Velocity Discrepancies

[Dust Raven]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

The mechanics are broken. And you're looking for an SFX to explain them?

Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean the mechanics are broken.

 

 

 

I left myself some wiggle room. I haven't seen any exceptions, but as soon as I say "All vehicles with lower SPD are heavier than vehicles with higher SPD" someone will come up with one.

Ah...

 

 

 

Segmented movement. Simple: every 1" per segment does 1d6 damage.

 

Why stop there? Abolish the SPD chart entirely! Go to a turn based movement system where everybody gets one action per round. Everyone has the same actions, so everyone can have the same movement and end up with the same r/l stats. Wouldn't that be nice?

 

Not.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Just because you don't like them, doesn't mean the mechanics are broken.

 

We're talking about two vehicles, all other things being equal one has a higher SPD than the other. Because of this, it does less damage when running into something. How is this not broken?

 

Why stop there? Abolish the SPD chart entirely! Go to a turn based movement system where everybody gets one action per round. Everyone has the same actions, so everyone can have the same movement and end up with the same r/l stats. Wouldn't that be nice?

 

The sarcasm is entirely unnecessary.

[Fox1]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

The sarcasm is entirely unnecessary.

 

I'd agree about the sarcasm, however there was more to Dust Raven's point than that.

 

Simply put, the effect you describe with vehicles can also apply to characters. Assuming two characters have equal top running speeds- the faster reacting character ends up doing less damage.

 

That said, I don't consider that point especally important to the question of how vehicles are to be handled in the common case.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

We're talking about two vehicles, all other things being equal one has a higher SPD than the other. Because of this, it does less damage when running into something. How is this not broken?

 

The sarcasm is entirely unnecessary.

 

It IS broken, in that sense, but the Velocity Factor optional rules fix it: SPD x [Movement Rate in Inches at Time of Impact] = virtual Inches/ Turn, thus you consult the Velocity Factor chart and get your damage bonus. It's simple, and it's far more realistic than the original rules.

 

5ER borrows the "Velocity Factor" rules from a HEROphile physicist. I'm sure they asked for his permission to use them. He had a WHOLE different movement system though, where you had to rehaul half the game, but they kept the basic chart and the new falling rules.

[Fox1]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

It IS broken' date=' in that sense, but the Velocity Factor optional rules fix it: SPD x [Movement Rate in Inches at Time of Impact'] = virtual Inches/ Turn, thus you consult the Velocity Factor chart and get your damage bonus. It's simple, and it's far more realistic than the original rules.

 

Two problems with that chart:

 

1. To many, chart lookups in the middle of a game are not simple, rather they are a real bore.

 

2. The effects on the game play of the resulting damage compression of that chart may well be undesired.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Two problems with that chart:

 

1. To many, chart lookups in the middle of a game are not simple, rather they are a real bore.

 

2. The effects on the game play of the resulting damage compression of that chart may well be undesired.

 

Well, I've already memorized the chart, so I should be good there. It's easy because it goes in numbered, patterned, repetitive steps.

 

Second, I've playtested this with old painted minis, a largish hex game mat, and a wipeable marker. It works very smoothly.

 

Finally, the damage seems very reasonable when you consider how much damage getting stabbed with a knife does. Getting hit by a Corvette going 30 mph by the original rules is like getting stabbed by 10 knives... actually, more like 15, I think. People easily survive most 30 mph collisions as long as their head doesn't get hit.

 

Also, I add one Damage Class to the listed total for Character vs. Character combat. And that seems to work fine.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

We're talking about two vehicles, all other things being equal one has a higher SPD than the other. Because of this, it does less damage when running into something. How is this not broken?

 

 

 

 

Actually, we're talking about two vehicles, one has a higher SPD but lower movement than the other. Whether or not anything else is equal is irrelavant.

 

As such, it need not be equal.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Seems like Black Lotus has found a solution that works for him.

 

I'm not a fan of the velocity factor table thingy myself. Too cumbersome. Besides, vehicles moving "realistically" is about as important to me as characters moving "realistically. I prefer cinematic over realistic. I can have realistic when I watch NASCAR.

[Fox1]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Getting hit by a Corvette going 30 mph by the original rules is like getting stabbed by 10 knives... actually' date=' more like 15, I think.[/quote']

 

 

Using the VF chart, the damage is +5d6 for up to 36 mph.

 

Using the old segmented movement, it's only an extra 1 1/2d6.

