Velocity Discrepancies

[Guest Black Lotus]

Now, before I get going, I must mention that I have had problems with the SPD/ Movement/ Velocity/ Relative Velocity "Multiverse" before, but I have come to terms with those specific discrepancies, and decided to use the system as-is, as it appears in HERO 5ER.

 

However, I have several problems which I could resolve all on my own, but for which I would greatly appreciate HEROphile feedback.

 

1.) VEHICLES

 

Let's say we have two automobiles -- say, a Corvette and an Eclipse, just to give an example. The Corvette and the Eclipse have approximately the same top speeds. However, the Corvette is more maneuverable. This means the Corevette needs 40" Running, SPD 5, for a total of 200"/ Turn, while the Eclipse needs 50" Running, SPD 4, for a total of 200"/ Turn.

 

The difficulty comes in collisions. According to the official rules, the Corvette, moving at top speed, would do LESS Move-Through damage than the Eclipse moving at top speed, since the Eclipse goes 50" per Phase, while the Corvette only goes 40" per Phase.

 

This can be solved by using the "Velocity Factor" optional rules in 5ER, which calculate velocity based upon inches moved per TURN, not per Phase.

 

HOWEVER! On to point 2.

 

2.) CHARACTER MOVE-THROUGHS

 

Characters do a lot more damage with a Move-Through using the official rules than when using the optional "Velocity Factor" rules. To encourage characters to use interesting velocity-based maneuvers to increase damage, I want to use the original system, not the "Velocity Factor" optional system.

 

3.) CONUNDRUM

 

The obvious solution is to use the original Velocity rules for characters, while using the optional "Velocity Factor" rules for vehicles. However, this creates inconsistencies in the game system, as you may imagine: a sword doing more damage than a car crashing into you at 50 mph, etcetera.

 

So, should I:

 

a.) Use the original rules for both characters and vehicles.

 

b.) Use the optional rules for both characters and vehicles.

 

c.) Use the original rules for characters, and the optional rules for vehicles, and accept the inconsistencies.

 

d.) Create some sort of hybrid mix between the two systems.

 

*************

 

Thank you for taking the time to read my post; I look forward to your input!

[Warp9]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

First of all, use the Velocity Factor Rules.

 

Second, alter the price of combat velocity. As you have noticed, putting velocity onto exponential terms, while making characters buy combat velocity at a linear rate results in very low damage. It would be like forcing characters to buy STR at 100 KG per 10 character points, in order to get to 100,000 KG lift (12d6), you'd have to spend 10,000 points.

 

The solution is easy, since the velocity damage in the optional rules is on an exponential/logarithmic scale, characters should buy their flight on an exponential scale (no more of the 1" per 2 points stuff)

 

Here is what I might suggest for the new velocity costs:

 

Note: This chart assumes that you get X2 Combat Velocity per 10 points, which will allow you to keep the X2 Non-Combat Velocity per 5 points.

 

Points		Hex/Seg	       Hex/Turn	        MPH		VF
10		2"		24"		9		1
20		4"		48"		18		3
30		8"		96"		36		5	
40		16"		192"		72		7
50		32"		384"		144		9
60		64"		768"		288		11
70		128"		1536"		576		13
80		256"		3072"		1152		15
90		512"		6144"		2304		17
100		1024"		12288"		4608		19

 

All this is totally non-standard and just my opinion (it is only how I'd do things). But it should solve the problems that you mentioned.

 

Characters will be able to again get descent damage for their move throughs and move-bys.

 

It will also allow characters to buy really fast "in-combat" velocity if it fits with their character concept, something that the standard rules do not allow.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

When it comes to Running, I believe there needs to be a clear point value for each inch of movement -- especially since I run Heroic campaigns, in which Normal Characteristic maxima is 10" of Running. Characters should be able to buy 1", 2", 3", 4", 5", 6", 7", 8", or 10" of running... this exponential system really only supports speeds of 2", 4", and 8".

 

So if John is faster than Sam, he's at LEAST twice as fast. Realistically speaking, characters should be able to move only slightly faster or slower than one another. If everyone moves either twice, four times, one-quarter, or half as fast as everyone else... not very realistic.

