Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

[Guest Black Lotus]

All right, another simple question. I've been ignoring this until now, but I figured I'd bring it up and see what everyone else thought about it.

 

Ambidexterity is a 1- to 3-point Talent that offsets the default -3 penalty for using an off-hand to do ANYTHING -- attack, use a skill, make a Characteristic roll with your off hand (for example, a righty grabbing a ledge with his left hand to catch a fall). This is useful in and of itself, of course.

 

But let's consider Two-Weapon Fighting. If you purchase both Ambidexterity (at full 3-point strength) and Two-Weapon Fighting, some of the utility of Ambidexterity (or Two-Weapon Fighting, take your pick) is lost -- that is, the fact that Ambidexterity already negates the -3 penalty for using your off hand to attack, which is one of the benefits of Two-Weapon Fighting (or vice versa). My idea is to give a 1-Character point rebate when purchasing Two-Weapon Fighting if the character already has Ambidexterity at its highest level.

 

Too crunchy? Too anal?

 

Well, that's why I started a post here for your feedback!

[Zed-F]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

How often do you really make use of ambidexterity anyway? You don't need it to sweep, rapid fire, or MPA for two attacks at no penalty for off-handedness. My copy of FREd says it costs 3 points per level or 9 points to remove the penalty entirely, which is way too much. They may have reduced the cost in 5ER though. I'd say go ahead and give the rebate.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

I'm pretty sure it's 1 point for +1, 2 points for +2, and 3 points to reduce off-hand penalties entirely for Ambidexterity.

 

Yeah, a 1-point rebate sounds good.

 

Well, Ambidexterity CAN be useful (for say, disarming a trap with one hand while simultaneously picking a lock, which I would allow if it made dramatic sense -- though I'd still apply some sort of penalty to both actions, just not the extra -3 to the off hand). It's good for a number of other things, as well (remember The Princess Bride)?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

No, Ambidexterity is 3pts/level.. Full Ambidexterity is 9 points. I don't have Revised so I can't point to that page reference, so here's the FREd reference: pg62.

 

Two Weapon fighting allows you to ignore Penalties when, AND ONLY WHEN, wielding the two defined weapons at once (hand-to-hand or ranged). If you have only one of those on hand you either use your Good Hand or suffer a penalty for your Off hand. If you good hand is impaired preventing you from Dual Wielding then you incur Off Hand penalties as normal.

 

Ambidexterity, by contrast, allows you to counteract penalties for your offhand at all times. If your Good Hand is blown off or impaired you can still use a weapon/attack in your Off Hand with no penalty. Though while this eliminates the Off Hand penalties you still incur the two-attack penalty if you do that.

 

Also, there is the intent behind the two. Two Weapon fighting is primarily aimed at Heroic Campaigns while Ambidexterity tends to have slightly more universal application.

 

The usefulness of either is entirely in gameplay however, if you never had impaired limbs then likely you'll never incur off hand penalties. If dual wielding weapons doesn't fit genre then you'll likely never see it in that game.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

No' date=' Ambidexterity is 3pts/level.. Full Ambidexterity is 9 points. I don't have Revised so I can't point to that page reference, so here's the FREd reference: pg62.[/quote']

 

Just because I can....

5ER page 87.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

If a character buys full Ambidexterity I don't require them to buy Two-Weapon Fighting at all. They can make a straight purchase of the the CSLs with Sweep that form the rest of the Two-Weapon Fighting mechanics. As an exception to the rule that Limitations can only be bought on 5-point CSLs and above, I allow a -1/4 Limitation: "Only When Using Multiple Weapons in the Sweep" (this brings the cost of +2 with Sweep down from 4 to 3 points). Note that if a -1/4 Limitation were taken on the combination of full Ambidexterity and +2 CSLs with Sweep (9+4 = 13 points), it would come to a Real Cost of 10, which is exactly the cost of Two-Weapon Fighting.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

If a character buys full Ambidexterity I don't require them to buy Two-Weapon Fighting at all. They can make a straight purchase of the the CSLs with Sweep that form the rest of the Two-Weapon Fighting mechanics. As an exception to the rule that Limitations can only be bought on 5-point CSLs and above' date=' I allow a -1/4 Limitation: "Only When Using Multiple Weapons in the Sweep" (this brings the cost of +2 with Sweep down from 4 to 3 points). Note that if a -1/4 Limitation were taken on the combination of full Ambidexterity and +2 CSLs with Sweep (9+4 = 13 points), it would come to a Real Cost of 10, which is exactly the cost of Two-Weapon Fighting.[/quote']

 

Ah, but Ambidexterity applies to all actions performed with the off-hand, not just attacks (which is where that missing -1/4 Limitation comes from, I suppose).

