Mentalist Conundrum

[zornwil]

One factor in many campaigns is how commonly are people able to defend against mental attacks, especially heroes, and, just as importantly, how common are mentalists and therefore techniques to defeat them.

 

To make this black and white for simplicity, a world with very few mentalists and little mentalist defense ends up with mentalists being very powerful de facto as few supers, then, have a rationale, frequently, to have any MD. Not saying no supers will, but generally so many won't that mentalists are much more likely to really slam someone immediately or, conversely, have some otherwise-regular sort of gradient of results from some resistance to lots.

 

Whereas a world with many mentalists and/or reason to build defenses against mentalists often end up with weakened mentalists as just about every "important" NPC and almost all the PCs have some sort of reason to build up strength against mentalists.

 

It's hard to hit a sweet spot in-between without being either a little wonky (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) by explaining how defenses are "just rare enough" and mentalists "just not enough of a threat" so that major supers with means don't all end up with some significant MD as well as techniques for at least the highest-level human security officers. You have to resort to some sort of esoteric production process or some limitations on the top end of what mentalists generally/mostly do to account for this or otherwise have a reason to have that combination of retardation of defenses and some regularity of mental powers/defenses.

 

I'm not suggesting anything wrong at all with all of the in-genre defenses, such as mentalists not just sitting around their amazing fortress and reaching out and sniping others while sipping brandy, and also mentalists hiding from combat all the time, lurking around corners. I'm just saying that mostly we all end up with some interesting rationales and approaches to balance mental powers. And I would point out that often these simply put mental powers at one end or the other of the spectrum and just rely on good RPing to be sensible about it. For example, I know some have mentalists as rare and mental defenses very light except for rare justifications, but it works because mentalists don't go "too far" and/or the mental powers are restrained. And on the other end, which I tend to play, mental defenses are kind of common, but mentalists can certainly buy up significant power levels and they keep it in check except for the needed dramatic moments by in-genre roleplaying and character personas.

 

So all this rambling is, nothing heavy here, no philosophy of something right or wrong, just wondering on others' thoughts on this, and how they address it?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

And speaking of Mental Powers...

 

An excellent question zornwil, and one I've often thought about and never found an answer that I can reasonably explain. I can give a recent example of how Mental Powers were used in a campaign I ran last year though.

 

I had already decided that Mental Powers were going to be common. Maybe not as common as EB and RKA and HA, but definately more common than Adjustment Powers. I had also decided that Mental Defense was going to be relatively rare (oddly, Power Defense was going to be common, nearly as common as PD & ED, but that's a different example). The 'balancing' factor, if you can call it that, was that high EGOs were going to be common among all character types. Unless the character was the lowest mook, his EGO was at least 11, and minions important enough to have a name had a minimum of 13.

 

When I decided all of this, I wasn't quite sure how it would turn out. My primarily concern was the insignificent combat effects Mental Powers tended to have. I had noticed that Mental Illusions could only reliably achieve a minor change, and Mind Control only worked if it went along with the target's Psych Limits and/or the attacker acompanied it with a wonderful soliloquey. So I figured if fewer targets had Mental Defense, it would widen up their options. I raised the expected EGO values to give the targets a better EGO Roll to break the effect to balance this out a bit.

 

Then the strangest thing happened. It worked. I even had a PC who liked to Rapid Fire Ego Attacks at people, and she still wasn't much of a powerhouse. I was very surprised that everything stayed together considering that.

[zornwil]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

That's an interesting approach, I like it.

 

DR, as a corollary, based on your experience, how do you feel it would work, then if EGO were 1 for 1 but MD were 1 for 2 (or even 1 for 3), inverting the costs, which I feel might reflect how you're approaching it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

That's an interesting approach' date=' I like it. [/quote']

thank you

 

DR, as a corollary, based on your experience, how do you feel it would work, then if EGO were 1 for 1 but MD were 1 for 2 (or even 1 for 3), inverting the costs, which I feel might reflect how you're approaching it.

