Walking On The Sun

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

It really isn't about all the Body of an attack it is about the STUN. Chris Goodwin wrote a post about an invulnerability variant using the TAKES NO STUN rules that really made sense (IMO). Damage Reduction is a great tool, but it only reduces the amount of damage you take by so much.

 

In many genres (Dungeons and Dragons FOREX) some characters are like you say immune to one or at most two types of attacks (Blue Dragons are immune to electricity, Oozes are immune to polymorph spells). HERO needs to embrace the idea of absolutes. More importantly the system needs a absolute that will not break the character bank, because what ever games you run (500+ points), Fox1 runs (pointless), or I run (410 points) most Players are in the 350 points or less bracket. And the ability has to be affordable in those arenas.

 

Hawksmoor

 

While I can understand what you want here, I'dd unfortunately have to say I'd never allow an absolute invulnerability for as cheap as 100 points.

 

Infact, I don't think I'd ever allow a character that was invulnerable to everything in one fo my games, not even as an NPC. Not because it shouldn't, isn't, or can't be done, but because having a character that never has to worry about damage or stun from just about everything takes away from the GM's ability to influence Player actions. A lot of players will not think things through if they can't get hurt. They'll just jump off buildinggs or run head first at an opponent. Which is ok for a brick everyonece and awhile...but for most characters is rediculous.

 

I'm worried that if such an absolute and useful ability becomes too cost effective, I'll have to spend a lot more time policing my Player's characters builds. Is it ok for the Invulnerable unstunnable mentalist to hae a disadvantage that if you can stun him it turns off his mental powers? Not really...but maybe.

 

Personally, I'm fine with 350 for invulnerability. At 400 points that should be most of your stick. The points system is based on utility right? That's one of the most useful and broad based powers. And it helps negate all attacks and even environmental or situational damage. 100 points IMO is too cheap.

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

So if we are going to rubbersheet the physics enough to create a stellar surface that can be walked on' date=' why should 16 points of life support enabling you to survive the expierence be a deal breaker for so many people?[/quote']

Probably because Solarman's 1d6 rka solar blast will kill the character with no resistant defense who can live in the sun with his 16 points of life support.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

So if we are going to rubbersheet the physics enough to create a stellar surface that can be walked on, why should 16 points of life support enabling you to survive the expierence be a deal breaker for so many people?

 

that's a very good point. As far as I'm concerned it will never really coe up much anyway, it's not a useful power to walk on the sun. Walking on the sun does not automatically mean you have high endurance or defenses either.

 

Unless your special effect is that you just have so much defense and resistance to be able to actually walk on the sun you shouldn't need to buy any of that either.

 

Points for utility...16 IMO is ok for an ability that will most likely only be used once.

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Personally' date=' I'm fine with 350 for invulnerability. At 400 points that should be most of your stick. The points system is based on utility right? That's one of the most useful and broad based powers. And it helps negate all attacks and even environmental or situational damage. 100 points IMO is too cheap.[/quote']

Actually that was just for pd. If you wanted ed invulnerability too you need to spend another 350 points.

 

I think what Hawksmoor is saying, in part, is that there need to be a cheaper way to buy invulnerability for various things. A 2d6 bullet can have damage ranging from 2 to 60 stun. If you want a character who is invulnerable to bullets you shouldn't need to buy +60 armor, hardened, bullet's only just to achieve one simple effect that every other game system can do [and what if someone wants to buy a 3d6 bullet? Now your invulnerability doesn't work!].

 

The game does need some way of introducing simple invulnerability without needing abstracts such as desolid and affects real world [and without needing to cost the character most of his points]. A 350 point starting character should be considered tough and inspiring. He should not need to be 650 in order to be immune to certain things within concept.

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

that's a very good point. As far as I'm concerned it will never really coe up much anyway, it's not a useful power to walk on the sun. Walking on the sun does not automatically mean you have high endurance or defenses either.

 

Unless your special effect is that you just have so much defense and resistance to be able to actually walk on the sun you shouldn't need to buy any of that either.

