Problem with creating a FH spell.

[Mark Taylor]

One of my players has an old GURPS Fantasy character that we're trying build a reasonably close approximation of in HERO System for a Turakian Age game. Problem is, the character has the GURPS spell Control Illusion, which basically allows an illusionist to steal control of another illusionist's currently active illusion spells. Two approaches occured to me. 1) Dispel Images linked to a VPP only to create the same images-based spell, or 2) Mind Control, only to take control of a person's currently active illusions.

 

Unfortunately, approach 1) would send the character's point cost through the roof, and approach 2) would make it difficult or impossible to take control of illusions where the original caster isn't present.

 

Can anybody think of another approach which isn't prohibitively expensive?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

I don't think Hero has an effective method for taking control of another persons Power... interesting. The Drain: Linked to a large Images Power (or VPP: Only for Images) sounds like the best bet honestly...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Well, in a classic style Fantasy setting, most illusions are going to be based on the 5 natural senses. Thus he would only need the Images power covering Sight, Hearing, Smell, Touch and Taste. Then a limitation stating "only to take control of an existing Image (-2)"

 

I say its worth -2 because he can't use the power at will...there must be another illusion present to manipulate. -2 on top of the other limitations standard for spell casting (gestures, Incan, Extra time, focus etc) will make the spell quite affordable. The only issue is whether or not it fits in the Active Point scheme of whatever magic system you are using.

 

If the Mage who created the original illusion is present, they could probably vie for control of the illusion. This is a good use of the Skill vs Skill rules. Have fun!

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Why not use Transfer? I'm assuming you have an active point cap so this is what I'm going with.

 

Control Illusion: 1d6 Transfer Images to Images, Can Transfer Maximum of 24 Active Points, Autofire (x5, +1 1/2) (60 Active Points), Only for Taking Control of an Illusionary Spell (-1 1/2), Must Have Control of Full Power to Gain Control (-1/2). Total Cost: 20 Points.

 

The maximum effect of Adjustment powers can be increased by 2 for every 1 Character Point spent. Therefore the above is 15 for 1d6 + 9 points for an extra 18 points of control. Autofire costs an extra +1 for Transfers.

 

Alternatively you can do:

Control Illusion: 1d6 Transfer Images to Images, Can Transfer Maximum of 28 Active Points, Autofire (x3, +1 1/4) (58 Active Points), Only for Taking Control of an Illusionary Spell (-1 1/2), Must Have Control of Full Power to Gain Control (-1/2). Total Cost: 19 Points.

 

It will take care of most low power illusions pretty quickly. It would require going above 60 active points to get the sample illusionary spell in 5th Revised.

 

I just noticed a problem though, Transfer is a No Range. It would require ranged for a +1/2 advantage. Perhaps, the best way to do this is going to be with Cumulative.

 

Lets see. 2d6 Transfer, Ranged Cumulative(+1/2) (60 Active Points) 20 Total.

12 total points transferrable. No good.

 

1d6 Transfer Ranged, Cumulative(+1, 48 Points Total), Delayed Rate of Return (1 Minute; +1/2) (45 Active Points) Total Cost: 15

48 points should cover all illusions. Simple ones will be taken in 1 or 2 turns. More powerful ones go down at about 3 or 4 phases. Normally you can't use Cumulative to improve a power but as the SFX is that you are taking control of a limited type of power, I think it is okay.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Okay, this is _way_ out there, but as no one has suggested it yet, I reckon I'll put it on the table for discussion.

 

All the above suggestions are good, but I am seeing a possible flaw, depending on how you feel about GM fiat, and that is that as I understand them, all these powers are used to target another character. In these cases, you'd have to use your 'take over your illusions' spell against the original spell caster, who may not be at home that day.

 

So what I suggest is a way to target the actual power, which has _got_ to be right there; you're looking at it, after all. So I've bandied it around a bit, and well--

 

well, I haven't gotten anything better. But I have one possible idea, though it requires a limited fiat in itself, and that is the allowance of an optional rule:

 

Have you considered using the 5E (and I assume 5Er as well) rules for using Naked Advantages as Powers? Perhaps a quick _Independant_ or _Useable by Others_ (or even a combination of the two) set up with Limitation: _Only vs Illusions_ or some similar construct?