 

Also, taking CSL doesn't QUITE live up to Two-Weapon Fighting. For one thing, TW Fighting covers either all Ranged or all HTH attacks. That's at least, what, two 5-point CSLs just for the +2 OCV to all ranged or HTH? A 3-point CSL only covers a "tight group" of related attacks (aka Pistols, Karate). That's a bit better than Two Weapon Fighting (which only negates the first -2 OCV modifier on the second attack, while with the CSLs you get (essentially) an extra +2 OCV on your first attack, to boot). Also, CSLs don't cover the "flat -2 to DCV instead of halving DCV" while using Sweep or Rapid Fire provided by TW Fighting.

 

Not quite the same, as far as I can tell. I guess you CAN build TW Fighting around a pre-existing Ambideterity, but it seems impossible to match its effects (or cost) exactly.

[Greg]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

2-weapon fighting is built using ambidexterity so you'd probably need to reverse engineer it a bit to refund some points. On the other hand, 2-weapon fighting is better than straight ambidexterity and sweep PSLs because even if you miss with your main weapon you'd still be able to follow-up with your off-hand one. You're also not at half DCV.

[sbarron]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

Well' date=' Ambidexterity CAN be useful (for say, disarming a trap with one hand while simultaneously picking a lock, which I would allow if it made dramatic sense -- though I'd still apply some sort of penalty to both actions, just not the extra -3 to the off hand). It's good for a number of other things, as well (remember [i']The Princess Bride[/i])?

Neither Inigo Montoya nor Westley had ambidexterity. As you will recall, both were better with their dominate hand than they were with their off hand. So unless they purchased levels as (-0) Only when using dominate hand, they were clearly not ambidextrous.

[Vanguard]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

FYI, Ambidexterity doesn't allow you to make multiple attacks in the same phase. Just lets you use your off hand at no penalty if/when you do attack.

 

Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to make, essentially, 2 attacks in one phase.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

FYI, Ambidexterity doesn't allow you to make multiple attacks in the same phase. Just lets you use your off hand at no penalty if/when you do attack.

 

Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to make, essentially, 2 attacks in one phase.

 

Well, actually, the rules allow for you to use two weapons to attack simultaneously. It falls under the "using multiple Powers to attack" category -- when holding two similar or identical weapons, one in each hand. I forget where that is in FREd, but it is there -- and a lot of the leeway on that is left to the GM's discretion.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

Neither Inigo Montoya nor Westley had ambidexterity. As you will recall' date=' both were better with their dominate hand than they were with their off hand. So unless they purchased levels as (-0) [i']Only when using dominate hand[/i], they were clearly not ambidextrous.

 

 

I wasn't assuming they had full Ambidexterity; maybe +1 or +2. While they were better with their dominant hands, they were also quite good with their off-hands. I was using it more as an example of how it could be useful than anything else (I might give a small bonus to OCV if a player character suddenly changes hands on his opponent).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

This was one of the first questions brought up after the release of the 5th edition.

 

In general, Two Weapon Fighting is included for those GM's who don't normally use Sweep or Rapid Fire in their games, but don't mind a character with specialized training to have this skill/ability.

 

For those GM's who do use Sweep and Rapid Fire, characters with Ambidexterity don't really need to purchase Two Weapon Fighting...just 2pt Combat Skill Levels to remove the penalty for multiple attacks...though characters who don't have Ambidexterity could purchase Two Weapon Fighting as normal.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

it all depends on the concept you want for your character honestly.

 

The only character I have built with two weapon fighting (posted on the boards as Ekatrina) also had rapid attack and plenty of csls. (not to mention power claws, find weakness, and a dex roll activated damage reduction)

 

Her kilrathis esq design wasn't supposed to be ambidextrous for the most part, but she was supposed to be an efficient fighter.