 

I rather like the current cost for EGO. After taking into account the Figured cost of SPD, EGO is the same cost as DEX, and both figure their CV the same. It makes for a nice balance that way. Mental Defense is too useful to be that cheep though, regardless of what EGO costs. More often that not, a good 10 points of MD is enough to protect you from the worst effects, and tends to cut Ego Attack damage by half (for a 60 point attack power game).

 

Generally, I'm almost always against changing the base cost of something. I think just about everything can be "fixed' simply by proper application rather than jury rigging the system.

[zornwil]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

thank you

 

 

 

I rather like the current cost for EGO. After taking into account the Figured cost of SPD, EGO is the same cost as DEX, and both figure their CV the same. It makes for a nice balance that way. Mental Defense is too useful to be that cheep though, regardless of what EGO costs. More often that not, a good 10 points of MD is enough to protect you from the worst effects, and tends to cut Ego Attack damage by half (for a 60 point attack power game).

 

Generally, I'm almost always against changing the base cost of something. I think just about everything can be "fixed' simply by proper application rather than jury rigging the system.

BTW, to be clear, I was only speaking as a house rule to do much of what you did.

 

Personally I just let the mentalists buy up their mental powers to compensate for MD commonality. They gain some leverage with me to do special constructs for costs savings, if it's in-concept and fair.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

BTW' date=' to be clear, I was only speaking as a house rule to do much of what you did.[/quote']

Understood. And it's what I assumed you meant. So far, I've only house ruled the cost of one thing, and that's Lightning Reflexes. Everything else I feel is more or less self balancing.

 

Personally I just let the mentalists buy up their mental powers to compensate for MD commonality. They gain some leverage with me to do special constructs for costs savings, if it's in-concept and fair.

 

I suppose do the opposite. I simply remove the level of defense, allowing them to use fewer dice for the same effect on average, and not get that god-like power against a completely defenseless target. While at the same time, they've saved points for a greater variety of powers and a well rounded character.

[zornwil]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

Understood. And it's what I assumed you meant. So far, I've only house ruled the cost of one thing, and that's Lightning Reflexes. Everything else I feel is more or less self balancing.

 

 

 

I suppose do the opposite. I simply remove the level of defense, allowing them to use fewer dice for the same effect on average, and not get that god-like power against a completely defenseless target. While at the same time, they've saved points for a greater variety of powers and a well rounded character.

Yeah, good approach. And that's why I posted, curiousity.

[Vondy]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

I like the sipping brandy imagery.

 

In my games I've never had a problem with the fact that mentalists are rare, as is (blanket) mental defense. Yes, when a mentalist sinks their claws into someone it hurts, but, IMG, they're regarded as a big enough threat because of their effectiveness that they also end up being Target One. This is an organic and reflexive response shared by my players and non-player characters alike. No one likes having someone screw with their head and mentalists tend to get the full brunt of that dislike. As a result, mentalists have ended up being like cold war era tanks. They're set pieces that have to be deployed and protected properly or they end up being sitting ducks. Lets say my players were going up against eurostar (as currently written). I can guess their tactics right off. Combined attack mentalla into the dirt (and make sure she stays there), then keep the others busy while they double team le sone (because mentalists in my game all pretty much take X2 Stun from Sonics). Then finish off the others one by one. Aside from basic defense, no one would bother with the other flunkies until Mentalla was dealt with - with extreme prejudice.

 

As for sipping brandy - that's really expensive. You have to have your mind scan outside the framework with your mental powers, or purchase a reserve that can run both of them at one time. And mind scan gets more and more difficult the farther away you are. "Using a perception puppet" is also fairly expensive, and unless you purchase your mental powers with IPE, people will identify the perception puppet as being the source of the attack and he'll end of on the receiving end of all that mentalist-hating firepower. There are other ways, of course: detect minds with targeting, but by the time you end up adding ranged, sense, 360 degrees, discriminatory, and buy up the perception roll to a reliable level (say 15-) that's not so cheap either. In most cases you'd do better to buy a pair of field glasses and sip your brandy LOS from some tall buildings observation deck, but then, remember one of murphy's laws of combat is: if you can see the enemy, the enemy can see you. An energy projector with telescopic vision and no range modifiers could really ruin your day. And there are a lot of ways to make mind scan more reasonable (see my comments in the "is mind scan broken?" thread).

