your thoughts on size

[Onyxclaw]

ok, so I'm building a large draconic character as a Major NPC in an upcoming game, in dragon/ketera form he is 24 feet tall (7.31m) and 36 feet long (10.9m) including tail. He's not huge in build since he's a flying critter. He also has massive wings. now...my question for you is, does this creature qualify as a gigantic, gargantuan, or colossaul creature? I'm having a really hard time deciding and for some reason my brain just doesn't feel like figuring it out.

 

Thnx for the help

[Hawksmoor]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Ummm I thought size didn't matter to chicks?

 

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OK well those classifications are not in HERO. I'd would just give him 4-6 levels of Growth Inherent to simulate his size. I know it is not the STEVE way but Steve occasionally errs. This is one place.

 

Hawksmoor

[Onyxclaw]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

there are templates for size, I was just going to use those, since it's always on... these are on pages 574-576 of Fred

 

it says that:

gigantic is up to 16 times human size, taking up 8.1-16"

gargantuan is up to 32 times human size taking up 16.1-32"

colassal is up to 64 times human size...well you get the picture.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Sorry I see those words and I think D&D. You are right about the rough sizes being in Fred.

 

I would go with a vehicle size approach here and ignore the wings. I would also ignore the tail since that is likely a Stretching power any way and divide his length by 6 to determine how many hexes long he is and use HD to fashion the right levels of growth.

 

Hawksmoor

[Onyxclaw]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

ewwwww, but I'll give it a shot

[Hawksmoor]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Growth (+30 STR, +6 BODY, +6 STUN, -6" KB, 12,800 kg, -4 DCV, +4 PER Rolls to perceive character, 8 m tall, 4 m wide), Inherent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (67 Active Points)

 

Makes him 24 feet tall and 36 feet long

 

Hawksmoor

[Old Man]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

So it means, he's gigantic...

[Hawksmoor]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

And it still fits?

 

Hawksmoor

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Quick Note:

 

In 5E, you don't use Always On Growth or Shrinking; those powers are only for characters who change size. You just give the character appropriate stats and powers to simulate always being gigantic (extra STR, Stretching, Knockback Resistance), and then a Physical Limitation based on the size.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Quick Note:

 

In 5E, you don't use Always On Growth or Shrinking; those powers are only for characters who change size. You just give the character appropriate stats and powers to simulate always being gigantic (extra STR, Stretching, Knockback Resistance), and then a Physical Limitation based on the size.

 

1 I didn't use always on I used Persisent and Inherent.

 

2 Steve's way is cracked out in my opinion and I noted such before I answered

 

3 Growth Density Increase and Shrinking are all shorthand for these effects anyway.

 

Hawksmoor

[Onyxclaw]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

well, he has a multiform (one other form determined by the person he's bonded to), but I don't think that really counts for changing size. I haven't decided how I want to handle the size, I was just wondering wich catagory he fell into, and now I have my answer.

 

He's gigantic.

 

Thnx for the help though, I had never really looked at growth and now I understand how it works ^-^

[Sean Waters]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Large and small creatures are a somewhat difficult problem. Extremely large creatures are cheaper to buy with growth than just with powers, largely becasue of the daft cost of stretching.

 

Can I just mention that I feel it is appropriate to buy damage resistance (ph and en)for large creatures, as this is quite a good way of, in effect, increasing their Stun and BODY totals.

 

For 60 points you can have half damage resistance to physical and energy attacks, which effectively doubles your STUN and BODY against these attacks.Assuming you have (say) 50 STR, 20 CON and 15 BODY you get , in effect, +50 STUN and +15 BODY (80 cps worth). Quite an appropriate way to model a large creature's resistance to damage, is damage resistance, without making the damn thing invulnerable.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

thnx for the tip, actually I had given him 50% DR to PD/ED resistant due to his heavy scales/size/and dense muscle tissue. I also halved the knockback resistant he should recieve for size since he's a flying critter and thus has light bones/muscle structure even though he is rather big.

 

He still has about 40 hardened resistant PD/ED in addition to his natural PD/ED for his stats, wich are also quite hefty.

 

But then he's a 2500 point Elder Dragon, So I figure that I can get away with that. Honestly the reason I'm bothering to stat him out is that he has a "human" form (which is built as a multiform with all of his abilities -any based on his natural shape. So no size bonuses or penalties, no flight, no claws, etc) and unfortunatley I can see my PCs making a mistake once or twice in thier character's short lives. Also, they will be dealing with this [the human] form on a regular basis. I also just want to, he's a precious character to me that I've never tried to stat out but have had around for years.