 

Points for utility...16 IMO is ok for an ability that will most likely only be used once.

How many times will a character run into a burning building, yet he has immune to high heat? You can't just look at the extreme [sun] example. Characters will run into burning buildings, nuclear reactors to fix the rods, artic freezers, etc. The game needs something to make you understand why he can do that but not survive an attack from Freon.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Probably because Solarman's 1d6 rka solar blast will kill the character with no resistant defense who can live in the sun with his 16 points of life support.

 

well, that depends on SFX. If my character can walk on the sun then somewhere along the lines he should have gotten a power that relates to the reason.

 

If not, well...then I guess he wasn't thought through very well.

 

I have issues with the life support in Hero...but for a supers game I'd allow it.

Especially if the player wants that idocincracy.

 

For a fantasy/sci-fi game..maybe not.

 

It also depends on how the GM wants to handle it.

I gave my fire dragons 100% DR fire as a racial ability. I don't care what fire you throw at them, they will not take damage. And even then, as they are my dragons, they can not live in the sun. Because they have 100% DR fire class 2, and the sun is class 4 (I have a 4 tier temperature setting for both fire and cold) If you threw a fire attack at level 3 at them, they would effectively drop thier DR to 75%, and in the sun they would take half damage.

 

But house rules only go so far =P

 

I'm not sure what the best way to deal with invulnerability is..but it's a very shaky topic for me.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

How many times will a character run into a burning building' date=' yet he has immune to high heat? You can't just look at the extreme [sun'] example. Characters will run into burning buildings, nuclear reactors to fix the rods, artic freezers, etc. The game needs something to make you understand why he can do that but not survive an attack from Freon.

 

unfortunately it's one of the many thigns we have resorted to house rules for...

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

unfortunately it's one of the many thigns we have resorted to house rules for...

Yeah, me too, and I hate that.

[Cancer]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Danger, WIll Robinson, Danger! Stellar atmosphere geek in maximum geek-out mode!

 

Depending on where you are -- if you blunder into a sunspot, in particular -- you may need protection against strong magnetic fields as well. The strength of the high-energy particle bombardment (one part of the "radiation") is tightly correlated with the local magnetic field strength.

 

Part of the issue is that the Sun doesn't have a surface; it's gaseous throughout, so defining what you mean by "surface" pins down the physical conditions you have to protect against. The temperature is characterized at 5770 Kelvin, but it varies with height. The gravity isn't that big a deal, only about 20 times that of Earth's surface (and that's constant through the area in question). The gas pressure depends on the altitude ... high up it's vacuum, deep in it's rather high.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Danger' date=' WIll Robinson, Danger! Stellar atmosphere geek in maximum geek-out mode![/i']

 

Depending on where you are -- if you blunder into a sunspot, in particular -- you may need protection against strong magnetic fields as well. The strength of the high-energy particle bombardment (one part of the "radiation") is tightly correlated with the local magnetic field strength.

 

Part of the issue is that the Sun doesn't have a surface; it's gaseous throughout, so defining what you mean by "surface" pins down the physical conditions you have to protect against. The temperature is characterized at 5770 Kelvin, but it varies with height. The gravity isn't that big a deal, only about 20 times that of Earth's surface (and that's constant through the area in question). The gas pressure depends on the altitude ... high up it's vacuum, deep in it's rather high.

 

So yeah it's the weather, but at least it's a dry heat.

 

Hawksmoor

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

So yeah it's the weather, but at least it's a dry heat.

 

Hawksmoor

 

heh...so can I wear long sleves and still be comfy?

[OddHat]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Danger' date=' WIll Robinson, Danger! Stellar atmosphere geek in maximum geek-out mode![/i']

 

Depending on where you are -- if you blunder into a sunspot, in particular -- you may need protection against strong magnetic fields as well. The strength of the high-energy particle bombardment (one part of the "radiation") is tightly correlated with the local magnetic field strength.

