the book now is that holding off buying the book creates negative cashflow for DOJ. That, in turn, makes it harder for DOJ to publish the books following DC:TAS [the cash they were expecting from the sale of DC:TAS did not come in to pay for the printing of Teen Champions]. I would never tell you to buy a book you didn't want, but since you do seem to want DC:TAS I'd suggest you not hold off on buying it. Every sale to DOJ right now is an important sale. While I normally advocate not buying products you are disappointed in [i believe the only voice we have is with our dollars and they should speak loudly when we are disappointed] buying the book could help the company now, when they are having difficulty, and lead to something more positive in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beetle Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? I want to be sure -- and I realise this might come off as slightly scuzzy to DoJ -- would you say that there is any real advantage to spending the money on a book I "already have" (playtest version)? I wonder how much of a problem this has been to DoJ? Not that we all have playtest versions, but many of the supplements that are coming out cover the same ground as the 4th edition ones many of us already have. Heck, they often have the same names. There are probably people on this board who have three versions of Fantasy Hero by this point. The content of the 5th versions tend to be much higher, but you have to have the book in your hand to realize that. There's probably not much that can be done about this (how many areas hadn't already been covered?), but I could see where it might be hurting them. Ironically, the only time it's bothered me was with Dark Champions, but because it was so different from the 4th edition not because it's the same. I'm a bit torn about Everyman because Normals Unbound is one of my favorite Hero supplements ever (it changed the way I GM). Right now my buying list looks like: UNTIL Superpowers Database II - absolutely Teen Champions - cool and awaited The HERO System Combat Handbook - one I want, but I can wait. Right now it ties with... Everyman - I want it, but I won't break my neck getting it, unless it's more than Normals Unbound for reFREd The Asian Bestiary - must have this!!!!!!!!! Hey - you forgot Pulp Hero! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Rose Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? Hey - you forgot Pulp Hero! No I didn't. Seriously, I'll buy it, but for me it's not nearly as high priority as, say, the Asian Bestiary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? Guess I'll say something about the art. I generally try not to pick on art because, generally speaking, it's usually better than anything I could muster up. So I'm going to stick with positive comments. What I liked were the attempts to adopt a Bruce Timm style to the art, namely some of the early pieces in the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loraxxx Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? ....There are some genres where you can get away with fewer pieces of art [star Hero and Fantasy Hero can get by with important portraits] but superhero products need a plentiful supply of good art in them. Good comic books are an equal balance of art to story. Good superhero game supplements need to be balanced as well. I would not buy a published Champions product that had no art except on the cover. systems-wise, i feel HERO is one of the best available, but i feel they need to make more of an emphasis on art for the following reasons--btw--when i say "visual presentation," i mean pretty pictures, as opposed to layout and charts: 1) good art makes for a more appealing product--people like things that are pretty, and you can sometimes sell a book based on the art alone.... 2) good art helps establish your game "world" in the minds of players--pictures not only helps to define how characters look, but it also creates a world for them to live in--to this day i have no real visual image of what the CU looks like.... and although many folks running champs would rather create their own worlds--many GM's (especially novice GM's)would love to have a ready-made environment simply to plug things into--i think HERO is missing the boat by not presenting a more unified look, in it's genre sourcebooks, at least--and ESPECIALLY for super-heroes.... by creating a really striking visual environment i think DOJ could attract more customers, especially newbees and converts.... 3) good art gives GM's campaign ideas--i bought PALLADIUM's COALITION sourcebooks for RIFTs solely because i thought the COALITION were wicked-cool looking, and would make great villains--i easily could adapt their look and elements from their background to just about any system.... better visual presentation in the materials could up DOJ's casual sales of support materials, which could also up sales of the main product line.... 4) one problem i had early on with HERO (i started playing 2nd edition) was visualizing how the powers/system mechanics worked--especially for some of the more esoteric aspects of play.... HERO is so unique because the system emphasizes the EFFECTS of powers over the AFFECTS of powers, or more simply, what the power DOES is the system's focus, not actually how it LOOKS.... many folks new to HERO (and some experienced players as well) will understand what effects powers like STRETCHING, GROWTH, SHRINKING, etc., have but be tripped on basic HERO-esque concepts like 'by throwing my magic hammer i'm actually using my 8d6 enegry blast/PD....' i know this sounds silly, but this has been my experience in learning/gaming with the HERO--i'm thinking that a few instructional illustrations with the text in the systems books could help clear these kinds of things up, and ultimately help DOJ sell more product by making HERO more user friendly.... 