 

I guess my point is: I've never had too many problems with mentalists in my games. They're very powerful and very effective in their narrow arena; they're also a major target.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

I think my approach (our group's approach) is similar to much of what has been written here. We were hesitant for years to run all-out badass mentalists. Not only were they relatively rare, but mental defense was natural, magical or non-existent. No supertech could create it... so mental powers were scary shit. I liked this approach and still do... but as the game is approaching the end of it's second decande it has evolved. Tech based on an alien living crystal has become available and mental defense can now be found a bit more often (though still rare) and mentalists are still scary... but still rare. When Menton died the first time the shockwaves of this event wiped out a lot of psionic sensatives (or at least their abilities) and now... about 9 years later, after Locke died (for the third time) killing Menton for good (wiping out his psychic self) we have seen an increase in psionic abilities. This worries many... and it should.

 

I like the idea of powers (mental or not) being scary and destabilizing... insidious powers like psionics are even worse. The provide real tension and threat... and I like that feel for my world.

[zornwil]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

...but mental defense was natural' date=' magical or non-existent. No supertech could create it...[/quote']

 

What, no tinfoil in your world?

 

 

That's what we usually refer to our super-genius agent as wearing, his tinfoil hat, to shield from mentalist. Him being a conspiracy nut (even if often correct and even where not, catching the nerve of something unusual somehow), it just fits.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

What, no tinfoil in your world?

 

 

That's what we usually refer to our super-genius agent as wearing, his tinfoil hat, to shield from mentalist. Him being a conspiracy nut (even if often correct and even where not, catching the nerve of something unusual somehow), it just fits.

 

But Zornwil, you realize this means that there exists in your game setting both magical tinfoil and mundane tinfoil, don't you? After all, normal tin foil would not automatically grant another character the same Power!

 

And... if you bring Magical Tinfoil and Normal Tinfoil together, it causes a paradoxical rupture in the space-time continuum... DESTROYING THE UNIVERSE AND ALL LIFE AS WE KNOW IT!

 

There it is, your next game session: preventing the destruction of the universe due to the juxtaposition of Normal and Magical Tinfoil.

[Vondy]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

What, no tinfoil in your world?

 

 

That's what we usually refer to our super-genius agent as wearing, his tinfoil hat, to shield from mentalist. Him being a conspiracy nut (even if often correct and even where not, catching the nerve of something unusual somehow), it just fits.

 

My game has a number of in jokes. If you make a tinfoil hat you get 1 Point of Mental Defense (mostly because you are crazy enough to believe it would work).

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

i like the idea of tin foil hats giving a character telepathy instead of protecting them from it. The irony is tasty

[RDU Neil]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

What, no tinfoil in your world?

 

 

 

Honestly... no one has ever tried this in my games. One joke that just has never happened in the twenty five years of gaming. Dunno what that says about our group, because bad jokes are derigeur.

 

I have established that crazy people do have a level of mental defense and/or mental damage shield in the past... so I'd probably allow the 1 pt defense idea that Von mentioned. That's pretty funny.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

My game has a number of in jokes. If you make a tinfoil hat you get 1 Point of Mental Defense (mostly because you are crazy enough to believe it would work).

 

Ahhh...the placebo effect!

 

EDIT: If mental powers really exist, is the guy who believes in them and tries to protect himself really that crazy?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

Tin Foil Hat: Mental Defense +5 points, OAF, Fragile, Side Effect: Vulnerability To Microwave Beams (x2 STUN & BODY; -1/2) Real Cost: 2 points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

One of the most effective mental defences is levels, either with ECV/DECV or (even more so) for breakout rolls, although the latter doesn't help with Ego Attacks. If mind powers are normal I would imagine that most people would get level based defences rather than mental defence - certainly mundanes - the trained CIA agent, for example, is far more likely to know how to twist out of a mental attack than block it.

