Thinking Differently About SPD

[Kirby]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

How about a SPD 24 villain? I've done that. Very light-weight but you try getting hit every phase and the guy's well out of range before you can react!

Is a Speed 24 even legal? Aside from "GM's option house rules" that is. I've seen and heard of people trying this (and it being disallowed), but it sounds oh so munchkiny.

 

I personally would never allow it. It also seems to defeat the purpose of 12 phase turns; YMMV.

[zornwil]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Is a Speed 24 even legal? Aside from "GM's option house rules" that is. I've seen and heard of people trying this (and it being disallowed), but it sounds oh so munchkiny.

 

I personally would never allow it. It also seems to defeat the purpose of 12 phase turns; YMMV.

Nah, it's not legal. But it doesn't defeat the purpose, it just adds more actions in a phase, essentially. It was an NPC, to be clear.

 

I've never run a game where PCs got to this level, but if I did, the way I would do it is charge double for each increment in the 13-24 range, and double again for 25-36 and so on. But like I said I've never run anything this high-powered.

[Kirby]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Nah, it's not legal. But it doesn't defeat the purpose, it just adds more actions in a phase, essentially. It was an NPC, to be clear.

 

I've never run a game where PCs got to this level, but if I did, the way I would do it is charge double for each increment in the 13-24 range, and double again for 25-36 and so on. But like I said I've never run anything this high-powered.

I had a friend who use to GM games at some Cons in Dallas years ago. He was running a Champions game and allowed people to bring their own creations as long as they were book legal (he also had premade characters for anyone new). He had several people want to play characters with speeds from 18-24. He did "nix" them after one turn of combat when they found out they weren't allowed to have anything faster than 12. This was in a 250 point game ('back in the day'), so those wasted points hurt. He offered them the chance to play some of his premade characters.

 

For the 'more actions' the closest I've seen, and something I like, is an optional way to create a martial art form that involves blocking and attacking in the same phase. In 4E Ninja HERO (p.89) there is one where all moves cost between 3-5 points, but all have a -4 OCV. I thought there was another 4E one that all moves had -2 OCV and cost 7 points, but I can't seem to find it, if it exists. This is something that I would allow.

[Nadrakas]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Interesting how SPD is the only Characteristic with an "Absolute" limit. You can go above a SPD of 12, but the extra speed only counts against Drains and the like. Otherwise anything above a 12 is...useless.

 

Hmmm...can't really think of any other Characteristic/Power that is so limited. Don't get me wrong - I understand why...the SPD 24 PC/NPC would be absolutely devastating. Then again, a 6 SPD character with a lot of "extra's" to simulate Quickness can be devastating too.

 

(Shrug)

 

Hmmm...how about...umm...scrapping SPD (Duck). Initiative in each Phase is determined by a Characters DEX or EGO and any Lightning Reflexes he/she has. So...why not just do away with SPD, make a combat phase equal 1 second and have whoever has a higher DEX or EGO go first? If someone wants extra attacks/actions let them get "Autofire."

 

(Huddles behind a thick wall...waiting for the inevitable food to be thrown)

 

 

Nadrakas...

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I've treated SPD in this kind of the same way for years, linking SPD to max damage dice. The more you're in the spotlight, the less your attacks do, but low SPD characters get a higher damage cap, ensuring more frequent double-page panels. :-)

[Kirby]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Hmmm...how about...umm...scrapping SPD (Duck).

 

 

Okay, seriously, I don't think this would work, in my opinion. Speed is a nice way of letting speedsters shine. I happen to like the uniqueness of Speed compared to other games where everyone gets the same amount of attacks per initiative. It's a great simulator. The Flash shouldn't have the same number of 'opportunities' as John Doe.

[Kirby]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I've treated SPD in this kind of the same way for years' date=' linking SPD to max damage dice. The more you're in the spotlight, the less your attacks do, but low SPD characters get a higher damage cap, ensuring more frequent double-page panels. :-)[/quote']

Do you have a particular formula or rule for how you do that? It sounds interesting.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Do you have a particular formula or rule for how you do that? It sounds interesting.