 

 

I wish I had my stuff unpacked so I could check this; it may well suffer from the same 'you're supposed to target the character with that,' but on the surface, I think you can't really apply Power Advantages to a _player_; seems ideal to me.

 

Just thinking out loud. Ignore me.....

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Okay, this is _way_ out there, but as no one has suggested it yet, I reckon I'll put it on the table for discussion.

 

All the above suggestions are good, but I am seeing a possible flaw, depending on how you feel about GM fiat, and that is that as I understand them, all these powers are used to target another character. In these cases, you'd have to use your 'take over your illusions' spell against the original spell caster, who may not be at home that day.

 

So what I suggest is a way to target the actual power, which has _got_ to be right there; you're looking at it, after all. So I've bandied it around a bit, and well--

 

well, I haven't gotten anything better. But I have one possible idea, though it requires a limited fiat in itself, and that is the allowance of an optional rule:

 

Have you considered using the 5E (and I assume 5Er as well) rules for using Naked Advantages as Powers? Perhaps a quick _Independant_ or _Useable by Others_ (or even a combination of the two) set up with Limitation: _Only vs Illusions_ or some similar construct?

 

 

I wish I had my stuff unpacked so I could check this; it may well suffer from the same 'you're supposed to target the character with that,' but on the surface, I think you can't really apply Power Advantages to a _player_; seems ideal to me.

 

Just thinking out loud. Ignore me.....

 

Actually, this has potential. Obviously it's bending the rules somewhat, but the following should serve. It inflicts Usable by Others as a naked advantage on the target spell by making that advantage Usable as Attack, a different form of the same advantage... which is a bit screwed up, but I'm trying not to think about it too hard so my brain doesn't hurt. Anyway, plenty of spells in the Fantasy HERO Grimoire books bend the rules to as great or greater an extent, so that doesn't bother me too much.

 

Control Illusion: Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 40 Active Points of Illusion Spells, Usable As Attack (+1) (20 Active Points); Requires A Sorcery Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4). Total cost: 10 points.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Nice!

 

I'm torn between the Usable by Others and the Tranfer versions....

[gojira]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Another idea is to ask: "What should Control Illusion cost?" and just stat out a transform that costs about what you think. If CI should be about 20 points, try to hit that.

 

Here's one more idea. I don't have 5th, but you could define Illusions as a type of Summon. It'd be like a Desolid bot that does something: makes a noise, shows a picture, etc. They'd be insubstantial (unless maybe the viewer truly believes them?) and not capable of affecting the real world.

 

Then Control Illusion is just a means of controlling the bot. It's always there if the illusion is there. Mind Control the bot (give like ego and int porportional to the casters skill, power, and illusion role), and you're done. Transform would work to: Transform to a bot under my control.

 

 

P.S. Hmm, how to get a desolid bot to affect someone... +1 for desolid to affect the real world, right? Then maybe -1/2 Only if the viewer believes (power looses about half it's effectiveness). Something like this...

[Basil]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Okay, this is _way_ out there, but as no one has suggested it yet, I reckon I'll put it on the table for discussion.

 

All the above suggestions are good, but I am seeing a possible flaw, depending on how you feel about GM fiat, and that is that as I understand them, all these powers are used to target another character. In these cases, you'd have to use your 'take over your illusions' spell against the original spell caster, who may not be at home that day.

I think you're right for the "Mind Control, only to control the Images" idea, but not for the "Transfer, Images to Images" idea. Transfer can be said to attack the Power (or Characteristic), not the "owner" per se. Thus, I'd say it can be used on an Image even if the caster is not present (e.g., if it's Independent or Triggered). So Super Squirrel's ideas, and similar ones, should be fine.

 

As always, YMMV.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Transfer can be said to attack the Power (or Characteristic)' date=' not the "owner" [i']per se[/i]. Thus, I'd say it can be used on an Image even if the caster is not present (e.g., if it's Independent or Triggered).

Very true, but the more I thought about that one, the more I felt that it was a hand-wave of sorts. Granted, there is nothing wrong with that at all; let me share the stream of thought that got me there (hopefully abbreviated):

 

Picture a combat between two Blasters, one with Transfer. When Steal-your-power Man uses his transfer, where is he 'aiming' his power? Presumably at his opponent.