5) you can re-package and re-sell good art to collectors/players both on-line and at conventions--and ESPECIALLY at conventions, the more stuff you have at your booth to sell, the more likely you are to make a profit over the weekend.... that's all the reason's can think of right now--i'm not asking the guys at DOJ to break the bank, especially to the detriment of content, playability or system mechanics--i just think "to make it to the next level," they need to include more art in their books.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? systems-wise, i feel HERO is one of the best available, but i feel they need to make more of an emphasis on art for the following reasons--btw--when i say "visual presentation," i mean pretty pictures, as opposed to layout and charts: 1) good art makes for a more appealing product--people like things that are pretty, and you can sometimes sell a book based on the art alone.... 2) good art helps establish your game "world" in the minds of players--pictures not only helps to define how characters look, but it also creates a world for them to live in--to this day i have no real visual image of what the CU looks like.... and although many folks running champs would rather create their own worlds--many GM's (especially novice GM's)would love to have a ready-made environment simply to plug things into--i think HERO is missing the boat by not presenting a more unified look, in it's genre sourcebooks, at least--and ESPECIALLY for super-heroes.... by creating a really striking visual environment i think DOJ could attract more customers, especially newbees and converts.... 3) good art gives GM's campaign ideas--i bought PALLADIUM's COALITION sourcebooks for RIFTs solely because i thought the COALITION were wicked-cool looking, and would make great villains--i easily could adapt their look and elements from their background to just about any system.... better visual presentation in the materials could up DOJ's casual sales of support materials, which could also up sales of the main product line.... 4) one problem i had early on with HERO (i started playing 2nd edition) was visualizing how the powers/system mechanics worked--especially for some of the more esoteric aspects of play.... HERO is so unique because the system emphasizes the EFFECTS of powers over the AFFECTS of powers, or more simply, what the power DOES is the system's focus, not actually how it LOOKS.... many folks new to HERO (and some experienced players as well) will understand what effects powers like STRETCHING, GROWTH, SHRINKING, etc., have but be tripped on basic HERO-esque concepts like 'by throwing my magic hammer i'm actually using my 8d6 enegry blast/PD....' i know this sounds silly, but this has been my experience in learning/gaming with the HERO--i'm thinking that a few instructional illustrations with the text in the systems books could help clear these kinds of things up, and ultimately help DOJ sell more product by making HERO more user friendly.... 5) you can re-package and re-sell good art to collectors/players both on-line and at conventions--and ESPECIALLY at conventions, the more stuff you have at your booth to sell, the more likely you are to make a profit over the weekend.... that's all the reason's can think of right now--i'm not asking the guys at DOJ to break the bank, especially to the detriment of content, playability or system mechanics--i just think "to make it to the next level," they need to include more art in their books.... I agree with everything you just said. You want to marry my sister? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loraxxx Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? I agree with everything you just said. You want to marry my sister? sounds good, although i don't think my wife would let me..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? sounds good' date=' although i don't think my wife would let me..... [/quote'] Maybe you could talk her into it and move to Utah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loraxxx Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? Maybe you could talk her into it and move to Utah? she has an over-whelming fear of mormons..... although i appreciate the kind offer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Ciaramella Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? I am not surprised to hear that the interior art in DC:TAS is disappointing. Steve Long has repeatedly made it clear that interior art is not a priority for their products... fine, I say. What I do not understand though is for every time he makes that clear, the other side (the customers and reviewers) chime in and say that a certain quality level of interior art matters to them. Who does Steve Long produce these books for if not for the people who purchase them? The saying goes that the customer is right, and while there is no need to do a 180 degree turn and suddenly go state of the art with their art, perhaps putting forth the additional effort to reduce the recycling of old art and to get creative with who they go to for the new art might satisfy the customer base, a wise decision. Heck, there are some pretty excellent artists here on the forums that would probably jump at the chance to get exposure for their work. Perhaps there needs to be a Art Director for Hero Games (perhaps there is one, I never really have looked to see). As to what I hear about layout and proofreading problems... sounds like when Steve Long ramped up the number of books on the schedual, perhaps he ramped it up a bit too much. Reconsidering the pace he has set for the company might be a good idea, quality is more important than quality if Hero Games is going to maintain a decent reputation. But these are the thoughts of just a single customer, I do not expect that anything I am saying will make an impression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? As to what I hear about layout and proofreading problems... sounds like when Steve Long ramped up the number of books on the schedual, perhaps he ramped it up a bit too