Are you engaged in the DEX race?

[Fedifensor]

Here's the main problem I have with the cost of DEX:

 

+1 DCV = 5 points

 

+3 DEX (minus the 3 figured points of SPD) = 6 points

 

So, for 1 extra point, you get +1 OCV with everything and 3 points of Lightning Reflexes. That's not counting the possibility that it brought your DEX high enough to get an extra +1 with all your DEX-based skills.

 

Sure, the whole package of DEX should cost less than the sum of the parts, but this is ridiculous. Either DCV levels should cost less, or DEX should cost more.

[lemming]

Re: Interesting...

 

Originally posted by Shaun Hendricks Sure, some cleaver character conception and an offsetting weakness in the character some place else, may allow you to 'bend' this wall, but you should never be allowed to stray too far from it.

It's the Cleaver!!

 

I don't run with set limits. (or at least that I've had to limit) Then again, I've got very reasonable players so I don't have any worry.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Morningstar

Now look at the throwing table: Thor and the Hulk have both thrown large tanks completely out of orbit. Um..what exactly is that STR score? However if you look at there lifting ability on the chart they would stat no higher than 60--80. Hulk can lift 90(over 100 when angry) tons which would be certainly no more than 200 in champions lift. With that 65 STR he could throw a tank 8 meters! Not exactly out of orbit. Grond with his 90 STR could throw it 28 meters. Wohoo!

 

Sounds like you might be following the OHOTMU too closely, my friend. The strength levels in the Handbook for the upper echelon guys are pure bunk. The Marvel Editors-in-chief for both runs have even admitted as much. All the big Marvel heavy hitters have easily lifted things in the couple hundred ton range (and more) many times in the comics.

 

You can pretty much assume the weight limits for anyone stronger than Spidey in the Handbooks are way off.

 

Just FYI (now I've veered even further off topic:eek: )

[Starlord]

Re: Re: Interesting...

 

Originally posted by lemming

It's the Cleaver!!

 

I don't run with set limits. (or at least that I've had to limit) Then again, I've got very reasonable players so I don't have any worry.

 

Never played with limits, either. Never had a problem with stat races, either. Even 20 years ago when we were all 13-14 year olds.

 

I suspect stat escalation it has nothing to do with rules problems, its more of a player/GM maturity problem.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

Sorry, a Dex 20 4 spd martial artist just isn't effective or fun in the big leagues (350+ pts).(...)A mundane human HTH specialist with the NCM disad can't at 350+. They simply aren't competitive with characters with no NCM.

Once again, your loss.

 

Vs the agents, you might take out one or two with a free attack, but if the agents are run with the least bit of intelligence, half to 2/3s of them would be holding actions at all times. After your first attack, the agents will pulverize you at DCV 8. You could choose to dodge forever I suppose, but it's not very effective and very boring and eventually the agents will start rolling 3's.

Whatever. If any of the agents rolls triple snake eyes, they hit my Cap, your Cap, or even a 180 DEX "Cap" for that matter. Still I don't see the relevance.

 

Why would I put everything in OCV vs these anyway? Are they that hard to hit? I may even not see the need to Dodge or Block against these. Martial Strike should do the trick, thank you very much.

 

If you can accept a 28 str for Cap, why can't you accept a 28-30 dex for Cap?

 

Big STR scores in HERO are, as it is, more common than high DEX. While STRs of 60, 70 and 80 are legion, high DEXs are often half of that. I know that CSLs are more my schtick if I want to build a trained fighter and tactician, and at NCM, this extra DEX comes expensive. I figure an active valour of 10 (or 20 NCM) over NCM I could afford on a 450-500 pts character, but more would be a waste. That is a STR of 28, a DEX of 23, and a CON of 25. And a SPD of 5 max.

[Stargazer]

Originally posted by Gary

 

Sorry, a Dex 20 4 spd martial artist just isn't effective or fun in the big leagues (350+ pts). That character might work well in a lower power campaign, but not with higher level characters.