 

I know you support exponential systems, but I think Movement should definitely be bought in a linear fashion. There have to be moderate levels in between to create a wider range of movement speeds.

[Warp9]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

When it comes to Running, I believe there needs to be a clear point value for each inch of movement -- especially since I run Heroic campaigns, in which Normal Characteristic maxima is 10" of Running. Characters should be able to buy 1", 2", 3", 4", 5", 6", 7", 8", or 10" of running... this exponential system really only supports speeds of 2", 4", and 8".

 

So if John is faster than Sam, he's at LEAST twice as fast. Realistically speaking, characters should be able to move only slightly faster or slower than one another. If everyone moves either twice, four times, one-quarter, or half as fast as everyone else... not very realistic.

 

I know you support exponential systems, but I think Movement should definitely be bought in a linear fashion. There have to be moderate levels in between to create a wider range of movement speeds.

The formula is based on 12" X 2^(Points/10) per Turn.

 

You can have fractional Exponets (like 2 to the power of 1.2), although I admit that you probably would not want to figure them during game time. (If you need exact inbetween numbers you'd probably want a table to look off of)

 

So 10 points = 12" X 2^(10/10) = 12" X 2^(1) = 24" per turn. (or 2 per segment)

 

15 points = 12" X 2^(15/10) = 12" X 2^(1.5) = 32" per turn (or about 3" per segment)

 

And by the method I'm suggesting, a normal person starts out with 10 points in running (9mph), just like in all the other stats, and the human max is 20 points or 18 mph (an olympic sprinter could exceed that amount be a little bit).

[Warp9]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

And I'll add to my above statement that you could (for simplicity) assume a linear run between the full interger exponent values. Since there is a gap of 24" per turn between 10 points (24") and 20 points (48") we could assume a linear increase of 2.4" for each point. This solution would give slightly inaccurate results, but not lead to what I'd consider "major inaccuracies."

 

For example:

 

10 points of running = 24" per Turn

11 points of running = 26.4" per Turn

12 points of running = 28.8" per Turn

13 points of running = 31.2" per Turn

14 points of running = 33.6" per Turn

15 points of running = 36" per Turn

 

20 point of running = 48" per Turn

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Strangely for all that I am used to exponential movement from the old MAyfair DC Heroes game I cannot see it working effectively in HERO's speed charted environment. The only way I can see it working would be to "delete" the speed chart by making everyone a default 4 or 6 Speed.

 

Of course I do like that with your system I can finally have 500kph of *combat movement* and outdistance f-14s if I want too.

 

Hawksmoor

[Warp9]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Strangely for all that I am used to exponential movement from the old MAyfair DC Heroes game I cannot see it working effectively in HERO's speed charted environment. The only way I can see it working would be to "delete" the speed chart by making everyone a default 4 or 6 Speed.

 

Of course I do like that with your system I can finally have 500kph of *combat movement* and outdistance f-14s if I want too.

 

Hawksmoor

I really like the SPD chart, and I don't think we'd need to chuck it.

 

Lets say we have a character with a 5 SPD who can move 24" per turn.

 

In most cases, I'd just round to the nearest value. 24"/5 is about 5" per phase.

 

In a situation where accuracy was very important, he'd have a 4.8" per phase.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

The problem with exponential running in combat systems is, to my mind, a practical one, at least if you use models. Our combats already take up most of the living room floor. Being able to run at 100+ inches in combat is going to make miniature modelling impossible.

 

OTOH I like the idea of exponential movement. Maybe my problem is with the dichotomy of having both: linear in combat and exponential non-combat.

 

You could re-jig the VF chart for linear movement, or better yet just total your movement for a phase and divide by 5 to obtain a VF. Doesn't matter what your speed is use total movement/5, then apportion in relation to what part of your top speed you are using. That way both the Corvette and the Eclipse, running at top speed, do +40d6 on a movethrough.

