Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

[Blackberry]

Long story short, I'm building a superhero character named Rave. He was an intense raver who had a whole lot of homemade mind-altering drugs in his body when he was involved in some horrible raving accident... details to be filled in later.

 

So, he's basically only borderline sane and functional now. He has a constant rave going in his mind, and he can project elements of the rave -- dark room with a bright, swirling light show; a confusing throng of people; endlessly pounding, driving music -- into other people's minds.

 

He has a lot of powers related to that, taking the form of Mental Illusions, Ego Attack, Succor, Drain, and Missile Deflection. All but the last are in a "Rave-Confusion" Elemental Control. But he badly needs a defense.

 

I was thinking of a defense related to the idea that he can simply create an illusory crowd of faceless dancers and then blend into them going totally unnoticed. They don't have to be terribly convincingly real; part of the illusion is to make him look like all the rest of the dancers.

 

What I wrote up was two linked powers:

 

- in the EC: Mental Illusions, 5d6, AE 3" radius nonselective, no range, must center on self, Personal Immunity, only to create a packed crowd of ravers, stops working if mentalist is stunned

 

- outside the EC: Invisibility to sight group, hearing group, smell/taste group, touch group, spatial awareness, linked (must use together), only invisible to those hit by Mental Illusions and affected at least > EGO

 

Buying enough Mental Illusions AE radius so that anyone who sees him would be affected is impossible in 350 points, but just Invisibility doesn't really do it. Plus a totally invisible mentalist is just asking for trouble.

 

How would you build this?

 

Invisibility with Requires Skill Roll defined as requiring an ECV vs ECV to-hit roll vs anyone who can perceive him and doesn't work vs. those with Mental Awareness?

 

Change Environment to cover a large area and provide OCV and PER penalties (with selective targeting), somehow Based on ECV and only for people aiming at or perceiving Rave himself?

 

Force Field with really ridiculously implausible special effects?

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

i think change environment to make everyone's OCV really really bad, would be a fun way to go about it

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

I'd just build the first Power to create the illusion of the rave party, and link Invisibility (visual, aural, or both) with it, much as you did. Write the SFX of the Invisibility to reflect the fact that your character's getting his invisibility from the rave illusion.

 

OR -- you can build the illusion Power for the rave, and link another Power to it that drastically improves the character's Stealth skill. I think I might go with that way, since it's more elegant than the Invisibility route and gives enemies a chance to spot him.

[schir1964]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

Have you thought about using Images with BOECV. Just another avenue you could explore.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Blackberry]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

Have you thought about using Images with BOECV. Just another avenue you could explore.

 

I have thought about that. The problem is that Images doesn't actually do anything! It can cause damage if you get an immense enough result, but there's no way I could get INT+30 with the dice I'd have from making it AoE and BOECV, and DCV isn't exactly damage...

[schir1964]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

I have thought about that. The problem is that Images doesn't actually do anything! It can cause damage if you get an immense enough result' date=' but there's no way I could get INT+30 with the dice I'd have from making it AoE and BOECV, and DCV isn't exactly damage...[/quote']

Oh, I just thought they were insubstantial illusions. Sorry about that. However, the one benefit that Images has is that anyone looking at the area affected is going to see the images.

 

However, although it may be more expensive, it's possible to simulate the same thing with Images with a Linked Uncontrolled Telekinesis. But that might be a bit too complex for what you want.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Blackberry]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

Oh, I see what you mean. Images, Based on ECV, to create the "rave" image, then link to DCV levels and Stealth levels with the limitation that it doesn't work on those with Mental Awareness or for whom the Images doesn't beat their INT? I think that's the best way so far.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

Why use anything on top of the Images? Images makes people see what you want to see within an area. That means they could see your image instead of you. I don't see why it can't function as a sort of Invisibility, but it is going to have limits (such as allowing a Per roll, allowing an intelligent viewer to know the rough area you occupy so they could easily launch things like AoE attacks, etc.).

[Blackberry]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

Why use anything on top of the Images? Images makes people see what you want to see within an area. That means they could see your image instead of you. I don't see why it can't function as a sort of Invisibility' date=' but it is going to have limits (such as allowing a Per roll, allowing an intelligent viewer to know the rough area you occupy so they could easily launch things like AoE attacks, etc.).[/quote']

 

Doesn't the write-up for Images says that it has no game effects unless you get INT+30, and even then, all it does is damage? There's no provision for having a certain penalty to PER based on how successful your image is. The book also says that you shouldn't duplicate one power's effects by manipulating another power until it matches, if the other power already exists. If you make the image of a slick floor, can it act in all ways like a Change Environment with a DEX roll, or do you need to buy Change Environment for that? If you have illusion-based invisibility, shouldn't you just buy Invisibility?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

I think that the images or mental illusions would be enough.