 

If The Leech wants to transfer his opponent's EB, he does not need to wait until that EB has been fired to do so. In fact, he very specifically can't transfer an EB that is currently striking him ("in use," as it were). To do that, he would need an entirely separate power, and in particular, Absorption.

 

Using that as a guideline, I considered that the already-present illusion was simillarly "in use" and thus Transfer could not be used directly against it. However, I see no reason that Absorption can't be used against that illusion; Absorption, as stated, is specifically for powers that are both "in use" and "hitting you" (Assuming that being perceived is the Illusion's equivalent to a successful ''hit,'' of course).

 

But even then, Absorption could well be interpretted to mean that if successful in this case, an 'absorbed' Illusion would fall, and have to be re-cast by the player (though obviously this time it would be an image of the player's design).

 

The major stumbling blocks I found there were

1) the fact that the Illusion would fall, even if momentarily, would ruin the intended effect of the Control Illusion spell

 

2) there is a points limit on Absorption, and raising it high enough to sieze control of any forseeable Illusion would become extremely expensive, particular at a Heroic level

 

3) Not every GM will allow an Absoption to feed a power or ability that the character does not already have. Thus, the character may also have to buy the Illusion spell himself.

 

4) If (3) is the case, many FH campaigns require numerous Limitations on spells, such as gestures, material components, and takes extra time. In such a campaign, and adjustment power-based spell would be impractical for this use, as the current illusion drops, then the caster has to cast a second spell, etc. The desired effect is completely lost in such a case.

 

5) Using a Transfer power, there is the possibility that even if the character's Absorbtion (or Transfer) limit is high enough, his dice might not be high enough to allow him to cast the same illusion.

 

And I fully understand that all of these could be solved with one or more fiats, and (though I think I am well in the minority with this opinion) I really don't have a problem with that: Story before Dice, after all. I want to stress that I was sincerly not trying to call any of the other constructs invalid, as they were all very practical, and depending on your interpretation of how the mechanic itself works, completely book-legal.

 

But after reviewing the above points, it occured to me that what with the possible ways to interpret the mechanics themselves-- ie, targeting the opponent and not the results of his work; possible multiple-phase constructs, etc-- I felt that the Naked Advantages simply offered a more consistent result and would more accurately reproduce the desired effect. That's all.

 

There is no doubt that a T-form would do everything listed above. (but insufficient dice for immediate effects still leaves a clearly detectable indicator that a T-form is occuring, if I remember the book correctly) Frankly, there is no dbout that a T-form could be constructed to replace any power in the book, or reproduce any desired effect. And it is for that reason alone that I was looking for something _other_ than T-form to offer.

 

As always' date=' YMMV.[/quote']

And with this, I will never disagree! Your House; you're rules.

 

 

Duke

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

I think I'm going to plump for the Usable by Other version I posted, though slightly modified to make the RSR limitation subject to Skill vs. Skill contests so that the illusion can resist using the original caster's Skill level. That more closely reflects the way the original GURPS spell worked anyway, and without it the spell seems a little too powerful, allowing the caster to steal any illusion less than or equal to the active point limit with pretty much no chance of failure.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions everybody posted! As always this board has proven itself one of the most useful resources at the disposal of any HERO System GM or player.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Mark---

 

can we talk you into posting your final construct?

 

Even once you've got something you're happy with, I think some of us are still having fun debating it

 

Duke

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Mark---

 

can we talk you into posting your final construct?

 

Sure. I changed the name because I prefer more colourful spell names and the original bland spell names from GURPS Magic aren't exactly an integral part of the character. At the moment it looks like this:

 

------

 

Stolen Phantasm: Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 60 Active Points of Illusion Spells, Usable As Attack (+1), Continuous (+1), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (49 Active Points); Requires A Sorcery Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4). Total cost: 22 points.

 

------

 

The Continuous advantage is required because technically speaking Naked Advantages are Instant by default even when applied to Constant Powers.

 

The Costs END Only to Activate Advantage naturally applies only to the Naked advantage itself - The caster must still pay END to maintain the stolen illusion spell. If he stops, the Stolen Phantasm spell also ends, of course.

 

As it's a Turakian Age campaign, of course the character only pays a third of the cost (7 points) for it.