 

"if ur talking cosmic big leagues i agree...otherwise that simply not true....i made characters with lower dex and spd then the "big leaguers...and where on par with them...u need to use ur brain more often then the stronger/faster/more dex oriented characters"

 

Originally posted by Gary

If you can accept a 28 str for Cap, why can't you accept a 28-30 dex for Cap?

 

A mundane human HTH specialist with the NCM disad can't at 350+. They simply aren't competitive with characters with no NCM. They can as power armor dudes though.

 

"so batman wouldnt be competitive??? i think not!!!!!

and whose more human then Bats????..he doesnt need a power armor...he has other things going beside dex and speed...its called a brain...and he uses it very well...and i think we can all agree that batman plays in the big leagues...no?"

 

 

 

but again this is just my humble opinion......

 

 

P.S.: to nukleon...

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Stargazer

again i agree i myself look more like a biker then a geek...(ask nukleon he knows )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Yeah. A biker with Density Increase.

 

(That's Nucleon, mortal.)

 

what do you mean density increase?? aint my fault if im the unstopable/immovable object:D

and im not fat!! im just built like a dwarf thats all:)

(b.t.w. ill get you for that!! )

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar

Now look at the throwing table: Thor and the Hulk have both thrown large tanks completely out of orbit. Um..what exactly is that STR score? However if you look at there lifting ability on the chart they would stat no higher than 60--80. Hulk can lift 90(over 100 when angry) tons which would be certainly no more than 200 in champions lift. With that 65 STR he could throw a tank 8 meters! Not exactly out of orbit. Grond with his 90 STR could throw it 28 meters. Wohoo!

 

The champions of knockback are DC, where characters easily get punched up to the moon. Yet, in the first arc of the current JLA title, Green Lantern puts a white Martian down with a 60-ton weight. That' between 55-60 STR.

 

Truth is, modern science has yet to set laws for Knockback Effect After A Punch.

 

Just occured to me. Could you buy Megascale on STR for the means of throwing things and (ouch) knockback? Now that would be Munchkin-Earth for sure.

 

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Gary

Sorry, a Dex 20 4 spd martial artist just isn't effective or fun in the big leagues (350+ pts). That character might work well in a lower power campaign, but not with higher level characters.

I totally agree with this statement. DEX 20 4 SPD (or higher) is where many bricks are at in a 350+ point game. (Our team brick has a 23 DEX 4 SPD.) A martial artist with only 4 SPD would be in big trouble fighting a high-damage/high defense opponent who moves as often, irregardless of DEX or CSLs.

 

One of the reasons I believe martial artists have high SPD in the first place is so they can burn Phases dodging or otherwise avoiding damage and still get in their own attacks. It's not so they can clobber their opponent and then go out for a latte before the team brick has taken his first swing.

 

Players and GMs must recognize that all characteristics are relative within each individual campaign, not on a Cosmic Scale of Characteristicsâ„¢. If the average team brick is a DEX 11 3 SPD ,then perhaps the martial artists can get by with a 20 DEX 4 SPD. But if the bricks are at DEX 18 SPD 4 then the martial artist needs to be faster. In general, I think a martial artist should be at least 50% faster than a typical brick in the campaign. Considering that "normal" humans have a SPD 2 and well trained agents or soldiers would likely have a SPD 3, SPD 4 is hardly slow. Once again, the proper benchmark for comparisons is normal humans with DEX 8 SPD 2. Compared to that standard, a brick with a DEX 18 SPD 4 is a world-class athlete. That's as it should be; CHAMPIONSâ„¢ is a superhero role-playing game. Superheroes should be amazing athletes, it's part of the genre.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

IPlayers and GMs must recognize that all characteristics are relative within each individual campaign, not on a Cosmic Scale of Characteristicsâ„¢. If the average team brick is a DEX 11 3 SPD ,then perhaps the martial artists can get by with a 20 DEX 4 SPD. But if the bricks are at DEX 18 SPD 4 then the martial artist needs to be faster. In general, I think a martial artist should be at least 50% faster than a typical brick in the campaign. Considering that "normal" humans have a SPD 2 and well trained agents or soldiers would likely have a SPD 3, SPD 4 is hardly slow. Once again, the proper benchmark for comparisons is normal humans with DEX 8 SPD 2. Compared to that standard, a brick with a DEX 18 SPD 4 is a world-class athlete. That's as it should be; CHAMPIONSâ„¢ is a superhero role-playing game. Superheroes should be amazing athletes, it's part of the genre.