 

That, of course, is the other problem, the numbers can get silly, but at least you have a system that means your speed 12x10" run and your speed 2x20" run characters are doing appropriate damage (120/5=+24d6, and 40/5=+8d6 damage respectively).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

1.) VEHICLES

 

Let's say we have two automobiles -- say, a Corvette and an Eclipse, just to give an example. The Corvette and the Eclipse have approximately the same top speeds. However, the Corvette is more maneuverable. This means the Corevette needs 40" Running, SPD 5, for a total of 200"/ Turn, while the Eclipse needs 50" Running, SPD 4, for a total of 200"/ Turn.

 

The difficulty comes in collisions. According to the official rules, the Corvette, moving at top speed, would do LESS Move-Through damage than the Eclipse moving at top speed, since the Eclipse goes 50" per Phase, while the Corvette only goes 40" per Phase.

 

This can be solved by using the "Velocity Factor" optional rules in 5ER, which calculate velocity based upon inches moved per TURN, not per Phase.

 

HOWEVER! On to point 2.

 

2.) CHARACTER MOVE-THROUGHS

 

Characters do a lot more damage with a Move-Through using the official rules than when using the optional "Velocity Factor" rules. To encourage characters to use interesting velocity-based maneuvers to increase damage, I want to use the original system, not the "Velocity Factor" optional system.

 

3.) CONUNDRUM

 

The obvious solution is to use the original Velocity rules for characters, while using the optional "Velocity Factor" rules for vehicles. However, this creates inconsistencies in the game system, as you may imagine: a sword doing more damage than a car crashing into you at 50 mph, etcetera.

 

How's this for an alternative:

 

The Eclipse is heavier?

 

You could also put a Limitation on the Eclipse's Ground Movement... Say a -1/4 that says that Move Through damge is figured at d6/5" instead of 3" (Move By would be the same d6/5", but still less damage due to 1/2 STR). In your example, this would make the Corvette to a "little" more damage, but then again... the Eclipse might have more STR... dunno.

 

Theoretically, the whole system is wacked, because you also add in the STR of the vehicle. Sometimes it's more important than velocity, othertimes is not important at all.... no matter what, it's always calculated for damage in every case. Can't win them all.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

How's this for an alternative:

 

The Eclipse is heavier?

 

You could also put a Limitation on the Eclipse's Ground Movement... Say a -1/4 that says that Move Through damge is figured at d6/5" instead of 3" (Move By would be the same d6/5", but still less damage due to 1/2 STR). In your example, this would make the Corvette to a "little" more damage, but then again... the Eclipse might have more STR... dunno.

 

Theoretically, the whole system is wacked, because you also add in the STR of the vehicle. Sometimes it's more important than velocity, othertimes is not important at all.... no matter what, it's always calculated for damage in every case. Can't win them all.

 

 

...so the Eclipse would cause more damage, as per the original question, but probably because a higher weight implies a higher STR. Cool.

 

In fact what we should be working on is momentum. Strength generally wouldn't have that much effect, IMO. That quarterback hurts because he is big. He may be big because he is strong, and he may be fast in a sprint because he is strong but the two determining factors should be velocity and mass. For most vehicles STR and mass are effectively synonymous as (generally) a vehicle only has enough strength to carry itself and its normal load. Vehicles with disproportionally high STR values shouldn't be doing more damage, I wouldn't have thought.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

How's this for an alternative:

 

The Eclipse is heavier?

 

You could also put a Limitation on the Eclipse's Ground Movement... Say a -1/4 that says that Move Through damge is figured at d6/5" instead of 3" (Move By would be the same d6/5", but still less damage due to 1/2 STR). In your example, this would make the Corvette to a "little" more damage, but then again... the Eclipse might have more STR... dunno.

 

Theoretically, the whole system is wacked, because you also add in the STR of the vehicle. Sometimes it's more important than velocity, othertimes is not important at all.... no matter what, it's always calculated for damage in every case. Can't win them all.

 

Nah, the "heavier, does more damage" part doesn't fly. You can have two cars (or, for example, humans) that weigh the same, have the same top speed, and have the same STR, but because one car has a higher SPD, it does less damage. Doing less damage because of a HIGHER SPD is silly. The problem, of course, is that the idea of velocity-based damage and SPD x Movement Rate are not compatible systems.