 

60 Active Points worth might seem like a lot but this is for a Turakian Age campaign so the spell needs to be able to handle some of the more powerful illusions from the Fantasy HERO Grimoire (and it certainly can't handle them all).

 

I know this construction bends the rules but I don't think it's unbalanced (mostly thanks to the Skill vs. Skill requirement) so it doesn't bother me very much. I'm aware that applying the same kind of construct to various other types of powers besides illusions could potentially be really unbalanced, so I don't intend to go there.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

You went with what was going to be my vote... The Naked Advantage is a nice neat construct .. I can't believe I didn't think of it, ok yes I can..

 

Naked Advantage is probably the single best addition to 5thEd. that I can possibly think of, so many options have opened up with that construct.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Wow!

 

I like the addition of Skill vs Skill! It implies actually having to forcibly override what's been created and bend it to your will. Lends a nice "I'm trying! This magic is so much stronger than I thought. This was a powerful wizard indeed!" kind of angle. Very nice! Wish I'd thought of that....

 

I'm not too familiar with HERO's skill v skill, as we've never had a character have a power that utilized it (used it a few times grappling, etc, but 'instant' type stuff is a -no brainer: you win or you don't.) For a continuous power like you've constructed, is the Skill v Skill roll only at the casting of the spell, or must it be re-rolled every phase the power is in use?

[Hierax]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Nice construct!

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

For a continuous power like you've constructed' date=' is the Skill v Skill roll only at the casting of the spell, or must it be re-rolled every phase the power is in use?[/quote']

 

By default it is only at the casting, just like an ordinary RSR.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

I see. I like it!

 

You've got what you want, so this is just shop-talk (as I am really intrigued by the idea behind the spell)----

 

Suppose a character bought the spell requiring the roll every phase to maintain control? -1 instead of -3/4? Or possibly -1 1/4?

 

Anybody?

[Basil]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Actually' date=' this has potential. Obviously it's bending the rules somewhat, but the following should serve. It inflicts [i']Usable by Others[/i] as a naked advantage on the target spell by making that advantage Usable as Attack, a different form of the same advantage... which is a bit screwed up, but I'm trying not to think about it too hard so my brain doesn't hurt. Anyway, plenty of spells in the Fantasy HERO Grimoire books bend the rules to as great or greater an extent, so that doesn't bother me too much.

 

Control Illusion: Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 40 Active Points of Illusion Spells, Usable As Attack (+1) (20 Active Points); Requires A Sorcery Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4). Total cost: 10 points.

 

After thinking about it, I'd have to disagree. 5th Ed., p. 176, says "Usable By Other This is the typical, or default, Usable On Others Advantage. It means the Power is usable by any one person the character targets -- in other words, the character 'gives' a Power to another character."

 

The way I read that, the character who has the Advantaged Power can decided to give, or not to give, control and use of the Power to someone else. I don't think you can stretch the idea to forcing the owning character to give the power. That, to me, sounds like something much more significant.

[Basil]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

If The Leech wants to transfer his opponent's EB' date=' he does not need to wait until that EB has been fired to do so. In fact, he very specifically can't transfer an EB that is currently striking him ("in use," as it were).[/quote']

Could you provide a citation for that? I don't remember coming across anthing like that; given my memory, that's not saying much.

 

To do that' date=' he would need an entirely separate power, and in particular, Absorption.[/quote']

My disagreement with using Absorption is two-fold. #1, the write-up very clearly states Absorption absorbs the BODY of an attack.

 

#2: the name Absorption is somewhat misleading (though doyc[1] knows what else to call it). It does not, in fact, absorb incoming energy in the sense of reducing it in any way, shape, or form. An "Absorbed" attack has all of its potential damage, effect, and oomph. Thus, using it to control an illusion/Image will not eliminate or weaken the existing Image at all.

 

Unless you want two Images taking up the same space and running simultaneously, Absorption doesn't seem to me to be of any real use.

 

Repeat after me, "YMMV"

 

 

 

[1] Deity Of Your Choice

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

After thinking about it' date=' I'd have to disagree. 5th Ed., p. 176, says "[b']Usable By Other[/b] This is the typical, or default, Usable On Others Advantage. It means the Power is usable by any one person the character targets -- in other words, the character 'gives' a Power to another character."

