zornwil Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action I don't have much to say at the moment as I'm still brainburned, insufficently caffinated and scrambling to finish a project I'm delivering today... But I wanted to pitch in my support to Zorn's idea. Heck..if we want to do this and don't want to be threatening to folk who are leary of a 6th edition(I know I am...I'm still working with Fred because I can't justify 5er in my budget right now) the conclusions we reach could always be submitted as DH articles. If I have time I'd be happy to contribute. Heck...I'm probably gonna work on some of these ideas regardless... it'd be nice to have a bunch of other HERO geniuses helping. Thats why I post new ideas to the board in the first place. Virtual Brainstorming. Oh, absolutely, I don't think any member of such a group should drop individual pursuits, not at all! I want to keep working on other ideas, many of which would be zero priority to such a group. DH is a great outlet, btw, can't believe I didn't think about that. It'd be a kick to submit articles from "The HERO Society" or some-such. Please drop me a note with your address, thx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Oh, absolutely, I don't think any member of such a group should drop individual pursuits, not at all! I want to keep working on other ideas, many of which would be zero priority to such a group. DH is a great outlet, btw, can't believe I didn't think about that. It'd be a kick to submit articles from "The HERO Society" or some-such. Please drop me a note with your address, thx. Done and Done. Maybe we should call ourselves the HERO Skunkworks The only issue I see with DH submissions is that they, in theory, pay for the publication, which could throw a wrench into the idea of an all volunteer cadre of brainiacs. Unless we tell them to roll Society payments into the budget for the annual Dundracon HERO party or somesuch. That could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Done and Done. Maybe we should call ourselves the HERO Skunkworks Something smells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action and then when the suggestions are compiled we get 6th edition? no thank you. I don't see it that way. I see this group as taking a very "long haul" perspective and not wedded to attempting some big batch of changes. I see various postings/releases of ideas, as I indicated above, some suitable simply as possible house rules, some situational, and I suspect only a minority would we, as a group, really endorse as "the rules should change!" I would enjoy the last part the most, because that's my nature, but realistically the bar for change to core rules should be very high. And in reaction to whatever the current edition is, even if the change is fundamental, i.e., I would think that we'd be working at a mechanics level or a rules level and either way such changes would really be in sub-systems, not entire system-wide rewrites. But who can predict? I can say that I would want in place some sort of process by which a governing body would only approve an actual rules change recommendation after lengthy, certified testing, and by some large majority such as 2/3 or even perhaps 3/4. The idea is a rules change should be really highly justified. I expect most of the time we probably wouldn't agree to large rules changes - that's okay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action I expect most of the time we probably wouldn't agree to large rules changes - that's okay! I think by nature you're going to be selecting members from a subset of HERO users who favor changes and not selecting form those who are fine with things as they are. I imagine you're problem will not be agreeing that a change is needed, only in agreeing to the details of that change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Done and Done. Maybe we should call ourselves the HERO Skunkworks The only issue I see with DH submissions is that they, in theory, pay for the publication, which could throw a wrench into the idea of an all volunteer cadre of brainiacs. Unless we tell them to roll Society payments into the budget for the annual Dundracon HERO party or somesuch. That could work. Good ideas, all accounts, though I do like "Society" more than "Skunkworks"...but that's just me. Skunkworks is really a better name. Let me tell you (all) a story, by the way, one which "skunkworks" reminds me of. I own a piece of Digital Audio gear for recording that didn't "live" very long. It was made by Ensoniq, who were then bought by E-mu, who were then bought by (gasp) Creative Labs. Through that process, the hardware/software combo was basically killed off, and is now technically obsolete. This was great gear, and in fact has been used in a few award-winning recordings in the C&W, jazz, and gospel fields. There was a lot of despair, particularly as the software provider turned "idle" (they had other commitments, this is a very long story so I won't go there), and stopped issuing updates. And there was an issue of that company not being responsible for the hardware drivers, which were owned by E-mu/Creative Labs, and which didn't support Win2K or XP. But guess what happened? A dedicated group formed and started working on a new driver and on plug-ins. They managed to convince E-Mu to release the driver and let them work on it! The hardware/software remains alive through that groups effort. Their name includes "skunkworks", naturally enough, so this reminded me of that. The point is, cool stuff can happen...and in that situation things were grim. Here we have tremendous opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action I think by nature you're going to be selecting members from a subset of HERO users who favor