 

Now, the STR part I can explain as how hard the chassis is, etcetera.

 

Actually, I think I'll used "Velocity Factor" for everything (i.e., if you hit someone going at 15", you do damage based on how many inches you would move per turn [i.e., 15" x SPD, consult the VF chart]). I'll just increase the damage for characters slightly, but only against other characters, not vehicles. Simple to do, stays fairly realistic... cool.

 

But thanks much for the advice, Dust Raven, I appreciate it.

[Warp9]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Nah, the "heavier, does more damage" part doesn't fly. You can have two cars (or, for example, humans) that weigh the same, have the same top speed, and have the same STR, but because one car has a higher SPD, it does less damage. Doing less damage because of a HIGHER SPD is silly. The problem, of course, is that the idea of velocity-based damage and SPD x Movement Rate are not compatible systems.

I'm not sure that I'm following you here. You start off with the statement that "heavier, does more damage part doesn't fly" and then essentially make an agrument against doing damage based on inches per phase.

 

I agree that having a standardized velocity damage (inches per turn or inches per segment) makes more sense; but to me the "heavier does more damage" (along with standardized velocity) is the way to go.

 

I'd use VF, and then substitute vehicle mass in place of STR for the move through.

 

100 kg vehicle = 10 STR

Full sized car (3.2 tons) = 35 STR

 

Of course that is pretty close to what Sean Waters indicated with the statement: "For most vehicles STR and mass are effectively synonymous as (generally) a vehicle only has enough strength to carry itself and its normal load." In most cases you'll get the exact same result by swapping out STR for Mass.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Doing less damage because of a HIGHER SPD is silly. The problem' date=' of course, is that the idea of velocity-based damage and SPD x Movement Rate are not compatible systems.[/quote']

 

Well, it's not really doing less damage because it has a higher SPD, its doing less damage because it has a less inches of movement. The question about cars is whay should they have different SPDs? What advantage does it confer? I'd say that all cars should have the same SPD and that simply for the purpose of calculating velocity.

 

In the case of superheroes - it remains a problem.

 

 

Doc

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

I've had a problem with this for some time. Though I never really noticed it until I read TUV. One mitigating factor is that a 6 SPD/10" can do six move-thru's in a turn, the 5 SPD/12" can only do five, and the 4 SPD/15" can only do four. Even though they're all moving at the same real velocity (60"/turn), and the 4 SPD guy is doing more damage with each one, the 6 SPD guy is doing more total damage, since he can add his STR all six times. But still...

 

One other solution that doesn't rely on making combat movement exponential is to simply base additional Move-thru/Move-by damage on inches per turn rather than inches per phase. Thus a SPD 6, 10" running guy with 10 STR could do 2d6 + (60/X) d6 when moving 10" in a phase with a move-thru. The question then becomes, what is the correct value for X? If you want to keep the damage the same for the normal 2 SPD character, then X would be 6 (doubling the usual 3 for move-thrus), which results in a 12d6 movethru which seems way too high to me. Off hand, I'd suggest 12 (letting 4 SPD remain unchanged), which results in a 7d6 Move-thru for the above character.

 

It's still not a perfect solution, I know, but it can work.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

I'm not sure that I'm following you here. You start off with the statement that "heavier' date=' does more damage part doesn't fly"[/i'] and then essentially make an agrument against doing damage based on inches per phase.

 

The point is, even when comparing vehicles with identical mass, "/Turn and STR, a more maneuverable one, with more SPD but less "/Phase, and a less maneuverable one, with less SPD but more "/Phase, even though they move the same amount of inches/Turn, the slower one does more damage -- even if the masses and STR are equal.

 

Well, it's not really doing less damage because it has a higher SPD, its doing less damage because it has a less inches of movement. The question about cars is whay should they have different SPDs? What advantage does it confer? I'd say that all cars should have the same SPD and that simply for the purpose of calculating velocity.

 

In the case of superheroes - it remains a problem.