 

He disappears into a crowd - ducks down an alley - wall appears in front of where you thought he was - he teleports away - etc. - all easy enough from images or mental illusions, and effectively render you "invisible" to the target.

[Blackberry]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

I think that the images or mental illusions would be enough.

 

He disappears into a crowd - ducks down an alley - wall appears in front of where you thought he was - he teleports away - etc. - all easy enough from images or mental illusions, and effectively render you "invisible" to the target.

 

Okay, but... (1) if it's Mental Illusions, how do you get it so that it affects everyone who can see you? That can be an awfully big AE:Radius. (2) If it's Images, what level of Images corresponds to what modifier to be hit or seen? What level corresponds to total invisibility?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

Okay' date=' but... (1) if it's Mental Illusions, how do you get it so that it affects everyone who can see you? That can be an awfully big AE:Radius. (2) If it's Images, what level of Images corresponds to what modifier to be hit or seen? What level corresponds to total invisibility?[/quote']

 

1) depends on how you envision the power - would he really be able to affect everyone who can see him? Or would he project it only to those nearby, and leave himself open to the unknown sniper down the street?

 

2) Not sure if it's really addressed in the rules - probably a GM call as to what equates to "total invisibility". But a significant penalty from images and a complementary stealth roll would be pretty darn close.

[Blackberry]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

I do like the idea of saving a few points, but I think my GM and I will like it better if I go with the Images and link some levels with DCV and Stealth to give a definite effect. I'll probably stair-step the levels to match the successfulness of the Images.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

What about using Darkness rather than images. The special effect of the darkness could be a field full of human shapes dancing in flickering light where features and other useful things are hidden.

 

Everyone will see the figures dancing and the flashing lights and dancers. The game effects would be similar to that of darkness and give you the defence that you seem to be looking for...

 

 

Doc

[Blackberry]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

Hmm, Darkness based on Ego somehow and always thrown on himself? It's essentially just Invisibility at that point, right, since he'll always hit himself with the Darkness and it's infallible?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

Hmm' date=' Darkness based on Ego somehow and always thrown on himself? It's essentially just Invisibility at that point, right, since he'll always hit himself with the Darkness and it's infallible?[/quote']

 

The EGO link could be a limitation to the darkness in that anyone who defeats the mentalist in an EGO vs EGO can see him standing in the midst of the dancers, quite clearly.

 

So not necessarily infallable but definitely along the lines of what you wanted. You would also need some ability to see out of the field or personal immunity bought for it...

[Blackberry]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

On the idea of Images BOECV... what would the BOECV do exactly? For normal Images, the viewer makes a PER roll to disbelieve. Would BOECV mean they would make an EGO roll? Would they get to add Mental Defense to their PER roll somehow?

[zornwil]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

I don't think there's firm guidelines on this sort of use of BOECV in the rules, from what I read in 5ER (shocking!). I would do it essentially as you are suggesting except I wouldn't use MD because Images itself is fairly absolute aside from the PER roll. I think an EGO roll makes perfect sense and is pretty fair. One could raise the difference between EGO being 2 for 1 and INT (basis of PER) being 1 for 1, but given one is already paying more for the advantage and given that EGO is going to be bought up for mentalists, anyway, it should work out pretty fairly.

[schir1964]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

On the idea of Images BOECV... what would the BOECV do exactly? For normal Images' date=' the viewer makes a PER roll to disbelieve. Would BOECV mean they would make an EGO roll? Would they get to add Mental Defense to their PER roll somehow?[/quote']

The way I envisioned it, and your GM may differ, is that the ECV is to determine when someone looks at the area, whether they see the images or not.

 

If they fail that roll, they see the images, but can still have a chance of telling they are "fake" with the normal perceptions rules.

 

If their ECV roll is successful, then they get to get to subtract thier EGO roll from the total images effect, affecting the Perception modifier for them. With a high enough EGO, they can easily ignore the images pesented, maybe they appear as pale ghosts. It's really up the GM.

 

As far as the Applicable Defense (for BOECV) goes, since the power is versus Perception, I would rule that Flash Defense would be applicable to those that have it, as a direct modifier to the Perception Roll in favor of the character seeing the images.

 

This is of course, just my own personal opinion.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Blackberry]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

The way I envisioned it, and your GM may differ, is that the ECV is to determine when someone looks at the area, whether they see the images or not.

 

If they fail that roll, they see the images, but can still have a chance of telling they are "fake" with the normal perceptions rules.

