"Quickened" Spells

[Tywyll]

Any ideas on how to handle Quickened Spells from DnD (as in the ability to cast two spells at once)?

 

Normally, Trigger would be the way to go since you can make an attack action a 0-phase one. However, what if they simply possessed, say as a Naked Advantage, the ability to choose to quicken a spell on the fly?

 

I am mostly curious because I am thinking of trying to convert Elven Bladesingers from 3.5, and one of their advantages is that while still fighting they can launch a spell simultaneously with their sword swinging. This would seem like a "multi-power attack" but this goes against the default rules in FH. Also, if I were to allow it as a special ability, that they can ignore that rule, how much should it cost?

 

Thoughts?

[Curufea]

Re: "Quickened" Spells

 

My thoughts are - why bother emulating D&D?

 

Why not just create linked powers?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Quickened" Spells

 

Your first impulse to make it a Trigger was probably on the right track, but the most significant piece of information necessary to answer the question was missing however -->

 

Q. What kind of Magic System are you using?

 

That will have a large effect on the answer.

[Tywyll]

Re: "Quickened" Spells

 

We are currently hashing out the magic system. I might post it when I am finished.

 

It invovles two Houses, High and Low, of magic, that each have five Mysteries or Arts within them. You cast spells pretty much in the standard fashion (gestures, Incant, RSR, etc). Bladesingers would be allowed to do gestures with their blade in hand.

 

While I don't want to immulate DND, this is a formerly DND world, and some of the characters I am transferring had the ability to cast spells while they attacked because they were Elven Bladesingers. So, I need to figure out a way to allow a similar ability.

 

The problem I see with Trigger is that you set it up ahead of time. The Quickened ability the Bladesingers had could be used at will on their spells. They didn't have to prepare it, but they had to be fighting, essentially weaving a spell with their dance-like combat maneuvers. I like the idea of it.

 

The problem with linked is they would have to pay for their melee attack, wouldn't they? Or they would have to buy linked for each of their spells. I'm trying to do this as a naked advantage or talent, since it adds to the spells they would normally know. IE, a Wizard learns how to bladedance. He already knows X spells. Suddenly, he learns the mystical ability to tie his casting in with his combat. IN hero, if I did this as linking, his spells would suddenly be cheaper. Trigger seems the way to go, but again, it requires you "set" the spell ahead of time.

 

So I am left examining Multi-power attacks, which as a default are disallowed in FH (and in general I am ok with that). If I waive that limitation for Bladesingers, how much would that cost?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Quickened" Spells

 

Are you familiar with the new rules regarding Triggers in 5ER? If not you might want to look them over -- your specific concern is addressed with Triggers that can be set as either 0 Phase Actions or Free Actions.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: "Quickened" Spells

 

Hmm... Tywyll, I don't know the specifics of this particular ability from D&D, and from your remarks I'm not sure whether you want your Quickened spellcasters to be able to cast both a ranged and a melee-based spell at the same time (which I don't think the rules allow), or if you'd be content with two spells of one category or the other.

 

If it's the latter, the new options for the Sweep Combat Maneuver, and the new Rapid Fire Maneuver for ranged combat, would allow you to make two HTH or two Ranged attacks with any type of weapon or Power. If you want this ability to be the exclusive purview of your Bladesingers, you could have them buy the Skill, Two-Weapon Fighting. Steve Long has mentioned that TWF is useful for when you want to restrict the use of these Maneuvers only to characters who have payed for them.

 

I hope that helps.

[sbarron]

Re: "Quickened" Spells

 

If it's the latter, the new options for the Sweep Combat Maneuver, and the new Rapid Fire Maneuver for ranged combat, would allow you to make two HTH or two Ranged attacks with any type of weapon or Power. If you want this ability to be the exclusive purview of your Bladesingers, you could have them buy the Skill, Two-Weapon Fighting. Steve Long has mentioned that TWF is useful for when you want to restrict the use of these Maneuvers only to characters who have payed for them.

I think this is a good idea, though I would change the name of TWF to better reflect what it is in your game. Doing it this way doesn't break the rules too bad, imposes penalites for using the ability, and costs a fair amount of points, which is good for balance purposes.

[CourtFool]

Single Attack?

 

Another, more unusual, approach would be to look at this as a singel attack, perhaps with Reduced Penetraion, with the Special Effects of a spell and sword attack. Of course the spells they want to cast at the same time might not be an attack so this probably would not work. There would also be issues because I doubt you charge your characters for weapons. I just thought this approach might be insightful.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Quickened" Spells

 

Well, on that subject, I posited a "Mixed Attack" ability a while ago that allows the use of Ranged and HtH Attacks together in a Sweep or MPA:

 

The process of designing it is here:

 

http://www.herocentral.net/readCampaignMessage.htm?messageId=326130&campaignId=301376

 

and here is the final version:

 

Mixed Attack: A Character with this Combat Skill is able to mix Ranged and HtH Attacks with Multiple Power Attacks, and to mix Ranged Attacks with HtH Attacks in conjunction with Sweep⁄Rapid Fire. For 5 points the Character may do this with a -4 OCV -4 DCV penalty. For +5 points the Character may do this with a -2 OCV -2 DCV penalty. The penalties are in addition to any of the standard penalties applicable to an MPA or Sweep⁄Rapid Fire

 

 

However, I don't think that this covers the idea of "Quickened" Spells from D&D. An appropriate Trigger is mechanically the closest match in behavior. The original posters concerns over setting the Trigger are no longer relevent after 5th Edition Revised, because Steve incorporated the changes to Trigger originally put forth in his Digital HERO article from a couple of years ago. It is now officially legal to have Triggers that get around the overt setting behavior required by previous editions of the rules.

[Tywyll]

Re: "Quickened" Spells

 

I'll have to reread that bit on triggers then. I thought even with that, setting them as a zero phase, you still set them ahead of time. But I guess if you can set it as a zero phase to go off as a zero phase action, you in effect get the net result of picking a spell and casting it on the fly as you attack someone.

 

Thanks KS.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Quickened" Spells

 

Hmmm...How about +X Speed, usable only to cast one spell in these phases if a spell was cast in the immediately preceding phase?

 

Then set X = Spellcaster's normal SPD.

 

So if he had a 2 SPD, he can cast an extra spell in Seg 9 (after his Seg 6 move) and Seg 3 (after his Seg 12 move)

 

3 SPD? Spells in 4 and 6; 8 and 10; 10 and 12.

 

4 SPD? Spells in 3 & 5, 6 & 8, 9 & 11; 12 & 2. [Here, I'd probably bend it and allow him to match 2 & 3, 5 & 6, 8 & 9 and 11 & 12]

 

5 SPD? [Heroic 5 SPD?] 3 & 4; 5 & 6; 8 & 9; 10 & 11; 12 & 2

 

6 SPD is easy.

 

7+SPD? Well, how many Heroic characters have a 7+ SPD?

 

Not precisely the same as D&D, but if I want to play D&D, I'd play D&D - not Hero!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Quickened" Spells

 

Limited SPD has always turned out to be a mistake in my experience.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Quickened" Spells

 

I'll have to reread that bit on triggers then. I thought even with that, setting them as a zero phase, you still set them ahead of time. But I guess if you can set it as a zero phase to go off as a zero phase action, you in effect get the net result of picking a spell and casting it on the fly as you attack someone.

 

Thanks KS.

 

No problem!