Sean Waters Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Interesting question in the Rules Questions: A car is moving with a velocity of 30". A hero creates a 10 PD Force Wall in front of the car. The resulting movethrough knocks down the Force Wall. What is the new velocity of the car? Haven't we warned you about your driving? It's 30". Nothing in the rules slows down a moving character or object if it successfully smashes through a barrier or similar obstacle. GMs interested in greater "realism" could certainly devise an optional rule for that if they want to, and there'll probably be more information on the subject in The Ultimate Speedster. Can I suggest this: if the strength of the thing moving is sufficient to demolish the barrier there is no attenuation of velocity. If not then start with the DEF + BODY, deduct the number of DC you got from STRENGTH. This leaves a 'velocity factor' - the amount of damage required from the velocity to break through over and above strength. Multiply that by 3" to get the amount of velocity actually needed to contribute that amount of damage, and that is what was used to break through. You are doing the move through calculation in reverse, in effect. In answer to the question in the post, it therefore depends on the strength of the vehicle. A station wagon with a STR of 30 would lose 10(DEF) - 6(for 30 strength) = 4x3" = 12 inches of movement, so it would be going at 18" after the crash. Sounds fair and easy enough. You may wish to apply crash damage to the passengers of the vehicle depending on the amount of velocity lost, rather than applying the normal 1/2 the move through damage rule. Base damage would be the 'velocity factor' (in the above it was 4DC). Use of safety equipment, like seat belts etc would act as armour or damage resistance against this damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers All of that is nice, but if the genre simulation you are aiming for is the opposite: Superman is struck for 33" of KB by Zod's mute minion and sails through three buildings until he comes to rest, then the existing rules work just fine. This is how, IMO, the Champions/HERO rules were devised. To emulate really cool superfights! Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJackBrass Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers I can't think of many instances where the new velocity of the vehicle would actually matter, as far as the game is concerned. Certainly no such situation has ever come up in one of my games in the past, but of course others may prefer more detail and it's an interesting fix for those who need to know. More important to me is the matter of control of the vehicle after impact, which is going to be affected by such concerns as whether the barrier is opaque, remains attached to the car, damages the steering mechanism and so forth, and for that someone's going to be looking at a modified skill roll and, most likely, a GM gleefully rubbing his hands together as he launches into the description of what's happening... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted July 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers The rules already scupper you on the KB thing - each point of BODY or DEF of something you are knocked back through reduces your KB by 1": Superman wouldn't even be knocked back through a pre-fabricated toilet block: Outer wooden walls: 4 DEF, 3 BODY (=7x2 = 14" loss of KB) Inner partitions (x 5): 2 DEF, 1 BODY (=5x 3 = 15" loss of KB) Width of toilet block = 8m = 4" loss of KB Total = 14 + 15 + 4 = 33" attenuation: the back wall would (just) stop him. Sorry. Can I suggest, for what you want, 'casual strength KB' - unless the BODY+DEF of what you are going through is more than half the current velocity it doesn't slow you down at all = in the above example, you could ignore the pre-fab entirely for purposes of knockback attenuation, well, all but the width of 4". As for when it would velocity attenuation would matter - well, what if you are chasing the car and the only way you can slow it enough to catch it is to use barriers - they will break initially but eventually it will slow so much that it can't get up enough velocity to break through, AND it gives you a better chance of catching it. As for control, can I suggest a combat driving roll with with a penalty equal to the velocity factor - driving a tank through a wall - no real control problems - driving a motor bike through a similar wall - real control problems, the difference being the tank used mainly strength and the motor bike used mainly velocity factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers Ah there we go. Years of HERO Shorthand. I do use DEF+Body compared to KB (or Movement) to determine if the object would stop the projectile. You are correct on the way the rules work. Carry on TRL. Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers I can't think of many instances where the new velocity of the vehicle would actually matter, as far as the game is concerned. Certainly no such situation has ever come up in one of my games in the past, but of course others may prefer more detail and it's an interesting fix for those who need to know. More important to me is the matter of control of the vehicle after impact, which is going to be affected by such concerns as whether the barrier is opaque, remains attached to the car, damages the steering mechanism and so forth, and for that someone's going to be looking at a modified skill roll and, most likely, a GM gleefully rubbing his hands together as he launches into the description of what's happening... I can think of a situation where post-move-through velocities matter: if the vehicle is trying to crash through multiple walls. A sequence of spaced, identical barriers is a relatively inexpensive (compared to a more massive single barrier) and effective real-world defense against e.g. terrorist vans full of explosives, but without velocity attenuation then such a defense is merely equal to the first barrier. Conservation of momentum would be the physical principle that governs the post-impact velocities. I'll have to re-read the basic rules for details and see if I can derive something that would work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted July 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers Ah there we go. Years of HERO Shorthand. I do use DEF+Body compared to KB (or Movement) to determine if the object would stop the projectile. You are correct on the way the rules work. Carry on TRL. Hawksmoor Despite my desperate pedantry, I quite agree as to HOW KB should work. There should almost always be appalling property damage and the hero...well...heroically clambering out of the rubble for round two. I may not be a romantic at heart, but I knows what I likes. Porta-potties. Sheesh. What was I thinking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers I may not be a romantic at heart, but I knows what I likes. Porta-potties. Sheesh. What was I thinking? "The villain has placed his Secret Headquarters in the Porta-potty wing of the Sewage Museum!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers "The villain has placed his Secret Headquarters in the Porta-potty wing of the Sewage Museum!" "Can we sneak in through 'The World's Biggest Manhole?' Umm, that didn't sound right..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers If it mattered in a scenario, I'd be tempted to find some middle ground. Say, if the vehicle does 2xBODY or more to the barrier, it doesn't slow down. If it does between 1x and 2xBODY, it slows down by DEF + BODY per the KB rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted July 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers "The villain has placed his Secret Headquarters in the Porta-potty wing of the Sewage Museum!" ...this plot stinnks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers ...this plot stinnks... We'd better just hope the party doesn't get wasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted July 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers We'd better just hope the party doesn't get wasted. Nah, they're flush with success! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers Nah' date=' they're flush with success![/quote'] I'm sure they'll do just swimmingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted July 9, 2005 Report Share Posted July 9, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers Despite my desperate pedantry' date=' I quite agree as to HOW KB [i']should [/i] work. There should almost always be appalling property damage and the hero...well...heroically clambering out of the rubble for round two. I may not be a romantic at heart, but I knows what I likes. Porta-potties. Sheesh. What was I thinking? Kind of a funny thing, but while I like superheroes, I don't like KB going very far, I'm not fond of the massive distances and all that. I'm less rigorous on the technicalities; if I think a barrier seems like it should be tough enough, it is, if I want someone to go through 2 buildings, they do, unless of course it would really make a difference, in which case we will go by BOD+DEF versus # inches thing as Sean mentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Re: Driving through barriers I might just calculate Knockback for the vehicle's Move Through like I would normally against a character (based on Body damage), and allow the vehicle to move a maximum of this amount of distance afterward. That's about the way it would work if you were hitting a character, after all. I would probably give it KB Resistance equal to its Def+Body, as it is, "anchored." Just an idea. How I would actually handle it would probably depend on the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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