 

Adding in the mass of the car (4d6) and you get 9d6 vs 10 1/2d6.

 

Frankly, your example is rather weak.

 

Add in the fact that HERO is off in how its various damage result compares to real life is an admitted feature of the game system- and you don't have much to stand on here.

 

Before doing an example claiming a vast difference, it pays to check to see if it actually works.

[Grail Quest]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

To encourage characters to use interesting velocity-based maneuvers to increase damage, I want to use the original system, not the "Velocity Factor" optional system.

 

I think the issue is right here. For the sake of improving the gameplay experience, you are clearly willing to handwave away whichever system is "more correct". As the gaming experience has a higher priority for you, simply use different rules and get on with the game.

 

As for FX, just suspend disbelief. We do it all the time in action flicks anyway, and it doesn't really take away our enjoyment.

 

What you really have to do is manage players. What will someone driving a vehicle say when you use different rules for them and for the hero outside a vehicle?

[Warp9]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Two problems with that chart:

 

1. To many, chart lookups in the middle of a game are not simple, rather they are a real bore.

 

2. The effects on the game play of the resulting damage compression of that chart may well be undesired.

 

It seems to me that both those arguments could be used in relation to the exponential STR chart.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

I didn't read the whole thread, but it seems to me that there is a simple hybrid. There are two issues presented in the original post:

1. Total (Movement*Speed) velocity magnitude isn't the value used to determine damage.
   
2. Velocity Factor decreases damage too much

Why not just calculate damage without Velocity Factor, but instead use Move*Speed/2 in place of the usual "Velocity"? You could use a divisor other than 2 if you want, but I usually try to keep things the same for characters around the human norm (Speed 2). Thus the number of dice for a Move Through would be:

(Str + [Move*Speed/2]/3) d6 = (Str + Move*Speed/6) d6

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

I didn't read the whole thread, but it seems to me that there is a simple hybrid. There are two issues presented in the original post:

1. Total (Movement*Speed) velocity magnitude isn't the value used to determine damage.
   
2. Velocity Factor decreases damage too much

 

To address item #1, when using the Velocity Factor optional rules, that IS the value used to determine damage. This is because in a partiular segment, if you are going 10", then you'd travel 50" if you kept going that SPD in each of your Phases. There's logic behind it, trust me, but I find it highly difficult to explain.

 

And for #2, the optional VF damage is more realistic than the original rules, in terms of physics. For example, a Corvette going 30 mph does more damage than a Howitzer, according to the original velocity rules. I do recognize that Character vs. Character combat needs a bit of a boost to make Move Throughs more attractive using VF in a Heroic camapign, which is why I add a DC of damage to VF calculations for that purpose -- Character vs. Character.

 

Why not just calculate damage without Velocity Factor, but instead use Move*Speed/2 in place of the usual "Velocity"? You could use a divisor other than 2 if you want, but I usually try to keep things the same for characters around the human norm (Speed 2). Thus the number of dice for a Move Through would be:

(Str + [Move*Speed/2]/3) d6 = (Str + Move*Speed/6) d6

 

Because I don't like the fact that between two vehicles with an identical rate of Inches/ Turn, identical Mass and STR, but different SPDs, the vehicle with the lower SPD will do more damage. Read back a few more posts for more details.

 

EDIT: And I decided on using the VF rules for my game, with only ONE change: in Character vs. Character combat, add 1 DC to the listed value on the VF chart.

[zornwil]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Seems like Black Lotus has found a solution that works for him.

 

I'm not a fan of the velocity factor table thingy myself. Too cumbersome. Besides, vehicles moving "realistically" is about as important to me as characters moving "realistically. I prefer cinematic over realistic. I can have realistic when I watch NASCAR.

That's mostly my approach, but there are instances that make more sense to be realistic or semi-realistic about. For example I want to do a sort of Road Warrior/Blade Runner/cyber-punk/Judge Dredd campaign, which I once did as a homegrown system called Roadworld, and in that vehicles and vehicle "realism" are important.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

That's mostly my approach' date=' but there are instances that make more sense to be realistic or semi-realistic about. For example I want to do a sort of Road Warrior/Blade Runner/cyber-punk/Judge Dredd campaign, which I once did as a homegrown system called Roadworld, and in that vehicles and vehicle "realism" are important.[/quote']

 

Yes, I always use Newtonian movement (or as close as I can get to it) with vehicles in my sci-fi campaigns. I find doing it the "move, stop, move, stop" way is easier, but taking the time to add a nice gloss of realism is more rewarding, in terms of the way the players see space combat, and also in terms of tactical possibilities.