changes and not selecting form those who are fine with things as they are. I imagine you're problem will not be agreeing that a change is needed, only in agreeing to the details of that change. I suspect you're right. But I want there to be a barrier to change. And I entirely welcome people who don't want change - I just don't want people who turn off conversation without making a case as to why. PS - personally, actually, I'm fairly resistant to core changes. I like to talk a lot and for house rules that's fine, but real system change requires serious validation and serious justification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Seeman Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action PS - actually' date=' Ben, involvement by a DOJ member would be most welcome, in fact highly prized. I would just ask they recognize the body as independent - just as I recognize that DOJ has zero reason to take it seriously and zero obligation.[/quote'] Oh we're not going to try to stop this from happening. This is an interesting study. I doubt anyone from DoJ will have any serious involvement simply because we do not have the time. It is interesting to me, but the only input that I would give would be "Hey, if you like doing it that way, then do it that way," and I know that responses like that are hardly helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Oh we're not going to try to stop this from happening. This is an interesting study. I doubt anyone from DoJ will have any serious involvement simply because we do not have the time. It is interesting to me, but the only input that I would give would be "Hey, if you like doing it that way, then do it that way," and I know that responses like that are hardly helpful. Heh, yeah, true. I realize time is a huge barrier, which is why I hope we can, in the end, give DOJ good info to assist, helping in the development cycle. IF (big if, I admit) we can get such a thing off the ground and become effective, I could also see us being a good group to playtest anything you guys felt was safe enough to send our way, if it's a specific rules idea or such. But like I said earlier in this thread, we'd really have to build some credibility to get to that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action and then when the suggestions are compiled we get 6th edition? no thank you. Eventually there will be a 6E anyway. The real question is will there be any fan-base left to care by then? This isn't a "if it's not broke dont' fix it" concept. This is a "how do you get more people involved in the game and buying the books" concept. I don't want to see a 750 page 6E when the game can be easily played with a 300 page book. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Oh, now, come on (edit - said light-heartedly), if there was a fan base around for 5th, there'll assuredly be one for 6th. I, for one, was pretty despairing and turned off to HERO, as a company not as a system, before 5th became a reality. Heck, I saw the draft before DOJ took over (don't worry, it was closely guarded and I was not allowed nor did I ask of course to copy or otherwise get anything more than "a look") and said, "well, that's nice, but I'm not interested, I don't even think I like a lot of it." Oh, yeah, not interested... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Well, I'm pretty encouraged by the responses! Thanks. There's a few more folks I hope are interested, but I don't want to push anybody, though I might send a few PMs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action I'm also one who is actually resistant to change... but not to ideas about change. The ideas come fast and furious... which prods along the very slow process of actual change. I think of my ideas as the waves beating against a basalt cliff. One wave does little... but hundreds of thousands over long periods of time, wear away and create the new and different. I'm also not one to change things and dismiss what has come before. What I like about the Toolkit approach to Hero is that you can have multiple interpretations at once. There just needs to be clear meta-rules... or in this case, clear Axioms from which to start. I think this is where I do agree with MitchelS... just from a different angle. I've got no problem with 5ER as it stands... except that I don't play that system. I support the core Axioms of Hero... but what I play could be called RDU Hero 4.5. What I think the larger RPG community (which is shrinking in and of itself) might need is even a third/different version of Hero to attract them and their dollars. I'm open to one Hero... but many interpretations... and publish the interpretation that catches on the best... while maintaining the Core Axioms and Mechanics of a truly generic Hero. (That would mean thinning 5ER quite a bit... but hey...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action I'm also one who is actually resistant to change... but not to ideas about change. The ideas come fast and furious... which prods along the very slow process of actual change. I think of my ideas as the waves beating against a basalt cliff. One wave does little... but hundreds of thousands over long periods of time, wear away and create the new and different. I'm also not one to change things and dismiss what has come before. What I like about the Toolkit approach to Hero is that you can have multiple interpretations at once. There just needs to be clear meta-rules... or in this case, clear Axioms from which to start. I think this is where I do agree with MitchelS... just from a different angle. I've got no problem with 5ER as it stands... except that I don't play that system. I support the core Axioms of Hero... but what I play could be called RDU Hero 4.5. What I think the