 

(the other thing that should be noted is that the PCs are 500 point characters, so he's not quite as overpowerd as might be gleened from the previous statements)

[Hawksmoor]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Then by gawd make sure your dragon can withstand a combined assault without getting stunned. Maybe Penalty Skill Levels Usable Against Others (-10 Teamwork) via Dragon Fear power linked to a Change Environment (-3 OCV) Dragon Fear 12" Radius.

 

Beacause the nasty thing about wolfpack tactics is that they work...especially with 500pt PCs. I know I play one. :evil:

 

Hawksmoor

[Sean Waters]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Then by gawd make sure your dragon can withstand a combined assault without getting stunned. Maybe Penalty Skill Levels Usable Against Others (-10 Teamwork) via Dragon Fear power linked to a Change Environment (-3 OCV) Dragon Fear 12" Radius.

 

Beacause the nasty thing about wolfpack tactics is that they work...especially with 500pt PCs. I know I play one. :evil:

 

Hawksmoor

 

 

...damage resistance helps here too as it effectively doubles your CON, but it is a good point well made - once you are on the ropes you are in real trouble.

 

I am not keen on the solution proposed, effective as it is, as I think it would just upset PCs far more than having something that can hit but that can take the damage. They'll probably expect that from a dragon. One solution you might consider is applying (as a general rule) penalties to teamwork attempts depending ont he number of participants, so 2 attackers NO PENALTY 3 or 4 -2, 5 or 6 is a -4 and so on (halve the number co-ordinating and subtract one). basically you roll in order: first has no penalty, second, no penalty, third and forth have -2, fifth and sixth have -4 (so you'll want your best hitters rolling first, I'd have thought). This would effectively stop (say) 40 low levels each only getting one or two points through defences from stunning a high powered character, but still allows a significant portion of a team to co-ordinate.

 

If you want to be real complicated, remember how much each one missed by. Everyone who made the roll is in one coordination group, everyone who missed by 1 is in another, by 2 in another, and so on...

 

Other interesting stuff to do with coordination attempts:

 

I allow a bonus if each character is using the same weapon/manoeuvre combination - it is easier to coordinate two dagger strikes than a dagger and an axe strike.

 

I apply a penalty for coordinating ranged and melee attacks.

 

I allow a bonus for appropriate communication (mind link/HRRT for example) and a penalty if there is no effective communication, for example on most battlefields, unless there is special equipment, or some cunning pre-arranged signal that everyone clearly perceives.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

well, since this not a party based game (see "Gaming without a Party") I'm not too worried about massive characters teamworking him. Most of the time they will be alone or with other NPCS. He does have penalty skill levels to teamwork to prevent such things though, as well as all of the levels of defensive manuvers.

 

Also, since he is a Shadow Dragon, if he had to he *could* become incoporeal for a short time to avoid the attacks, though of course it would be discribed much more dramatic than that. But I want to avoid the players from feeling cheesed if they relly want to hit him, so this will only happen once in a blue moon. He has a Massive Con, so stunning him will be difficult.

 

Also, as an arcane and "shadow" spell caster he should be ok with thing like this, lost of tricks up his sleeve

 

In human form his dex wont be penalized for his massive size, that combined with a large number of CSLs and OSLs will help keep him from getting hit.

 

I haven't finished him yet, but when I do I'd appreciate it if you guys wouldn't mind looking him over. He's turned out to be quite a challenge...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Quick Note:

 

In 5E, you don't use Always On Growth or Shrinking; those powers are only for characters who change size. You just give the character appropriate stats and powers to simulate always being gigantic (extra STR, Stretching, Knockback Resistance), and then a Physical Limitation based on the size.

 

That's the "official rule". IMO, it was more brought in so a sparrow didn't cost more than a lion (ie this is more about shrinking than growth). However, if you want to simulate a creature 24' tall and 36' long, the common way to go about it is either to buy the growth (and hang the rule!) or determine the effects from the correct amount of growth and buy powers, abilities and disad's accordingly.

 

What bugs me agout the 5e approach is that, if Growth (DI, Shrinking) is properly priced, and 0 END, persistent, inherent and always on are properly priced why isn't growth (DI, Shrinking) which is 0 END, persistent, inherent and always on properly priced? The real advantage to the 5e method is that you can mix & match which parts of each, and how much of each, you get.

 

So that sparrow may be 2.25" tall (5 levels Shrinking) but we don't buy it +10 DCV, and suddenly it costs less. And cats don't need more combat ;evels than Captain America!

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

I've been mulling over a different way to do size, to unify it for characters and vehicles and to include Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase.