 

Yes, I have a table linking SPD to Max Base Points, Max Active Points with Advantages, Max DEFs, Max DEX, and Max OCV/DCV, which varies according to the power rating of a campaign.

 

For an Experienced campaign (typically built on 350 points), they are:

 

SPD Max Base Max w/Advant. Max DEF Max DEX Max OCV/DCV

4 80 120 30 23 11/13

5 70 105 25 26 11/13

6 60 90 23 29 12/14

7-8 50 75 18 33 12/14

 

Other campaign types have different benchmarks. I'm still tweaking the numbers; I plan to include the final ones in Gestalt.

[zornwil]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I had a friend who use to GM games at some Cons in Dallas years ago. He was running a Champions game and allowed people to bring their own creations as long as they were book legal (he also had premade characters for anyone new). He had several people want to play characters with speeds from 18-24. He did "nix" them after one turn of combat when they found out they weren't allowed to have anything faster than 12. This was in a 250 point game ('back in the day'), so those wasted points hurt. He offered them the chance to play some of his premade characters.

 

For the 'more actions' the closest I've seen, and something I like, is an optional way to create a martial art form that involves blocking and attacking in the same phase. In 4E Ninja HERO (p.89) there is one where all moves cost between 3-5 points, but all have a -4 OCV. I thought there was another 4E one that all moves had -2 OCV and cost 7 points, but I can't seem to find it, if it exists. This is something that I would allow.

I wouldn't expect SPD 12, even, in typical games. Nor would I want a PC to be SPD 12, but that has as much to do with the rest of the players not being near that and the great point about air time made that kicked this off. Although I think SPD creep is a different topic, representing growth over a long gaming period.

[zornwil]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

 

 

Okay, seriously, I don't think this would work, in my opinion. Speed is a nice way of letting speedsters shine. I happen to like the uniqueness of Speed compared to other games where everyone gets the same amount of attacks per initiative. It's a great simulator. The Flash shouldn't have the same number of 'opportunities' as John Doe.

I like SPD for characters like Batman. I think it goes a long way in explaining how "normal" type supers can compete. If you bear in mind the idea that each phase is a second, I don't see any reason a PC can't be SPD 12 inherently, although I can see lots of good non-inherent reasons (balance, etc.). Anyway, the point is that I think SPD is an excellent differentiator for a number of types of things, not just speedsters.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Possible Ground Rules that could be set:

1. No Reduced Endurance Advantages on Movement Powers

2. SPD bought above 6 is limited to Speedsters and requires Extra SPD can only be used for movement powers and recoveries (-1).

 

So, you could have a SPD 12 character with odd phases only allowed to be used for recoveries and movements.

[Markdoc]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

 

 

Okay, seriously, I don't think this would work, in my opinion. Speed is a nice way of letting speedsters shine. I happen to like the uniqueness of Speed compared to other games where everyone gets the same amount of attacks per initiative. It's a great simulator. The Flash shouldn't have the same number of 'opportunities' as John Doe.

 

We actually tried this for one campaign: my character was a two-fisted gunfighter who compensated for a lack of speed by buying area affect selective attacks and the like.

 

After 4 or 5 sessions, the game folded. Without SPD, combat became very repetitive and rather dull ("D&D-like", in one player's words). It's a pity, because the GM was excellent: we should have just added SPD back in

 

The problem with SPD creep, IMO is simply part of the general problem of points creep. If you give players more points to spend, you should naturally expect higher SPD.

 

And if you think you have SPD problems, pity my first Champs GM. After making a first character without understanding SPD and END (a slow lumbering BRICK, who had a rec of 30 to cover his END requirements and spent a lot of his time going "Hey guys, wait for me!") I made a time-manipulating martial artist. Originally SPD 6, he could crank up to SPD 12 for short periods of time - and duplicate himself. So on phase 1 it was Nexus, Nexus, Nexus and Nexus. On phase 2, it was Nexus, Nexus, Nexus and Nexus - and Shadowspawn. On phase 3 it was Nexus, Nexus, Nexus and Nexus - and everyone else.