much. Reconsidering the pace he has set for the company might be a good idea, quality is more important than quality if Hero Games is going to maintain a decent reputation. But these are the thoughts of just a single customer, I do not expect that anything I am saying will make an impression. Well, you can consider it the thought of two customers. While I do not want to see the books devolve into style over substance, style and substance are not mutually exclusive. Especially in a book named "DC: The Animated Series" that is obviously paying homage to a particular style. I haven't had the chance to pick up the book, but I was hoping for art depicting the Bruce Timm style used in the DC:Animated, and even a few pictures drawn in the style of the Spiderman cartoons, X-Men cartoon of the 90's or X-Men: Evolution from around 2000. I haven't noticed the editing errors so much, but I also agree that quality should not be sacrificed, it has been one of the hallmarks of the DoJ published books that they paid attention to details that slipped by many of the other publishers. I will continue to purchase books as long as they provide good information, but there is also the concern of how these books will bring in new people to the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? ...perhaps putting forth the additional effort to reduce the recycling of old art and to get creative with who they go to for the new art might satisfy the customer base' date=' a wise decision.[/quote'] The question is whether it's an issue of *effort* or *money*. If DOJ can't afford to make top-notch art a priority for every product, I can understand (hence my suggestion that I'd prefer to see no art than crappy art if it will save them more money). As for releasing too many books, I get the impression that this is not the case, and that cutting back on the release schedule would probably hurt their bottom line. The comments I've seen from Steve and Darren have made it clear that they don't believe that DOJ is sustainable investing in color and hardcovers. They've said that the cannot maintain their necessary profit margin going that route wihtout a significant increase in the price of their books. I don't have any basis to claim this isn't true. Nonetheless, I keep my fingers crossed that one day we'll see a HERO book that looks as snazzy as an M&M or D&D release. As long as the content remains top-notch (which it does, for the msot part), I'll survive until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samurai007 Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? I am not surprised to hear that the interior art in DC:TAS is disappointing. Steve Long has repeatedly made it clear that interior art is not a priority for their products... fine' date=' I say. What I do not understand though is for every time he makes that clear, the other side (the customers and reviewers) chime in and say that a certain quality level of interior art matters to [b']them[/b]. Who does Steve Long produce these books for if not for the people who purchase them? The saying goes that the customer is right, and while there is no need to do a 180 degree turn and suddenly go state of the art with their art, perhaps putting forth the additional effort to reduce the recycling of old art and to get creative with who they go to for the new art might satisfy the customer base, a wise decision. Heck, there are some pretty excellent artists here on the forums that would probably jump at the chance to get exposure for their work. Perhaps there needs to be a Art Director for Hero Games (perhaps there is one, I never really have looked to see). As to what I hear about layout and proofreading problems... sounds like when Steve Long ramped up the number of books on the schedual, perhaps he ramped it up a bit too much. Reconsidering the pace he has set for the company might be a good idea, quality is more important than quality if Hero Games is going to maintain a decent reputation. But these are the thoughts of just a single customer, I do not expect that anything I am saying will make an impression. The difference this time is that, in many peoples' opinion, DC:TAS is a BIG step down from the usual DoJ art effort. It was, with only a few exceptions (mostly the 4e reprint art), really bad. Embarrasingly bad. Jr. High notebook scribble bad. Blood of Heroes bad. It also (with a couple exceptions) wasn't even attempting to create an animated style, as you might expect in an "Animated Series" sourcebook. You don't need a huge art budget to get better work than DC:TAS had. In fact, it prompted me to write to DoJ and offer my services as an artist. I'm sure there are a lot of artists out there who'd be happy to work for DoJ who can do a much better job than we saw in TAS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? The difference this time is that, in many peoples' opinion, DC:TAS is a BIG step down from the usual DoJ art effort. It was, with only a few exceptions (mostly the 4e reprint art), really bad. Embarrasingly bad. Jr. High notebook scribble bad. Blood of Heroes bad. It also (with a couple exceptions) wasn't even attempting to create an animated style, as you might expect in an "Animated Series" sourcebook. You don't need a huge art budget to get better work than DC:TAS had. In fact, it prompted me to write to DoJ and offer my services as an artist. I'm sure there are a lot of artists out there who'd be happy to work for DoJ who can do a much better job than we saw in TAS. I would certainly recommend your work. I have enjoyed seeing your work in Digital Hero and some that you posted on the GOO boards a while back. You are a fine artist, several steps above many of those used in DC:TAS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Re: Anyone get DC: TAS yet? Samurai007, is there a site where we can take a look at your work? I don't have any issues of DH, sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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