larger RPG community (which is shrinking in and of itself) might need is even a third/different version of Hero to attract them and their dollars. I'm open to one Hero... but many interpretations... and publish the interpretation that catches on the best... while maintaining the Core Axioms and Mechanics of a truly generic Hero. (That would mean thinning 5ER quite a bit... but hey...) So what you're saying is that you want One HERO to rule them all, One HERO to find them, One HERO to bring them all and in the darkness bind them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action I've got no problem with 5ER as it stands... except that I don't play that system. I support the core Axioms of Hero... but what I play could be called RDU Hero 4.5. (snippage) I bet a lot of people could say the same (well, not that they play RDU Hero, you know what I mean! ). In fact, rather a tangent but still, I think that's one of the big reasons for occasional acrimony over refused customizations to HD - the (understandable) purpose of HD is to implement HERO, period, whereas HERO ironically encourages people to build their own little versions of HERO, so a conflict arises. (BTW, PLEASE do not take this as any form of attack at all on HD, I'm simply stating the conditions, and I think it's understandable as to HD's limits and I'm good with that, and even if I weren't good with it, this isn't the place for that discussion) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action I bet a lot of people could say the same (well, not that they play RDU Hero, you know what I mean! ). In fact, rather a tangent but still, I think that's one of the big reasons for occasional acrimony over refused customizations to HD - the (understandable) purpose of HD is to implement HERO, period, whereas HERO ironically encourages people to build their own little versions of HERO, so a conflict arises. (BTW, PLEASE do not take this as any form of attack at all on HD, I'm simply stating the conditions, and I think it's understandable as to HD's limits and I'm good with that, and even if I weren't good with it, this isn't the place for that discussion) Totally... and not only that, but Hero Designer is DOJ's Hero... if I interpret you correctly. My feeling is that 5ER is one interpretation of Hero (the current dominant one) but from a theoretical POV is not the core Hero. What Skunk-Hero would be set up to do is to try and excavate the Core Hero (Axioms and core Mechanics) from the twenty plus years history of the game and system. That is, if Core Hero even exists. Then, one outcome of this would be to push for a Side Kick-like book that was streamlined and truly a generic core system. Axiomatic Hero? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Ah, it's all about priorities! But, yes, I think the axiomatic and core mechanics is a necessary first understanding. I'm sure our first arguments (as a group, not necessarily you and I) will be related to action versus study! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Sure, I'm interested. This seems to me to formalize what we do on the boards informally anyway - discuss means to improve the game. Whether DoJ adopts it, players adopt it or I adopt it in my own game isn't the issue. I agree that the first step is to determine the core axioms. [Can we keep "3d6"?] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Sure, I'm interested. This seems to me to formalize what we do on the boards informally anyway - discuss means to improve the game. Whether DoJ adopts it, players adopt it or I adopt it in my own game isn't the issue. I agree that the first step is to determine the core axioms. [Can we keep "3d6"?] I like 3d6 - though I'd say it's more of a core mechanic than axiom per se. Hugh, would you please drop me your email either via the board e-mail or PM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy_The_Ruthles Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Eventually there will be a 6E anyway. The real question is will there be any fan-base left to care by then? This isn't a "if it's not broke dont' fix it" concept. This is a "how do you get more people involved in the game and buying the books" concept. I don't want to see a 750 page 6E when the game can be easily played with a 300 page book. YMMV. I want to see a 750 page 6th E. More to read, more to do on car rides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Squirrel Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action I say we keep Steve Long. Can we keep Steve Long? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action I say we keep Steve Long. Can we keep Steve Long? Can I vote nay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Thankfully, such decisions are outside of the scope! As a side note, however joking SS' note was, I really don't want to even discuss DOJ politics or the good or bad of whoever is driving the products. I want this to be very much an independent think tank, if you will, and I don't want to be part of taking any official (or otherwise) stance on whether DOJ is doing something right, wrong, or indifferent, except where we may have reasonable and honorable disagreements on rules directions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy_The_Ruthles Posted June 17, 2005 Report Share Posted June 17, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action I think we should re-enginer the d6 to have 5 sides and a psudo-temporal sixth side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted June 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2005 Re: An Open Call to Action Man, it's that kind of thinking that's going to revolutionize HERO for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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