 

After two game sessions, I (ahem) toned him down but it was pretty damn amusing (for me) while it lasted.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

 

 

Okay, seriously, I don't think this would work, in my opinion. Speed is a nice way of letting speedsters shine. I happen to like the uniqueness of Speed compared to other games where everyone gets the same amount of attacks per initiative. It's a great simulator. The Flash shouldn't have the same number of 'opportunities' as John Doe.

 

In my game, I should say old game my wife made us chuck the HERO system (what can I say she didn't like the tactical aspects of combat), normals were Speed 2 and Supers were Speed 4. No one spent points on Speed as a house rule except where required to achieve Speed 4 and everyone did fine.

 

The speedster, Blue Streak, had lots of powerstunts with her magical speedster powers like AE Line "Move-bys" and Transforms "Do everything 1 million times faster". Her Speed score was not essential for her to shine as a speedster. Her Powers made her a speedster.

 

Hawksmoor

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I've played in a campaign where there was a SPD 12 speedster, Rambler. At the time, I was running a SPD 4 brick, Ranger. At no time did I feel Rambler was outshining Ranger. Rambler was blindingly fast, but he spent most combats dodging attacks and taking Recoveries. Ranger just took the hit, grunted, then moved in and smashed the bad guy with his vastly higher defenses and bigger attacks. While Rambler got many more Phases in any given combat, their "screen time" was pretty much equivalent.

 

As long as high SPD is coupled with relatively low defenses and attacks, I don't see a problem with it. It's a great way to simulate certain effects. I do agree that it's not essential to a speedster, but I still think a speedster should generally have a higher SPD than any other character in the campaign, even if it's only by one.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

The only problem is that SPEED score is often used differently depending on the side of the GMs screen you happen to be sitting on. Players get one set of rules (Speed is for low DEF, low attack speedsters) and the GM gets a different set (Speed is for megavillians or supremely accomplished foes). That is not what Speed is IMHO.

 

Speed is the number of actions you can take in a turn of combat. That is all. Works for all players and GM characters and doesn't morph into a weird class-like system. Regardless of what Gary is likely to say when he finds this thread.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

On a different train of thought, why not create a 12 SPD villain? I don't recall ever seeing one in any HERO books, the closest was Lung Hung who was 10 SPD, I believe.

 

I created a 12 SPD villain 'lackey' called Speed Demon. His use was the "master villain's" main lieutentant/pet. His initial purpose was to draw blood from each of the PC so the master villain could make clones of them.

 

How official do you want? Sensor, from the old Adventurer's Club, had a 12 SPD. As I recall, the publishing of a 12 SPD character caused quite a stir at the time.

 

BTW, Sensor was extremely fast, but had very low defenses and relatively low offensive power.

[zornwil]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

The only problem is that SPEED score is often used differently depending on the side of the GMs screen you happen to be sitting on. Players get one set of rules (Speed is for low DEF, low attack speedsters) and the GM gets a different set (Speed is for megavillians or supremely accomplished foes). That is not what Speed is IMHO.

 

Speed is the number of actions you can take in a turn of combat. That is all. Works for all players and GM characters and doesn't morph into a weird class-like system. Regardless of what Gary is likely to say when he finds this thread.

 

Hawksmoor

A lot of the reason I will give some villains substantially hgiher SPD is simply because that's an important edge if a villain is going to go solo against a competent and diverse team of supers.

[zornwil]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

How official do you want? Sensor, from the old Adventurer's Club, had a 12 SPD. As I recall, the publishing of a 12 SPD character caused quite a stir at the time.

 

BTW, Sensor was extremely fast, but had very low defenses and relatively low offensive power.

My SPD 24 villain was also very light. After getting tagged many times in a row, the target hero got smart and did a Trip maneuver. On that phase, both characters got knocked out or stunned (can't quite recall)!

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

A lot of the reason I will give some villains substantially hgiher SPD is simply because that's an important edge if a villain is going to go solo against a competent and diverse team of supers.