 

Part of the issue is that the Sun doesn't have a surface; it's gaseous throughout, so defining what you mean by "surface" pins down the physical conditions you have to protect against. The temperature is characterized at 5770 Kelvin, but it varies with height. The gravity isn't that big a deal, only about 20 times that of Earth's surface (and that's constant through the area in question). The gas pressure depends on the altitude ... high up it's vacuum, deep in it's rather high.

 

All of which is why you should just buy 16 points of LifeSupport, Desolidification and Flight, and be done with it. THis is so far into the cinematic that you're much better off with a power that says "Can Ignore Physics".

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

All of which is why you should just buy 16 points of LifeSupport' date=' Desolidification and Flight, and be done with it. THis is so far into the cinematic that you're much better off with a power that says "Can Ignore Physics".[/quote']

 

Very true very true.

 

Speaking of Ignoring physics...

Anyone for Nonnuclidian Geometry man?!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

In many genres (Dungeons and Dragons FOREX) some characters are like you say immune to one or at most two types of attacks (Blue Dragons are immune to electricity' date=' Oozes are immune to polymorph spells). HERO needs to embrace the idea of absolutes. [/quote']

 

This is a resistant topic - nothing seems to kill it!

 

I think that fantasy is the one genre where you actually get absolute immunities. I'm not sure that HERO needs to embrace the idea of absolutes to accommodate fantasy but there may be an argument for Fantasy Hero discussing this kind of trope.

 

I personally think that Steve's 350 pointer does that but I would possibly leave it for those particular Fantasy Hero things.

 

More importantly the system needs a absolute that will not break the character bank' date=' because what ever games you run (500+ points), Fox1 runs (pointless), or I run (410 points) most Players are in the 350 points or less bracket. And the ability has to be affordable in those arenas. [/quote']

 

And here is where we diverge. I see no need for these to be affordable to characters. Very few characters are immune to anything unless there is artifacts, spells involved. In those cases the limitations that can be applied to make things affordable are available for use.

 

Even with spells you find the genre providing examples of where people believed themselves to be invulnerable being overwhelmed by more powerful magic, which means they were never invulnerable in the first place - just functionally invulnerable until that moment.

 

In my Union of Outstanding Companions game my players have no mechanics infront of them just the stats that vary like END/STUN/BODY

 

One of the characters has a power description that sounds very much like invulnerability (all of the scrapes he has ever been in including some airplane crashes have resulted in nothing more than simple cuts and bruises). The player who went for that character played him as invulnerable and it worked. he was amazed to find out that his invulnerability was no more than 13 rPD/rED.

 

I think it is all a matter of perception.

 

I also think that it is a mistake in a system like HERO to think that an ability should be covered by one power on its own. If a character wants to be able to Walk on the Sun then the GM should be ensuring that their power set allows them to cope with the environmental aspects of that as well as the more fundamental side benefits such as the rED and STR to deal with the tidal solar blasts of the various light and sun based opponents that they may face.

 

 

Doc

[Cancer]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

All of which is why you should just buy 16 points of LifeSupport' date=' Desolidification and Flight, and be done with it. THis is so far into the cinematic that you're much better off with a power that says "Can Ignore Physics".[/quote']

 

Amen. But I was at huge minuses to my EGO roll to resist the temptation for a maximum geek-out episode.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Actually that was just for pd. If you wanted ed invulnerability too you need to spend another 350 points.

 

I think what Hawksmoor is saying, in part, is that there need to be a cheaper way to buy invulnerability for various things. A 2d6 bullet can have damage ranging from 2 to 60 stun. If you want a character who is invulnerable to bullets you shouldn't need to buy +60 armor, hardened, bullet's only just to achieve one simple effect that every other game system can do [and what if someone wants to buy a 3d6 bullet? Now your invulnerability doesn't work!].

 

The game does need some way of introducing simple invulnerability without needing abstracts such as desolid and affects real world [and without needing to cost the character most of his points]. A 350 point starting character should be considered tough and inspiring. He should not need to be 650 in order to be immune to certain things within concept.