 

Great point. If your supposedly quick MA is at a lowly SPD 4, where is your brick? SPD 3?!?! The equivalent of a VIPER Agent? The Hulk, Thor, Thing, etc., DO NOT move at the same pace as lowly agents. Please.

 

Look at linemen, linebackers, and Worlds Strongest Man competitors. They are proof that big and muscular guys aren't slow and plodding. In actuality, they are very fast.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Once again, your loss.

 

Have you ever actually played a dex 20 spd 4 MA in a 350+ campaign? I've been playing and gaming over 15 years. I believe I know what I'm talking about when I say that this MA won't be competitive.

 

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Whatever. If any of the agents rolls triple snake eyes, they hit my Cap, your Cap, or even a 180 DEX "Cap" for that matter. Still I don't see the relevance.

 

Why would I put everything in OCV vs these anyway? Are they that hard to hit? I may even not see the need to Dodge or Block against these. Martial Strike should do the trick, thank you very much.

 

You could put every level in DCV if you want, and still hit the DCV 5 agent. Your DCV with martial strike will be 20 vs HTH attacks (8 + 2 + 10) which pretty much guarantees that no agent will hit you HTH. However, even if you put all 10 3 pt levels into DCV, your DCV is still 8 vs ranged attacks. Those levels and the normal +2 with martial strike do not work vs ranged attacks! It's a little tiring repeating myself. The first time you strike, you'll take out a couple of agents. No question. However the rest will pulverize you at DCV 8.

 

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Big STR scores in HERO are, as it is, more common than high DEX. While STRs of 60, 70 and 80 are legion, high DEXs are often half of that. I know that CSLs are more my schtick if I want to build a trained fighter and tactician, and at NCM, this extra DEX comes expensive. I figure an active valour of 10 (or 20 NCM) over NCM I could afford on a 450-500 pts character, but more would be a waste. That is a STR of 28, a DEX of 23, and a CON of 25. And a SPD of 5 max.

 

I thought this discussion was about what Cap should be, not what you can afford.

 

If you can accept a 28-30 for str as peak human, I don't see what the problem is for 28-30 for dex as peak human assuming cost isn't a factor.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Stargazer

"so batman wouldnt be competitive??? i think not!!!!!

and whose more human then Bats????..he doesnt need a power armor...he has other things going beside dex and speed...its called a brain...and he uses it very well...and i think we can all agree that batman plays in the big leagues...no?"

 

Batman doesn't merely have 20 dex and 4 spd. If he did, he wouldn't be competitive. He probably has 26-28 dex and 6 spd.

 

I refuse to believe that Batman is only moderately superior to the typical Dex 14 Spd 3 goon that he fights. He acts at least twice as often, not only 33% more often.

[Rick]

"Have you ever actually played a dex 20 spd 4 MA in a 350+ campaign? I've been playing and gaming over 15 years. I believe I know what I'm talking about when I say that this MA won't be competitive."

 

Actually I have. He kicked ass. Remember 350 pts doesn't mean 6-8 spd it means lots of points. For us it means Options for skills, levels and powers.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick

"Have you ever actually played a dex 20 spd 4 MA in a 350+ campaign? I've been playing and gaming over 15 years. I believe I know what I'm talking about when I say that this MA won't be competitive."

 

Actually I have. He kicked ass. Remember 350 pts doesn't mean 6-8 spd it means lots of points. For us it means Options for skills, levels and powers.

 

What were the bricks, energy projectors, and mentalists in that campaign? 14 dex 3 spd? What were the agents?

[Rick]

I belive the Brick was a 12dex 3spd and the enery projector was a 18dex 4spd. I had them all by about 5-6 cvs and lightning reflexes +3. Really good agents clocked in about 15dex-3spd. I was the classic super agent guy. It was a lower powered game W/lots of character utility. The most powerful attacks were around 10d6. It was like a really versatle Xmen campaign.