[Fox1]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

It seems to me that both those arguments could be used in relation to the exponential STR chart.

 

I very rarely need to look at the STR chart, lift seldom comes into play.

 

And yes, it's x2 progession is too fast for me. So I changed it.

 

So problem #1 is almost un-encountered. And problem #2 is dealt with. For velocity issues, even my reduced EXP progression is too fast- thus I'll stick with the linear method that's HERO's default.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

To address item #1' date=' when using the Velocity Factor optional rules, that IS the value used to determine damage. This is because in a partiular segment, if you are going 10", then you'd travel 50" if you kept going that SPD in each of your Phases. There's logic behind it, trust me, but I find it highly difficult to explain.[/quote']

Yes. I should have said, "1. [Without Velocity Factor,] total (Movement*Speed) velocity magnitude isn't the value used to determine damage."

 

And for #2, the optional VF damage is more realistic than the original rules, in terms of physics. For example, a Corvette going 30 mph does more damage than a Howitzer, according to the original velocity rules. I do recognize that Character vs. Character combat needs a bit of a boost to make Move Throughs more attractive using VF in a Heroic camapign, which is why I add a DC of damage to VF calculations for that purpose -- Character vs. Character.

Realistic? Sure. But typically the more realistic you get in a game system, the more complicated the rules, the more calculations or look-ups required, the more exceptions you have to make to keep things interesting, etc. If you are okay with that, cool.

 

Because I don't like the fact that between two vehicles with an identical rate of Inches/ Turn, identical Mass and STR, but different SPDs, the vehicle with the lower SPD will do more damage. Read back a few more posts for more details.

That confuses me. My suggestion used Move*Speed, which is equal to hexes of movement per Turn. That means two vehicles with identical movement per Turn, mass, and Str would do exactly the same damage.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Realistic? Sure. But typically the more realistic you get in a game system' date=' the more complicated the rules, the more calculations or look-ups required, the more exceptions you have to make to keep things interesting, etc. If you are okay with that, cool.[/quote']

 

I try to strike a balance with realism:complexity, though. At this point, the only extra complications in my game concerning velocity are: use of the VF rules for determining damage, adding 1 DC to damage from Move Throughs and adding 1/2 DC to damage from Move Bys in Character vs. Character. Not too hard to keep track of.

 

That confuses me. My suggestion used Move*Speed' date=' which is equal to hexes of movement per Turn. That means two vehicles with identical movement per Turn, mass, and Str would do exactly the same damage.[/quote']

 

Yes, your suggestion mirrors what VF does, but still causes more damage than VF. I understand.

[Vorsch]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Another triumph of the speed chart

 

Two people can hit each other at the same speed, and cause different damage.

 

and i find it amusing that people actually support this as fair

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Another triumph of the speed chart

 

Two people can hit each other at the same speed, and cause different damage.

 

and i find it amusing that people actually support this as fair

 

When two people meet traveling identical velocities in Inches/ Turn, the extra Damage Classes from velocity are added together, and they each get the same bonus if they are both attacking... excepting special rules for who is doing which maneuver, of course.

[Vorsch]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

i think your using the opional rules for velocity factor.

 

as written and used this is not so

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

Another triumph of the speed chart

 

Two people can hit each other at the same speed, and cause different damage.

 

and i find it amusing that people actually support this as fair

 

Why is this such a big deal?

Jousting between knights on horseback had as much 'riding' on the timing of the knights as it did their skill. Anyway, where is it written that fights have to be fair? I thought the point was to make them dramatic. The illusion of fairness is sometimes used as aid to the drama but in no way is any combat between a group of npc's * and player characters ever really fair.

 

*whose number and composition is always ultimately determined by a GM.

 

HM

[prestidigitator]

Re: Velocity Discrepancies

 

i think your using the opional rules for velocity factor.

 

as written and used this is not so

Actually this is addressed in the FAQ (and makes some sense); it is independent of whether or not you use Velocity Factor (at least if you make a trival extension). If two characters move toward each other and do Move Throughs, Move Bys, etc., you use their combined velocities for both attacks. You could then use the usual method of calculating damage based on velocity or use Velocity Factor based on the combined velocity. Thus the velocity component of the damage is symmetic in the rare case of two characters hitting each other, "simultaneously."

 

EDIT: Actually it may have been answered on the official Rules Questions board rather than the FAQ. I can't remember.