Is Mind Scan broken?

[Vondy]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Exactly - within the letter of the rules and completely outside the spirit of the game. Would I disallow the approach? Absolutely. Would a power gamer argue that "the rules say I can". Positively.

 

 

The rules also say: "Don't let the rules lawyers among your players ruin everyone else's fun." P551.

[BlackSword]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

here's another "evil GM" idea. You roll the mind scan dice' date=' if he fails by a large amount, maybe he hit someone else and thought it was the right mind (after all never meeting the guy you can make theses mistakes). Instead of dropping a bank robber, he hits a corporate embezzler, who gets up and sues MindSni00r for a million dollars for mental assult.[/quote']

Or go with the method used in JL:Animated. Martian Manhunter was scanning Metropolis for Lex Luthor and eventually could not block out the minds so he had to go into the forest away from people in order to 'calm' down (and regain his trust in humanity).

[gregghelmberger]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Telepathy (or "mind-reaming" has always been more of a problem in my games).

 

Hmmm, OK, there's another one I have no experience with, although the difficulties for the GM seem manifest with that Power. What are some of your horror stories around Telepathy?

[Fox1]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Every single power and ability in HERO is broken unless used in a way suited to the campaign at hand.

[MitchellS]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Hmmm' date=' OK, there's another one I have no experience with, although the difficulties for the GM seem manifest with that Power. What are some of your horror stories around Telepathy?[/quote']

Well the standard 12d6 telepathy attack gives a 42 roll. That's +30 on most people. So every agent caught will give up the known master plan, base location, etc, etc, etc fairly easily. Most players don't play the character in genre. The characters are played in an adversariel capacity of "get all the info I can." It's hard for a GM to keep secrets in the game when there's a telepath around.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

I had a character with a VPP of "symbiot powers", with a pool of 60pts. One of these powers was a 60pt telepathy, with no range, because i had to touch them and stick the symbiot in their ear to read their mind. Add in Editic memory (which i bought a few sessions later, but our docter had at the time), and someone catches a bad guy, holds them down. Baby Joe (me) goes in with the mind slug, reads their memories, subconcious etc. Then downloads it to the editic memory character for later storage.

 

end result? we know all your secrets if we catch you.

[Vondy]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Well the standard 12d6 telepathy attack gives a 42 roll. That's +30 on most people. So every agent caught will give up the known master plan' date=' base location, etc, etc, etc fairly easily. Most players don't play the character in genre. The characters are played in an adversariel capacity of "get all the info I can." It's hard for a GM to keep secrets in the game when there's a telepath around.[/quote']

 

The telepath in my game had a strong dislike for the forcible use of telepathy, or the use of mind control outside of tactical uses ("keep that dead mans switch nice and tight!"). She used her power-pool to create a detect "falsehood and deception" and to give her major bonuses to her interrogation roll (though she could whip out a 15d6 telepathic proble if she really wanted to). Then we'd roleplay the interrogation. She'd only use invasive telepathy or mind control when there was a pressing (really pressing) need to do so.

 

It also depends on how much the standard goons actually know. They may not be in on the details of the master plan, especially if they're just chumps. Or they may have been deliberately mislead about who they are working for, or where the villians real hideout is, or what the actual scope of the operation is. They may only know about their part in it, and may have only been introduced to one or two people (the next link the players need to check out for the plot). This isn't just screw with the mentalist stuff. False flag recruitments and compartmentalization are quite normal in intelligence situations (which I admit my game is heavy on). The party may have to work their way up to an important henchmen to get the crown jewels with telepathy.

[gregghelmberger]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

And of course, in a world where telepathy was known to exist and be in the hands of their enemies, any organization would have to be idiotic not to compartmentalize information as much as possible, or even implant false memories. That's not 'screwing with the mentalist,' that's just taking elementary precautions.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Not at all! I love Mind Scan. It works great!

[Rapier]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

On the surface it may seem so, however consider the time it would take to search Chicago for a single person. You are still talking, roughly, about a grid search pattern. Throw in the fact that most of the city is not stationary. You are going to search through the same people a number of times.

 

I've also demanded that there be some kind of familiarity with the target. If you have never met someone how do you know you've found them?

 

With a little bit of common sense and fair play, Mind Scan is not at all broken.

[Fox1]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

With a little bit of common sense and fair play' date=' Mind Scan is not at all broken.[/quote']

 

It can still easily be 'broken', the attacker doesn't have to be a city away. Hidden a few blocks away or inside a heavily defended local or team vehicle is enough.