 

ah well all the better I know what he's looking for but I don't have to like it much.

 

Though, IMO you can effectively double your body, stun, and reduce your chance of beign stunned by buying 50% DR. Better yet, you can get 75% DR and tie it to a con roll. you'll take a little bit of stun after your defenses, so you'll know that "oh something hit me" but it wont be all that bad.

 

High defenses and Damage reduction come very close to simulating invulnerability. And they are cost effective when you give them appropriate limitations (like requires a con roll on the DR, or Dex roll if you're more speed based)

 

I'm still not sure though, exactly what is the best course of action for inexpensive Invulnerability other than that. I'm not a big fan of using desolid only to avoid X, unless the SFX calls for it (like becoming a shadow so it passes through or what not)

[OddHat]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I'm still not sure though, exactly what is the best course of action for inexpensive Invulnerability other than that. I'm not a big fan of using desolid only to avoid X, unless the SFX calls for it (like becoming a shadow so it passes through or what not)

 

That's easy. You create a custom power, called "Invulnerability to X". You price it at 40 points, and by default it only works against one narrow special effect (Fire, Bullets, Cheese, Button Mushrooms).

 

The fact that the point cost is the same as the Desolidification approach is just a coincidence.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

That's easy. You create a custom power, called "Invulnerability to X". You price it at 40 points, and by default it only works against one narrow special effect (Fire, Bullets, Cheese, Button Mushrooms).

 

The fact that the point cost is the same as the Desolidification approach is just a coincidence.

 

Rofl, ha ha good one.

 

Well, that's about how much the build I use costs.

120 AP 100% Damage Reduction + mandatory narrow focus

120 AP !00% Damage Reduction only verses fire SFX (heat level 2) -3 = 40 RC

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I've seen several mentions on this thread of Steve Long having designed a 350 pt. Invulnerability Power or construct. I'm afraid I missed that - could someone please point me to it?

 

I'm not certain what so many people find objectionable about using a Limited Desolid to give a character invulnerability to certain things, unless it's an esthetic issue, that it doesn't "feel" right to use it. For my part I've applied it on several occasions since 5E came out. It's cheap, legal and does what's needed.

 

I often hear the objection, "Affects Desolid attacks still hurt you." To my mind, if the rulebook suggests that the GM can waive the requirement that the character buy "Affects Physical World" when using very limited Desolid, there's more than enough precedent to say that Affects Desolid attacks with the SFX that Desolid was bought against are no more effective than any other such attacks.

 

Perhaps it's the name, Desolid, that makes people uncomfortable - the idea that you have to "become a shadow" or some other ghostly form, as Onyxclaw put it. For my part I don't feel confined by the name, any more than I feel that an Energy Blast has to be energy. I once played a character who was such a master of defensive combat that he was virtually impossible to hit, and used Desolid for that (didn't work vs. Area Of Effect attacks). Ultimately it comes down to SFX. For example, the talent Combat Luck is based on the Armor Power, but the SFX of it is that the attack actually missed the target or "just grazed" it. That has nothing to do with what Armor does; Armor stops damage. But how Armor works in game is just a mechanic - it can look however you want.

 

Let me add that I respect the opinions of people who want to achieve an Invulnerability effect through another mechanic, because they would prefer to do so. Finding the way to do something that feels best to you is one of the joys of a flexible system like HERO. I do think it's unfair when some people say that HERO can't do Invulnerability, or that the Desolid approach is a "kludge." That's a subjective value judgement that's far from universal. You may not like the official way that the system does it - and that's fair - but it can do it.

 

All that being said, I've also seen the common house rule of extending Damage Reduction to 100% for 120 points used in game. When Limited to a particular type of attack it wasn't unbalancing, and the price seemed reasonable.

[OddHat]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Lord Liaden again.

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

100% damage reduction is in Digital Hero #28. I was incorrect on the cost. Normal 100% DR is 320 points and resistant is 480 points.