 

The way I read that, the character who has the Advantaged Power can decided to give, or not to give, control and use of the Power to someone else. I don't think you can stretch the idea to forcing the owning character to give the power. That, to me, sounds like something much more significant.

 

Bear in mind I made the Usable by Other naked advantage Usable as Attack. The caster of the illusion stealing spell has complete control over how the naked advantage is used. That's what Usable as Attack does, it confers the attacker total control over how the power it applies to is used, and the power in this case is the naked advantage Usable by Other.

 

This construct, of course, still bends the rules (in at least two ways that I can think of), but not for the reason you state. As I said before, that doesn't bother me too much. Sometimes you have to bend the rules to get where you want. The Fantasy HERO Grimoire books by HERO Games' own Mr. Steven Long are full of spells that bend the rules for convenience and state as much in the spell descriptions.

[Korvar]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

I wonder if you couldn't do it as "Images" with the limitation "Only to alter already existing Illusions"

 

I guess it's the old story - what does this power actually do?

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

After thinking about it' date=' I'd have to disagree. 5th Ed., p. 176, says "[b']Usable By Other[/b] This is the typical, or default, Usable On Others Advantage. It means the Power is usable by any one person the character targets -- in other words, the character 'gives' a Power to another character."

 

Right you are. That's why it should be both Usable by Other _and_ Useable as Attack. The Useable as Attack is not for the power; it's already an 'attack' in its own right. the Useable as Attack applies to the Useable by Other to simulate the forceable use by others. I thought thas was more clear; my appologies.

 

Could you provide a citation for that?

 

Unfortuneatly, not for six weeks or so. As mentioned, most of my books are packed in preparation for a move. BBB and 2E are still out (two more games between now and the move), but I'd like to do this 5E-legal. (The problem there is I don't even own 5Er, having just discovered it existed at all). I have been hoping that someone on this thread might be able to prove or disprove the construction per 5E.

 

But in keeping with the example, I was going by the default that Transfer has no range and that Absorption is something that you do to an attack that is striking you. In play, I've never seen anyone offer a maneuver along the lines of:

"Fine. His Laser EyeBeam hits you for 16 stun, 5 Body."

"All right! As soon as the beam hit me, I'm going to Transfer it."

 

Granted, since this has never come up, I've never thought about it. I suppose it may or may not be 'right,' but I was working with what I 'knew' at the time I offered the build. I could be totally off base. It happens.

 

In it's default set-up, it would seem that Transfer is used by somehow 'laying hands' on the opposing character to use the power. Extrapolating from this, even if the power is bought with the advantage "ranged," it is still the original wielder of the power that should be targeted, and not the power itself.

 

But I think we can all agree that replacing the word "transfer" in the above exampe with the word "absorb" would never so much as raise an eyebrow.

 

Yes, the current Absorb works vs BODY damage, which is 'not quite right' against a power like Illusions. But it seems (at least on the surface) that Transfer wasn't right either, not as presented.

 

So I backed up, stepping a bit further back into the mechanics and then, for lack of a better term, the 'meta-mechanics' of the powers to determine that T-fer was targeted against a character, while Absorb was targeted against the power itself.

 

But neither of them was 'ideal,' or I would--

 

sorry, more later. My group is here.

 

Keep the ideas coming, though--

we may eventually hit on a 'perfect' way to do this.

 

Hmm..... 6E, anyone?

[DrFurious]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

I seem to recall some rules for using Transform to target Powers (as well as Social Transforms, Mental Transforms, etc). I think it was in the Ultimate Super Mage. [Yep. See pg 50. The idea behind it was if you could destroy(dispel) a power you may just as well transform it.]

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Problem with creating a FH spell.

 

Game's over---

 

I've got a minute to finish my first thoughts (oh, if only I could remember them.....)

 

Could you provide a citation for that?

As I said before, not as such, but if it were possible to 'transfer' and attack that was hitting you, then it seems that Absorb would be no more than a limited form of Transfer:

Absorb, only applied to dice of affect after being hit

 

or something like that. The reason, as I see it (and as stated before, a lot of 'how to build' questions are based completely on individual interpretation of how the power works, so 'as I see it' is no more 'correct' than how anyone else sees it; I just thought this construct was interesting enough to discuss some more), that Transfer and Absorb are two different powers is because they target two decidely different things:

Transfer targets the concept of 'having the ability'-- in short, Transfer 'steals something from someone' where as Absorb targets the effect of the power--- what the power actually does, the result of using the power.