 

Well, I also run Sci-Fi campaigns, and some smaller ships can do a helluva lot more turning and juking than larger ships. That means more SPD for smaller ones, less SPD for larger ones. If they all had the same SPD, larger ships could not only move as fast or faster than smaller ones, they could turn as fast, as well, making the power of ships dependant only on size. I'm a fan of the "Small Fighters Kick Ass Of Bulky Transport Ships" theory found in the Wing Commander series and mentioned in GURPS.

 

The discrepancy is less obvious when comparing a dreadnaught ship with a fighter ship, of course, so it's not as much of a problem.

 

As for CHARACTERS -- I'm not concerned. I basically see characters as starting their movement and then ending it all on the same Phase, and then they start again next Phase (that's because Steve said... don't worry about tracking velocity between Phases). But I'll still use VF for characters. I'll just increase the damage done with the VF system slightly for character vs. character combat.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Nah' date=' the "heavier, does more damage" part doesn't fly. You can have two cars (or, for example, humans) that weigh the same, have the same top speed, and have the same STR, but because one car has a higher SPD, it does less damage. Doing less damage because of a HIGHER SPD is silly. The problem, of course, is that the idea of velocity-based damage and SPD x Movement Rate are not compatible systems.[/quote']

 

Well, you can have two vehicles that have the same mass and velocity, but build with different SPD and Movement.... but another way to look at is, should they? They are being build differently, perhaps their SFX should be treated differently. If for no other reason than to preserve suspension of disbelief.

 

Phil makes an excellent point about the number of Move Throughs a higher SPD vehicle can perform. Granted, it's a balance issue. When you run a guy over using the slow SPD high Movement vehicle, you'll tend to slow the car down more, while the higher SPD vehicle will keep on going, or be able to recover from the impact quicker.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Well' date=' you [i']can[/i] have two vehicles that have the same mass and velocity, but build with different SPD and Movement.... but another way to look at is, should they? They are being build differently, perhaps their SFX should be treated differently. If for no other reason than to preserve suspension of disbelief.

 

Except dice of damage are not an SFX issue; they're mechanics.

 

Phil makes an excellent point about the number of Move Throughs a higher SPD vehicle can perform. Granted, it's a balance issue. When you run a guy over using the slow SPD high Movement vehicle, you'll tend to slow the car down more, while the higher SPD vehicle will keep on going, or be able to recover from the impact quicker.

 

Which is the opposite of reality. Lower SPD vehicles tend to be heavier and would be slowed less by an impact than higher SPD vehicles.

 

This whole discussion confirms what I've been saying all along; SPD is a poor choice for representing vehicular movement.

[Fox1]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

This whole discussion confirms what I've been saying all along; SPD is a poor choice for representing vehicular movement.

 

Agreed.

 

This is why it didn't used to work that way. I'd love to know what drove the decision to change, likely some sort of misplaced simplification urge.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Except dice of damage are not an SFX issue; they're mechanics.

Duh.

 

What I'm suggesting is a SFX to explain the mechanics. It's simple really.

 

 

 

Which is the opposite of reality. Lower SPD vehicles tend to be heavier and would be slowed less by an impact than higher SPD vehicles.

"tend to be"

 

That seems to imply exceptions.

 

This whole discussion confirms what I've been saying all along; SPD is a poor choice for representing vehicular movement.

I couldn't disagree more. And I have yet to see a better alternative, or even an equal one.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Well' date=' you [i']can[/i] have two vehicles that have the same mass and velocity, but build with different SPD and Movement.... but another way to look at is, should they? They are being build differently, perhaps their SFX should be treated differently. If for no other reason than to preserve suspension of disbelief.

 

I believe they should. You must keep in mind: I'm something of a simulatiuonist. I know it may cause me to seem asinine, but I like to... well, I like to have very detailed vehicle statistics im my sci-fi campaigns, because players have the option of purchasing upgrades to their engines, chassis, weapons, etcetera. As in the video games where players can do deep customization on their race cars. One engine may have the same thrust power as it did before, but the players add more maneuvering thrusters, increasing SPD and adjusting the Movement/ Phase accordingly. This allows for precise tactical control of one's spacecraft on an adventurer's budget.