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I don't care to use desolid for invulnerability for several reasons. The firsts is desolid is the power to make you intangible. That's its power. You wouldn't use energy blast to drain someone just becasue they both subract stun. So from that aspect it's a stretch. The second reason is that it requires a rules exception. I hate any aspect of the game which requires an exception in order to make it work. If the construct needs an exception then you might as well just make a new power which doesn't require and exception. Finally I find the build to be clumsy:

 

Desolidification, Reduced Endurance: 0 end: +1/2, Persistent: +1/2, Invisible (to all senses): +1, Always On, Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects: -1/2, Fire Only: -1/2. Total Cost: 48 points.

 

Why do I need to use 5 lines on a character sheet when I can just write: Invulnerability to fire: 50 points.

 

A simple power description doesn't really need 150 letters, does it?

[sbarron]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I do think it's unfair when some people say that HERO can't do Invulnerability' date=' or that the Desolid approach is a "kludge." That's a subjective value judgement that's far from universal. You may not like the official way that the system does it - and that's fair - but it can do it.[/quote']Just using regular defenses is another way to acheive invulnerability in HERO. 120 PD/24 rPD makes you "invunerable" to physical attacks in 60 AP games. Bullets totally bounce at what, about 90 PD/18 rPD (assuming 3D6K and you don't use hit locations), making you effectively invulnerable to buttets. So if a character had say 200 PD/40 rPD, they'd be immune to almost all known physical damage in most campaigns.

 

Granted, using the defense levels above against fire can create problems. So a character is immune to normal fires, and even furnaces. Can he survive on the sun? A nuclear blast? No, probably not. I don't have a problem with "invulnerabilities" having limits...but it's true, that's not like DnD.

 

Hero lets you buy immunity. But you must first define the upper limit of the damage that can done by the thing to which something is immune. Then buy appropriate defenses. I guess most people don't do that, so there is the problem. Not the system.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I don't care to use desolid for invulnerability for several reasons. The firsts is desolid is the power to make you intangible. That's its power. You wouldn't use energy blast to drain someone just becasue they both subract stun. So from that aspect it's a stretch. The second reason is that it requires a rules exception. I hate any aspect of the game which requires an exception in order to make it work. If the construct needs an exception then you might as well just make a new power which doesn't require and exception. Finally I find the build to be clumsy:

 

Desolidification, Reduced Endurance: 0 end: +1/2, Persistent: +1/2, Invisible (to all senses): +1, Always On, Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects: -1/2, Fire Only: -1/2. Total Cost: 48 points.

 

Why do I need to use 5 lines on a character sheet when I can just write: Invulnerability to fire: 50 points.

 

A simple power description doesn't really need 150 letters, does it?

 

Nope, not at all. In fact you could design said power for your particular campaign, and then tell your players, "If you want to be Invulnerable to a particular type of attack, buy the Invulnerability Power for 48 points." They never even have to see the mechanics of how it was derived. This is much the same as building a Talent or Super-Skill.

 

Now your definition of Desolid shows where our interpretations differ. When I'm looking for a Power to fulfill my game requirements, I look at the mechanics of it. Mechanically, Desolid lets you avoid taking damage and pass through barriers that would normally prevent you doing so. That's its power. "Intangible" to me is just SFX. Similarly, Energy Blast does function like Drain, if you just go by the first line of the description of Drain from the rulebook: "A character with Drain can temporarily lower the value of one of an opponent's Characteristics or Powers." Since you can define EB as being STUN-only, nothing's stopping you from giving it the Special Effect of draining away an opponent's STUN Characteristic, with the attack stopped by normal Defenses and the return of STUN based on the target's Recovery. If that's what you want to do mechanically, it works just fine.

 

Again, that's just how I interpret it.

 

Now if you're set against rule exceptions, even if they're in the rulebook and arguably "official," of course I can see why this would bother you.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

100% damage reduction is in Digital Hero #28. I was incorrect on the cost. Normal 100% DR is 320 points and resistant is 480 points.

 

Much obliged. I haven't read that issue yet - greatly behind on my game reading. !@#$* real life keeps cutting into my gaming time.