 

If you want your character to be both, I don't see a problem with taking both. The overlap really doesn't really shotself much at all. I mean, TWF doesn't let you do anythign but attack and sweep at no penalty for using both hands, and ambidex would give you the option to use either hand at any time, but would not give you much of an edge in battle. if you want to credit back a point, go ahead. But I'm not sure it's neccisary.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

it all depends on the concept you want for your character honestly.

 

This is the ultimate answer here.

 

I have a character who is ambidextrous, they are a sniper and are able to shoot equally well with either hand. But they never have, and never will, wield two weapons at once. This character has Ambidexterity.

 

I have a duelist who uses a Rapier and Main Gauche in combat, having specifically trained with both and their balance in combat partially relies on having a weapon in each hand. their just not an effective fight with a rapier in their left hand and nothing else. This character has Two Weapon Fighting.

 

Conceptually the characters have the right Skill/Talent, mechanics wise there is a difference. But mechanics should not dictate how a character is built any more than it absolutely has to.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

Ah, but Ambidexterity applies to all actions performed with the off-hand, not just attacks (which is where that missing -1/4 Limitation comes from, I suppose).

 

Also, taking CSL doesn't QUITE live up to Two-Weapon Fighting. For one thing, TW Fighting covers either all Ranged or all HTH attacks. That's at least, what, two 5-point CSLs just for the +2 OCV to all ranged or HTH? A 3-point CSL only covers a "tight group" of related attacks (aka Pistols, Karate). That's a bit better than Two Weapon Fighting (which only negates the first -2 OCV modifier on the second attack, while with the CSLs you get (essentially) an extra +2 OCV on your first attack, to boot). Also, CSLs don't cover the "flat -2 to DCV instead of halving DCV" while using Sweep or Rapid Fire provided by TW Fighting.

 

Not quite the same, as far as I can tell. I guess you CAN build TW Fighting around a pre-existing Ambideterity, but it seems impossible to match its effects (or cost) exactly.

"Even in campaigns that don't use the Rapid Fire and/or Sweep Optional Combat Maneuvers, GMs should allow characters to use these Maneuvers when they use Two-Weapon Fighting" (5ER p. 73). So you are indeed using one of those maneuvers. The OCV bonus doesn't have to be bought for all HTH or Ranged combat. They can be bought for the Sweep or Rapid Fire maneuver, which is only a 2-point CSL.

 

As for the reduction of the 1/2 DCV penalty to the flat -2 one, I don't like this. There is no standard way to eliminate or reduce a halving of DCV in the system; we are instead forced to do things like buy doubled DCV CSLs with Limitations for, "Only When ...." This needs to be fixed in general. For now, I would really have preferred this aspect of Two-Weapon Fighting to have remained optional, as it was before Revised. In any case, there should be some provision for the same effect by characters who use the straight Sweep or Rapid Fire Maneuvers. Perhaps something like, "if a character uses all different Powers or weapons for the attacks in the Rapid Fire/Sweep, the penalty may be reduced from 1/2 DCV to a flat -2 DCV at the GM's option."

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

"Even in campaigns that don't use the Rapid Fire and/or Sweep Optional Combat Maneuvers' date=' GMs should allow characters to use these Maneuvers when they use Two-Weapon Fighting" (5ER p. 73). So you are indeed using one of those maneuvers. The OCV bonus doesn't have to be bought for all HTH or Ranged combat. They can be bought for the Sweep or Rapid Fire [i']maneuver[/i], which is only a 2-point CSL.

 

You can use Two-Weapon Fighting without having to also use Rapid Fire or Sweep. You'll only be able to attack once with each weapon, though, naturally.

[Vanguard]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

Well' date=' actually, the rules allow for you to use two weapons to attack simultaneously. It falls under the "using multiple Powers to attack" category -- when holding two similar or identical weapons, one in each hand. I forget where that is in FREd, but it is there -- and a lot of the leeway on that is left to the GM's discretion.[/quote']

 

Ah-ha. I knew something like that would come back and haunt me. I forgot all about the multiple power attack that 5th added.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

You can use Two-Weapon Fighting without having to also use Rapid Fire or Sweep. You'll only be able to attack once with each weapon' date=' though, naturally.[/quote']

I'll have to add to my quote, I see:

Two-Weapon Fighting is the ability to use the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire or Sweep (see pages 396, 397), combined with a limited form of the Talent Ambidexterity, in an improved manner. It provides the following benefits:

 

-- even in campaigns that don't use the Rapid Fire and/or Sweep Optional Combat Maneuvers, GMs should allow characters to use those Maneuvers when the use Two-Weapon Fighting

 

-- in campaigns that allow all characters to use the Rapid Fire and/or Sweep Optional Combat Maneuvers, a character using Two-Weapon Fighting only suffers a -2 DCV....