 

Right. Which means SPEED is not for Speedster archetypes. It means that it should not be tied to an attack/damage schema. It means that the only use for SPEED is to allow for a certain number of actions a turn.

 

SPEED is the single most important mechanic in the game, as it defines so much of how the game actually works. Yet, SPEED is the most commonly misunderstood mechanic since it means something totally different depending on who is using it.

 

Hawksmoor

 

Oh and Zornwil: Thanks for the Rep!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

Interesting how SPD is the only Characteristic with an "Absolute" limit. You can go above a SPD of 12, but the extra speed only counts against Drains and the like. Otherwise anything above a 12 is...useless.

 

Hmmm...can't really think of any other Characteristic/Power that is so limited. Don't get me wrong - I understand why...the SPD 24 PC/NPC would be absolutely devastating. Then again, a 6 SPD character with a lot of "extra's" to simulate Quickness can be devastating too.

 

(Shrug)

 

Hmmm...how about...umm...scrapping SPD (Duck). Initiative in each Phase is determined by a Characters DEX or EGO and any Lightning Reflexes he/she has. So...why not just do away with SPD, make a combat phase equal 1 second and have whoever has a higher DEX or EGO go first? If someone wants extra attacks/actions let them get "Autofire."

 

(Huddles behind a thick wall...waiting for the inevitable food to be thrown)

 

 

Nadrakas...

 

Did you even read my House Rules when I posted them? I've used initiative in Hero for years... though based off of the SPD stat. Works really well for us.

[zornwil]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I can definitely see eliminating SPD for some games, but I think it's a good, whether "truly necessary", part of the core system. It is a simple way for even poor tactical players to have extraordinary impact against "mere mortals'. For some heroic fiction emulation, I think it's a good way to also differentiate those so special. Personally, I even like it in pulp or other near-contemporary action where the difference is only one of 2-4 SPDs, with 4 being really unusual.

[Kirby]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

How official do you want? Sensor, from the old Adventurer's Club, had a 12 SPD. As I recall, the publishing of a 12 SPD character caused quite a stir at the time.

 

BTW, Sensor was extremely fast, but had very low defenses and relatively low offensive power.

Cool, though I don't have any Adventurer's Club stuff (I do have nearly every 4E product along with various 1st-3rd E items).

 

I searched and found the sheet for Speed Demon from the 250 game (well, really 275, but you had to have 25 points worth of noncomb skills). He had a Dex of 40 (first ever for us), SPD 12, of course, 13 OCV/DCV (no skill levels) 60 END, 50 STUN, and his PD & ED were 10/5 each. His only appearance with the PCs/GMPCs were when five of the eight were in a car. He had a total 4d6 HKA w/AP & Penetrating (to help him get blood) with his four arms and total 2d6 w/his teeth. Once he drew blood from everyone, he left.

[ZootSoot]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

I ruled in the Damocles Directive game in the GGU, and in my small F2F game, that I did not want to have any PCs with greater than a 6 Speed. I had a 9 speed PC briefly and felt that was too fast, especially for the constraints of a PBEM.

 

Further I believe that SPEED score does not make the speedster. Lightning Reflexes or DEX, Defense Manuver 1-4, Speed Tricks MP, and of course a high movement rate those are the defining features of a speedster. Using this philosophy a great speedster could be developed on any speed score you assigned. I have one based on a streamlined SPEED F2F game with a 4 Speed (but then all Supers have a 4 speed in that game).

 

 

So you say "No SPD scores higher than 6," to a gaming group of, oh say, seven players and you get back seven PCs all with SPD 6

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

So you say "No SPD scores higher than 6' date='" to a gaming group of, oh say, seven players and you get back seven PCs all with SPD 6 [/quote']

 

This is why I hate setting hard maximums - they quickly become minimums as well. Tell players "Maximum 12 DC attacks" and watch how many 10DC attacks come in...

[zornwil]

Re: Thinking Differently About SPD

 

This is why I hate setting hard maximums - they quickly become minimums as well. Tell players "Maximum 12 DC attacks" and watch how many 10DC attacks come in...

I will tritto this (is that a triple ditto?)