 

Nor is the City modifier really that much of a limit. Such a character can always look to their fellow team members to act as forward observers. In this role they function as off board artillery that baring an enemy mentalist has an excellent safe haven from counter attack.

 

Balance is found in the specific builds, the specific foes, and the specific environment. Balance is not found within the concept itself. These issues shouldn't be passed over as a simple matter of "a little bit of common sense". They need to be examined and the power bought in such a way as to match the desired genre.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Well the standard 12d6 telepathy attack gives a 42 roll. That's +30 on most people. So every agent caught will give up the known master plan' date=' base location, etc, etc, etc fairly easily. Most players don't play the character in genre. The characters are played in an adversariel capacity of "get all the info I can." It's hard for a GM to keep secrets in the game when there's a telepath around.[/quote']

 

Add in the fact that it's easy to do a Telepathic Haymaker on your captured target, and the result roll average rises to 56.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

I had a character with a VPP of "symbiot powers", with a pool of 60pts. One of these powers was a 60pt telepathy, with no range, because i had to touch them and stick the symbiot in their ear to read their mind. Add in Editic memory (which i bought a few sessions later, but our docter had at the time), and someone catches a bad guy, holds them down. Baby Joe (me) goes in with the mind slug, reads their memories, subconcious etc. Then downloads it to the editic memory character for later storage.

 

end result? we know all your secrets if we catch you.

 

Teammate:"So where's the secret hidden base?"

Mentalist: "I'm still stuck on his 7th grade memories! Gah! How do I fast forward!"

Teammate: "But it's in there, right?"

Mentalist: "Somewhere, but there's just so much crap! Wait. Wait. Found it! It's right here: Dantoine!"

Teammate: "That's 'Star Wars'!"

Mentalist: "Oh, wait, here it is: 1313 Mockingbird Lane. I'm sure of it!"

Teammate: "That's 'The Munsters'!"

Mentalist: "Boy, this guy sure watched a lot of stuff. Oh, wait! Here it is! The leader is at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue."

Teammate: "Let's scramble the team!"

Mentalist: "Yeah, you can't miss it, it's a big, white house."

 

Just because you recorded everything, doesn't mean it's easily searchable.

 

JoeG

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

we treat the mind like a computer, open up a search command and enter in what you want to find. An Int Check (especially when you've downloaded it all already to your mind) tells you how fast you can get it, with each failure going up on the time chart (i assume i've never actually had to do this, but it makes sense to me).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

For situations like this, I use a base time of 1 minute with every 2pts of success (on an INT roll) moving the search time up 1 level on the time chart (critical success is instant) and for each 1pt failed by dropping the search time on the time chart (a critical failure is nothing gained or perhaps wrong info)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Basically, what I'm reading from the various Telepathy slowdowns and stoppers is that you shouldn't have allowed the PC to have telepathyu in the first place.

 

The effect roll determines what you can find. Ask your question, anmd go look for the answer. If you get an Ego +30 roll, you should be able to find it - with that attack, in that phase - assuming it's in there.

[Greywind]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Add in the fact that it's easy to do a Telepathic Haymaker on your captured target' date=' and the result roll average rises to 56.[/quote']

Is that a specific build or an unlimited push? I wasn't aware that powers could use specifc combat maneuvers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Is that a specific build or an unlimited push? I wasn't aware that powers could use specifc combat maneuvers.

 

Since 5e, all attack powers have been able to haymaker.

[MitchellS]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

Since 5e' date=' all attack powers have been able to haymaker.[/quote']

Presence attacks as well.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

I have recently been of the opinion that Mind Scan is very broken. Here is why: Desolidification can allow a character to attack opponents while only being subject to:

1. Mental Attacks
   
2. A specific kind of attack defined by the Desolidification
   
3. Attacks bought with Affects Desolidified

In addition, for the character's attacks to affect opponents they must buy them with the very expensive Affects Physical World Advantage.

 

Mind Scan (from a decent distance), on the other hand, leaves the character open to only Mental Attacks, and allows them to affect opponents without requiring the character to buy any Advantages whatsoever on the Mental Powers.

 

P.S. - Someone mentioned using Clairsentience to establish Line of Sight. In 5E this was explicitly not possible (which I do personally think is stupid, but that's how it is spelled out in the standard rules). 5ER might have changed this, but I doubt it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Mind Scan broken?

 

P.S. - Someone mentioned using Clairsentience to establish Line of Sight. In 5E this was explicitly not possible (which I do personally think is stupid' date=' but that's how it is spelled out in the standard rules). 5ER might have changed this, but I doubt it.[/quote']

 

Telescopic N Ray Visoio (megascaled to taste) works better anyway.