So no you cannot use Two-Weapon Fighting without having to also use Rapid Fire or Sweep. Two-Weapon Fighting is, by its very nature, a form of one of those Maneuvers.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

I'll have to add to my quote, I see:

 

So no you cannot use Two-Weapon Fighting without having to also use Rapid Fire or Sweep. Two-Weapon Fighting is, by its very nature, a form of one of those Maneuvers.

 

You're wrong. Any character with two similar or identical weapons, one in each hand, may attack with both of them simultaneously, as a single attack action. For example, someone holding two pistols may attack with both of them, without needing Two-Weapon Fighting or Ambidexterity (though they would help, and of course you'll still suffer a -3 off hand penalty). Any character can do this (at the GMs discretion -- Heroic campaigns differ from Supers campaigns), and you can use Two-Weapon Fighting when making two simultaneous attacks, to offset the normal -3 OCV penalty for your off hand.

 

In fact, many different Powers can be used simultaneously. When I rediscover which page of 5ER covers this, I'll let you know.

 

EDIT: Go back and read Vanguard's last post; he knows what I'm talking about.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

You're wrong. Any character with two similar or identical weapons, one in each hand, may attack with both of them simultaneously, as a single attack action. For example, someone holding two pistols may attack with both of them, without needing Two-Weapon Fighting or Ambidexterity (though they would help, and of course you'll still suffer a -3 off hand penalty). Any character can do this (at the GMs discretion -- Heroic campaigns differ from Supers campaigns), and you can use Two-Weapon Fighting when making two simultaneous attacks, to offset the normal -3 OCV penalty for your off hand.

 

In fact, many different Powers can be used simultaneously. When I rediscover which page of 5ER covers this, I'll let you know.

 

EDIT: Go back and read Vanguard's last post; he knows what I'm talking about.

 

Two Weapon fighting explicitely states that it allows a character to use Rapid Fire or Sweep without the first penalty of either.

 

if you are using 2-WpnFtg with Ranged Attacks you are doing a Rapid Fire Maneuver without the penalties incured for the two shots. If you are using 2-WpnFtg with Hand-to-Hand attacks you are doing a Sweep Maneuver without the penalities incured for the two attacks.

 

In either case you may choose the same target or different targets for each of the two attacks. For Ranged the targets must be in a 180 degree arc of your line of fire and for Hand-to-Hand the targets must be in adjacent hexes.

 

Multiple Power Attacks, on the other hand, allow you to make two attacks ON THE SAME TARGET ONLY and the two attacks have to use the same kind of attack roll (Ranged or Hand-To-Hand) and any CSLs you have must be able to apply to BOTH attacks or they can't be used.

 

Two-Weapon fighting is a little more flexible in application than a simple Multiple Power Attack sine you may spread the attacks out.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

Two Weapon fighting explicitely states that it allows a character to use Rapid Fire or Sweep without the first penalty of either.

 

if you are using 2-WpnFtg with Ranged Attacks you are doing a Rapid Fire Maneuver without the penalties incured for the two shots. If you are using 2-WpnFtg with Hand-to-Hand attacks you are doing a Sweep Maneuver without the penalities incured for the two attacks.

 

In either case you may choose the same target or different targets for each of the two attacks. For Ranged the targets must be in a 180 degree arc of your line of fire and for Hand-to-Hand the targets must be in adjacent hexes.

 

Multiple Power Attacks, on the other hand, allow you to make two attacks ON THE SAME TARGET ONLY and the two attacks have to use the same kind of attack roll (Ranged or Hand-To-Hand) and any CSLs you have must be able to apply to BOTH attacks or they can't be used.

 

Two-Weapon fighting is a little more flexible in application than a simple Multiple Power Attack sine you may spread the attacks out.