 

You'd buy additional Body, Knockback Resistance, and, optionally, STR with a -1/4 Increases Mass Limitation. Each +1 BODY, -1" KBR, and +5 STR bought this way doubles your mass (one doubling for the group rather than one doubling for each; buying them all with the -1/4 Limitation doesn't give you 8x mass).

 

You can also buy a new Power called Scale. It costs 5 points for one level of Scale, and every level of Scale doubles the size of one hex, for you. You're still one hex tall, can reach into the next hex, and have a base movement of 6 hexes per Phase, but if, for instance, you had three levels of Scale, each of those hexes would be 16 meters long. +15 STR, +3 BODY, -3" KBR, and one level of Scale corresponds to one level of Growth. If you wanted to have the ability to get larger or smaller, buy it all Costs Endurance or Non-Persistent. Buying the mass-increasing stuff without Scale corresponds to Density Increase. You'd still need to buy other things, like additional CON, resistant defenses, etc. if you wanted those to go along with it (you could potentially buy it all Linked).

 

Thing is, I'm not quite sure what to do for Shrinking.

[zornwil]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

I'm a little tired to think too deeply about it, but I'd think somehow, ultimately, you'd want to merge the concepts of Scale and Megascale.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Thing is, I'm not quite sure what to do for Shrinking.

 

I like the option for Growth and DI, but you are right scaling down hexes to match Shrinking violates the rules of the Superhero genre in which your movement doesn't get altered.

 

Hawksmoor

 

Still some Rep for the thought process is yours in about 13 people sorry.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

I like the option for Growth and DI, but you are right scaling down hexes to match Shrinking violates the rules of the Superhero genre in which your movement doesn't get altered.

 

Well, I think it's all relative. One guy who is three Scale levels bigger than another is going to have eight times the movement of the smaller, whether the big guy or the little guy is human sized. So... say that if you want Shrinking, you buy down your mass (probably just buy buying negative levels of Knockback Resistance with the -1/4 Limitation) and then you can either buy down your Scale or not, and just say that being harder to hit is a result of extra DCV. If you don't buy down your Scale, then you get your full movement. Alternately, you could buy negative levels of Scale with the Does Not Affect Movement Limitation.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Well' date=' I think it's all relative. One guy who is three Scale levels bigger than another is going to have eight times the movement of the smaller, whether the big guy or the little guy is human sized. So... say that if you want Shrinking, you buy down your mass (probably just buy buying negative levels of Knockback Resistance with the -1/4 Limitation) and then you can either buy down your Scale or not, and just say that being harder to hit is a result of extra DCV.[/quote']

 

hmmm true. The old halfling and Storm Giant debate. The only problem I see is that when movement powers are paid for the shrunk character has less utility and the growth character has greater utility. I am thinking along the lines you started and trying to come up with a solution to integrating Growth and Shrinking in the scale model. Hopefully it is easier than quantum gravity.

 

Hawksmoor

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

hmmm true. The old halfling and Storm Giant debate. The only problem I see is that when movement powers are paid for the shrunk character has less utility and the growth character has greater utility. I am thinking along the lines you started and trying to come up with a solution to integrating Growth and Shrinking in the scale model. Hopefully it is easier than quantum gravity.

 

Hawksmoor

 

I edited while you were posting, and I'll reproduce my edit here:

If you don't buy down your Scale, then you get your full movement. Alternately, you could buy negative levels of Scale with the Does Not Affect Movement Limitation.

 

You'd get points back for taking negative levels of Scale because, even though you're harder to hit, you are losing movement. Ummm... now that I think about it, maybe you shouldn't take negative Scale with Does Not Affect Movement, because you're essentially getting points back for being harder to hit. Hmmm.

 

I figure the cost (5 points per level) is a wash because for 5 points you can double any one movement mode, and for +1/4 you can turn any Power's hexes into kilometers.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

I think that perhaps we should divorce ourselves from the 5 pt per level of Growth construct when using scale and increase the cost to 10 or 15 points. Most genre characters are not that tall, and in so doing we maintain the balance since growth now costs more than DI or Shrinking.

 

Hawksmoor

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: your thoughts on size

 

Using my method, to get the same size increase as for one level of Growth currently, you'd buy one level of Scale (5 points), +3 BODY Increases Mass (-1/4) (4.8 real points), -3" Knockback Resistance Increases Mass (-1/4) (how many points? IDHMBIFOM), +15 STR Increases Mass (-1/4) (12 Real Points), plus whatever else you need for Growth. 22 points plus whatever the Knockback Resistance costs; your height is 4 meters, your mass is 800kg, and your reach and movement are all denominated in 4 meter hexes. I'd call that pretty fair. Plus it costs the same whether you're building a character or a Vehicle.