 

They have to hit me with ECV to perceive the illusion? So I can really only affect mentalists with it, and average people wouldn't stand a chance of perceiving it?

 

If their ECV roll is successful, then they get to get to subtract thier EGO roll from the total images effect, affecting the Perception modifier for them. With a high enough EGO, they can easily ignore the images pesented, maybe they appear as pale ghosts. It's really up the GM.

 

As far as the Applicable Defense (for BOECV) goes, since the power is versus Perception, I would rule that Flash Defense would be applicable to those that have it, as a direct modifier to the Perception Roll in favor of the character seeing the images.

 

The images are coming from inside their own mind. I'm not actually making light-based illusions. It's coming from inside my mind and being projected into theirs. So sunglasses won't help.

 

And it's never meant to be something where someone actually believes a rave party just appeared out of nowhere -- that's what the Mental Illusions are for. This is just a concealment.

 

 

This is of course, just my own personal opinion.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[TaxiMan]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

I believe Images' AOE defines the max size of the image. People from miles around see the image in that area. You don't need a huge AOE for people just to see the image.

 

Images does have game effects at any level, based on what the GM calls. If you make multiple images of yourself, an opponent can get confused & shoot the wrong one. However, you can't duplicate another power. If you want to be invisible, you have to buy the Power and link it to Images.

[schir1964]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

They have to hit me with ECV to perceive the illusion? So I can really only affect mentalists with it' date=' and average people wouldn't stand a chance of perceiving it?[/quote']

< Laughing > No, no. If ECV is failed, the normal rules for Perception are applied, just as described under Images, as far as perception goes. Remember, just because you may know an illusion is an illusion, doesn't mean it still doesn't look as real as the first time you see it.

 

Again, this application of BOECV to Images isn't normal. And this is just my own interpretation of how I would allow it to work. (8^D)

 

The images are coming from inside their own mind. I'm not actually making light-based illusions. It's coming from inside my mind and being projected into theirs. So sunglasses won't help.

Okay, then Flash Defense, in this case wouldn't be applicable. You'll have to decide in what manner Mental Defense would apply, or something else.

 

And it's never meant to be something where someone actually believes a rave party just appeared out of nowhere -- that's what the Mental Illusions are for. This is just a concealment.

Which is why I would rule that EGO would allow one who succeeded in thier ECV roll a chance to see through the illusion, as it were. (8^D)

 

However, exactly how you want this work is really up to you or your GM. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[sbarron]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

The mechanic for creating a field in which no one can see your character is Darkness. So I'd keep it simple and go with "Darkness 4", sight group," without any of the BOECV stuff. This power doesn't need to be that complicated.

 

Your character projects this image into everyone mind, even the minds of powerful mentalists. He mania is so great that there is no way to avoid it, regardless of mental defenses. That's the SFX of the Darkness. Given this seems to be a primary defense, you want to make it as solid a defense as possible...plus, you don't want to have to hassle with ego roles all the time if you can avoid it.

 

I might even include the other senses as well, in an effort to make anyone entering the field to feel as if they are actually at a rave. They are unable to hear anything (as the rave is so loud), feel anything (the people are pressed tightly against them), taste anyth...um...well, you get the idea .

 

Depending on how darkness works, you may get some glitchiness in when people won't see the "rave." I'd have to re-read darkness before I could think on those situations, though. Anyone have any ideas?

[zornwil]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

Sbarron, I got the impression Blackberry didn't want it to be invulnerable against the most powerful mentalists, I think he wants it to have that vulnerability. I may be wrong, of course.

 

As far as Darkness vs Images, I agree with the essence of what you say, but bear in mind that unlike normal Darkness, this does NOT prevent people from seeing through or around it, just prevents people from figuring out this one character's placement. Another character could move into the rave and, as their dress and appearance does not integrate, they'd be visible except for the degree to which it's just hard to see in there. Where Images tends to fit better is that it's a decrement to PER, which I believe is suggested by Blackberry, but if Blackberry does want imperviousness, you're correct of course. But in this case I'd put a minor limitation on the Darkness as other characters can see into and around it and probably see each other.

[sbarron]

Re: Help building a mental illusion-based invisibility

 

Sbarron' date=' I got the impression Blackberry didn't want it to be invulnerable against the most powerful mentalists, I think he wants it to have that vulnerability. I may be wrong, of course.[/quote']I was thinking as I was writing my first response that if he wanted to be vulnerable to mentalists, he could take a limit that anyone with Mental Awareness wouldn't be affected. It wouldnt' be only very powerful mentalists, but I think it fits the special effects.