 

All I'm saying is that Two-Weapon Fighting isn't a form of Sweep or Rapid Fire, because its bonuses will also apply when using a Multiple Power Attack -- OR a single attack! If you attack with your off hand just once -- one attack with one weapon -- Two Weapon Fighting still gives you that +3 to your off hand penalty when attacking.

 

If it were simply a form of Sweep or Rapid Fire, the +3 off hand bonus would only apply when using Sweep or Rapid Fire, and as it is written, it applies at all times. After all, if TWF makes it easier to attack with a weapon in each hand, it also makes it easier to attack with a single weapon in the off-hand.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

All I'm saying is that Two-Weapon Fighting isn't a form of Sweep or Rapid Fire, because its bonuses will also apply when using a Multiple Power Attack -- OR a single attack! If you attack with your off hand just once -- one attack with one weapon -- Two Weapon Fighting still gives you that +3 to your off hand penalty when attacking.

 

If it were simply a form of Sweep or Rapid Fire, the +3 off hand bonus would only apply when using Sweep or Rapid Fire, and as it is written, it applies at all times. After all, if TWF makes it easier to attack with a weapon in each hand, it also makes it easier to attack with a single weapon in the off-hand.

 

That's not how I'm reading it... I hate to quote the book but...

 

"Two Weapon Fighting is the ability to use the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire or Sweep, combinded with a limited form of the Ambidexterity, in an improved manner."

 

Take out the comma per English Grammar rules you get:

"Two Weapon Fighting is the ability to use the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire or Sweep in an improved manner."

 

Seems pretty clear to me - you are making two or more attacks in a phase in which you are using Two Weapon Fighting - you don't get to cancel the Off-Hand Penalty by just weilding the second weapon - you have to use it.

 

Off-Hand Penalties apply to a person without Ambidexterity regardless of what they hold in their second hand UNLESS they have Two-Weapon Fighting AND use both weapons in one phase to attack.

 

So no, you can' negate the OHP of a second weapon by purchasing TWP and holding two weapons - you actually have to use the maneuver.

 

Unless the wording has changed drastically in 5ER. in which case you can ignore me.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

That's not how I'm reading it... I hate to quote the book but...

 

"Two Weapon Fighting is the ability to use the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire or Sweep, combinded with a limited form of the Ambidexterity, in an improved manner."

 

Take out the comma per English Grammar rules you get:

"Two Weapon Fighting is the ability to use the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire or Sweep in an improved manner."

 

Seems pretty clear to me - you are making two or more attacks in a phase in which you are using Two Weapon Fighting - you don't get to cancel the Off-Hand Penalty by just weilding the second weapon - you have to use it.

 

Off-Hand Penalties apply to a person without Ambidexterity regardless of what they hold in their second hand UNLESS they have Two-Weapon Fighting AND use both weapons in one phase to attack.

 

So no, you can' negate the OHP of a second weapon by purchasing TWP and holding two weapons - you actually have to use the maneuver.

 

Unless the wording has changed drastically in 5ER. in which case you can ignore me.

 

The logic I'm using is simple: attacking with a single weapon in your off-hand is less effective than than attacking with a weapon in each hand, assuming you have Two-Weapon Fighting. Why, then, would you reassign the +3 off-hand bonus to the off hand when a character attacks with just one hand?

Wouldn't make any sense. I don't know how you'd do it, but I'm sure I'd allow a character with Two-Weapon Fighting to make single attacks with his off hand at no off-hand penalty.

 

Otherwise, he could just put a knife in the other hand a not use it. You see where I'm going with this? A "persistent" bonus of Two-Weapon Fighting, logically, is that you never have to deal with the -3 off-hand penalty when using your off hand to attack. (With either ranged or HTH weapons, or both, depending on what was bought).

 

To put it yet another way, if a character can learn to use his good hand and his off-hand together with equal effectiveness -- which is hard -- he's already, by default, learned to use his off hand to attack as effectively as he can with his good hand, regardless of whether he's attacking with both of them or not.

 

Also, I'm not sure if that's 5ER's wording or not; I'll have to check later.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity

 

the special effect of sweeping or using rapid fire with the two weapon fighting rule is that you use both weapons. I "sweep" him with my double blade attack by using both of my blades rather than one of my blades twice.

 

Since most weapons are considered "equipment" they also don't usually fall under a multiple power attack.