 

One house rule I usually use is that you can get a bonus to skill rolls for attacks but not defences, so an attacking mentalist willing to spend an hour worming their way in gets a skill bonus which I allow to be split between attack roll and negating breakout rolls. Basically if you are captured and a mentalist has time to work on you, you are probably screwed without mental defence, but in combat the 'slippery mind' is effective enough defence.

[lemming]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

In my game, which I'm working to bring into PBEM(or some remote way) land soon, metalists are very rare.

I did allow the one PC since the concept wasn't bad and not overpowering. Before that, I think the only mental attacks were EGO attacks.

 

Though playing a mentalist in Zornwil's game has softened my view on them. (I got scarred in a few games by mentalists. Mainly one particular GM/player.)

[zornwil]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

In my game, which I'm working to bring into PBEM(or some remote way) land soon, metalists are very rare.

I did allow the one PC since the concept wasn't bad and not overpowering. Before that, I think the only mental attacks were EGO attacks.

 

Though playing a mentalist in Zornwil's game has softened my view on them. (I got scarred in a few games by mentalists. Mainly one particular GM/player.)

Who's got mental powers??

[lemming]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

Who's got mental powers??

Professor N. Just hunted down his character sheet. I think we modified it just before the game. Jerry had helped him make the character and I did ask Jerry if he saw this quote from the guidelines:

Mental powers:

For some reason I have a problem with mental characters. Perhaps with my running a mentalist in Wilson's current game is helping, but I'm not sure... You may be subconsciously persecuted. If you run a character like Allen, you'll be consciously persecuted.

[zornwil]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

Professor N. Just hunted down his character sheet. I think we modified it just before the game. Jerry had helped him make the character and I did ask Jerry if he saw this quote from the guidelines:

I forgot about Prof N.

[yamamura]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

When I design a mentalist for a PC and have EGO blast, I tend to self regulate. I figure out what is the average damage minus defense of a campaign and then buy enough dice of EGO Blast to cause the same amount of damage. At this point I turn to buying MD but only enough that I can lessen the damage I would take from another mentalist. So I basically try to play a balance game.

[OddHat]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

I tend to restrict PC mentalists except in all-psionics games. I also enforce the full breakout rules, use Mental Transforms for long-term mind control, and treat Magic and Psionics as one class of powers. It's a base assumption in my game that most Criminal organizations tend to end up under the control of one cabal of mentalists / magicians or another, and that most governments both recruit and are heavily influenced by mages and mentalists. In CU terms, organizations like PSI, the Circle of the Scarlet Moon and Demon control much of the world, and are countered by organizations like The Council, The Circle, church sponsored mystics and supers, and the Department Thirteen / MIB / Space Defense Initiative type departments within all major governments. Ordinary people are peripherally aware of this in the same way that people in America are peripherally aware that the show is being run by corporate interests and other pressure groups; it makes some people angry and paranoid, but most try not to think about it. I do not restrict the purchase of Mental Defense by players, and I do look over their defenses when thinking of villains that might be a challenge to them.

However, I go for sci-fi or fantasy with Supers rather than a more traditional four-color feel; other approaches are groovy as well.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

Another possibility is to allow non-mentalists (or perhaps even everyone, as an "everyman Power") to have Mental Defense - Costs END. This way, with some conscious effort (which tires you out eventually), you can use your willpower to resist mental powers to some extent. If a mentallist takes a target by surprise, they won't have their MD up, but if a team of trained agents knows they're about to face a mentallist, they "turn on" their willpower and mental resistance in preparation.

[gojira]

Re: Mentalist Conundrum

 

What's the difference between NND powers and mental ones, in terms of balance? Why are you concerned about mentalists but not NND powers?

 

I mean, it seems like it's up to the GM to balance all this stuff, and fudging up any one area is going to give a munchkin-prone player something to exploit. Is it just that many GMs assume that mental powers are already balanced with EB and HA and just don't consider them?