 

Phil makes an excellent point about the number of Move Throughs a higher SPD vehicle can perform. Granted' date=' it's a balance issue. When you run a guy over using the slow SPD high Movement vehicle, you'll tend to slow the car down more, while the higher SPD vehicle will keep on going, or be able to recover from the impact quicker.[/quote']

 

I understand that, but that doesn't really change the fact that it defies the laws of both physics and common sense. Let's look at it this way: a farm tractor weighing 2,000 lbs, and a compact car weighing 2,000 lbs. The tractor has a SPD of only -1-, while the compact has a SPD of 5. The tractor STILL has more inches/ phase of movement than the compact car, so it still does more damage than the car on a Move Through, even though its inches/ Phase are far lower.

 

Now, I know SFX can be used to explain it away. But using Velocity Factor optional rules solves the problem completely without having to rationalize the discrepancies. And as I said, it's easy to slightly increase the damage done by VF in character vs. character combat; all I have to do is add 1 Damage Class to the listed total for the given VF.

 

Simple and believable.

 

I know what you're saying, Dust Raven, and I understand it, and there's nothing wrong with it. But, from a Simulationist point of view, I think it's better to do it the way I plan on doing it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

What I'm suggesting is a SFX to explain the mechanics. It's simple really.

 

The mechanics are broken. And you're looking for an SFX to explain them?

 

"tend to be"

 

That seems to imply exceptions.

 

I left myself some wiggle room. I haven't seen any exceptions, but as soon as I say "All vehicles with lower SPD are heavier than vehicles with higher SPD" someone will come up with one.

 

I couldn't disagree more. And I have yet to see a better alternative, or even an equal one.

 

Segmented movement. Simple: every 1" per segment does 1d6 damage.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Segmented movement. Simple: every 1" per segment does 1d6 damage.

 

Chris, that much damage would be way out of proportion to reality, I think. Let's say I have Running 7"... would that be 7d6 extra damage?

 

By that theory, I could bump into my girlfriend and send her flying across the living room. Not to mention the cat....

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Chris, that much damage would be way out of proportion to reality, I think. Let's say I have Running 7"... would that be 7d6 extra damage?

 

Only if you've got 7" per segment of Running which incidentally translates to around 30 mph; if you run into her at 30 mph then someone's going to be hurting.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Only if you've got 7" per segment of Running which incidentally translates to around 30 mph; if you run into her at 30 mph then someone's going to be hurting.

 

Oh. I see what you are saying. You move all 12 segments of the Turn?

 

I don't think you mentioned that part.

 

But um, 30 mph is still way too slow for 7d6 damage... that's why the Velocity Factor system was invented.

 

FYI, Humans in real life top out at approximately 26 mph, which can be achieved by the world's fastest sprinters.

 

If you use NCM, with SPD 4, Running 10, humans get to top out at about 30 mph -- not bad for realism there.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Oh. I see what you are saying. You move all 12 segments of the Turn?

 

I don't think you mentioned that part.

 

That is what segmented movement is. I did mention that; in fact you quoted it.

 

But umSegmented movement. Simple: every 1" per segment does 1d6 damage., 30 mph is still way too slow for 7d6 damage... that's why the Velocity Factor system was invented.

 

Officially, it's 1d6 per 1" per segment (the same as falling damage); Velocity Factor is optional (unless that's changed in 5ER, and it's yet another level of complexity -- a chart lookup). If you're thinking of a car hitting a person, it's a Move Through; the car still gets its STR damage, and a 1600kg car (30 STR, about the size of my Honda Accord) will do an additional 6d6. That 30 mph just did 13d6.... figure about 6" of Knockback, as well.

 

Edit: Wait a minute, you're saying that 30 mph should do less than 7d6 damage? I think we're thinking of different meanings of 7d6. That's 7 DC, enough normal damage to injure a normal human but, on average, not anywhere nearly enough to kill. I think 7d6 is perfectly fine for 30 mph.