 

Truth be told, I don't think that Absorb is 'perfect' for this spell either; I merely suggested that it was more appropriate than Transfer and gave some reasons I thought that. No biggie if I'm completely wrong .

 

]My disagreement with using Absorption is two-fold. #1' date=' the write-up very clearly states Absorption absorbs the BODY of an attack.[/quote']

Right. I was working under the impression that, from a mechanics point of view, "Dice of Damage" is simply meta-game speak for 'effect of power.' Going from there, it's fairly easy to arrive at the conclusion that the Illusion itself is the 'effect of power' for Illusions. Alternately, I suppose anyone opting to allow Absorb for this purpose would simply need to count and record the 'BODY' rolled on the dice of effect for the Illusion. Granted, still seems kind of contrived to me, and that's why I didn't suggest it; I merely mentioned that I thought the concept of the power was more appropriate than that of Transfer. But it still felt hokey, so I went with something else.

 

#2: the name Absorption is somewhat misleading (though doyc[1] knows what else to call it). It does not' date=' in fact, absorb incoming energy in the sense of reducing it in any way, shape, or form. An "Absorbed" attack has all of its potential damage, effect, and oomph. Thus, using it to control an illusion/Image will not eliminate or weaken the existing Image at all.[/quote']

Yes; it's always been a bit skewed like that, and there have always been complaints, but I think most of us put it down to Game Balance. If it was _truly_ an 'Absorption,' then you'd get a great deal on a variable defense that worked against all kinds of things, including AVLD, NND, etc, was effectively resistant, _and_ you'd get that nifty power kick-up from the absorbed BODY. (believe me, you _don't_ want to house rule in a 'true' Absorb unless you make the defense angles _very_ expensive Advantages! In no time at all, every brick and blaster has a justification for having the power.... Tried it, regretted it, dropped it).

 

But even at that, every edition has shown how to construct, using additional powers, exactly that effect. I can only assume that the reason for this is because even the original designers knew good and well that's what Absorb should be, and even in 5E, those same examples and instructions exist, and most likely for the very same reasons (and, at this point, tradition )

 

Unless you want two Images taking up the same space and running simultaneously' date=' Absorption doesn't seem to me to be of any real use. [/quote']

Agreed. So I suggested the nekkid advantages instead of Absorb. But since you mention two images......

 

I wonder if you couldn't do it as "Images" with the limitation "only to alter already existing Illusions"

I almost went that way; really I did. In fact, that's exactly how I got to the Naked Advantages construct. My first thought at the time was about the price: ensuring that the character would have enough dice to 'out dice' the existing Image. With no real way to know how much to expect, the spell got pretty pricey in a hurry.

 

And then I wondered about the conflict: using a power that by construction did not let you use the power. It was confusing.

 

Then it sort of occured to me that the Limitation itself-- controlling the ima ge-- was the part that that was desireable.

 

But without actually having the power, there was no need for the Limitation. But supposing the Image you were 'attacking' had a Limitation on it that let it be controled by other magic spells? How do you forcibly place a Limitation on someone else's power?

 

And that's how I got to the Naked Advantages.

 

But, if anyone's still hanging around, I'd like to hear your conception on the mechanics of the limited Images construct; you know, how it actually works in terms of mechanics and sfx and such. I'd also like to hear more about Basil's Transfer construct as well.

 

Repeat after me' date=' "YMMV" [/quote']

Your mileage may vary....

Your mileage may vary....

Your mileage may vary....

 

 

The way I read that' date=' [/quote']

 

And there is the crux of the matter; the reason that there is always more than one right way, and the reason that so many people are bound to disagree on different aspects of the game. Unfortunately, semantics is the price you pay for a system like HERO-- one that is at its essence, a method of codifying and comparing otherwise uncomparable things: Flight and Killing Attack, Kenetics and Lasers, etc.

 

So, again,

 

your mileage may vary....

your mileage may vary....

your mileage may vary....

 

 

But as long as everyone is civil about it, I think we can all enjoy sharing and discussing different ideas and concepts, right?