 

I've also played in games W/a 29dex 7spd Martial artist. I must say both kicked relativly the same kind of ass in there own enviroment. Remember it'a all in how the GM writes up the game. You seem really stuck in the conception that there is only one way to write characters up, there are many many ways and we enjoy them all in my corner of the woods. If anything we like lower Dexs and Spd's, it just saves points.

[Morningstar]

Have you ever actually played a dex 20 spd 4 MA in a 350+ campaign? I've been playing and gaming over 15 years. I believe I know what I'm talking about when I say that this MA won't be competitive."

 

Actually I have. He kicked ass. Remember 350 pts doesn't mean 6-8 spd it means lots of points. For us it means Options for skills, levels and powers.

 

Did your campaign allow you to have a 26 DEX and 6 SPD as a MA if you chose to? Champions is a very comprehensive game with virtually limitless options, but in combat SPD is so effective I dont see why you would choose to bypass is if it is in concept and allowable?

 

Tactically having 6 actions instead of 4 in a turn is a huge advantage, especially in a team setting. Not to mention a lot of fun to have those extra chances to move, attack, save a civilian, heal a teammate, etc. Playing a MA with desolid for example, to hold an action to go desolid is a great signature move to try and set up opponents to hit each other, torment the brick that tried to hit you with a car, etc. But if it takes you out of coming back into play for that whole extra segment, it can be devastating to your team effectiveness, or being able to pull the child to safety or not.

 

This holds true for any game I can think of, imagine any game be it a board game, sport etc. and think of moving 3 times for every time your opponent moves 2.

[Rick]

We also played a game W/Thing, Spiderman and Night crawler.

 

Thing- 18dex 4spd

 

Spiderman- 26dex 6spd

 

Nightcrawler- 23dex 5spd

 

Given that at 350 pts thing is really easy to right up, he cost about 320 pts 80str mind you, he ended up being able to hit spidey on a 13 or less. He would have wiped the floor W/the web head. Except that spedy would have kept him intanlged, still one bad role and roll over spidey. That was a fun game my players had a blast W/those characters.

[Rick]

Morningtar that's why there are campaign limits, there weren't going to be 26dex 6spd dudes just floating around unless they were a party buster. I believe there was once a villian speedster who clocked in at a 5 spd W/gobbs of running...I kicked his lilly few levels having ass as well.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick

I belive the Brick was a 12dex 3spd and the enery projector was a 18dex 4spd. I had them all by about 5-6 cvs and lightning reflexes +3. Really good agents clocked in about 15dex-3spd. I was the classic super agent guy. It was a lower powered game W/lots of character utility. The most powerful attacks were around 10d6. It was like a really versatle Xmen campaign.

 

I've also played in games W/a 29dex 7spd Martial artist. I must say both kicked relativly the same kind of ass in there own enviroment. Remember it'a all in how the GM writes up the game. You seem really stuck in the conception that there is only one way to write characters up, there are many many ways and we enjoy them all in my corner of the woods. If anything we like lower Dexs and Spd's, it just saves points.

 

I guess I'm viewing things through the comic book convention where agents are merely annoying nuisances. In comics, there is a large separation between supers and agents, where Cap or Batman can deal with dozens of well trained agents at once, and where even Cyclops, Storm, or Iceman have a high enough DCV where agents and normals miss almost all the time.

 

In a low dex/spd world this won't be the case. 15 dex 3 spd agents are a major threat to 12 dex bricks, 18 dex blasters, or 20 dex MAs with 3-4 spds. If you buy enough 5 pt or 8 pt CSLs so that the agents aren't a threat, then the cost becomes a major factor and you've lost all the savings that you would be counting on.

[Rick]

Well pariah the 4spd Martial artist, with cvs sitting around 14 worked a unit of 6 thug, 3 spds W/cvs around 6-7, like he owned them. No problem, it took about 15 minutes real time...maybe two full turns.

[Rick]

Right the 12 dex 3spd brick W/25rpd 25red is really affraid of the agents W/there 6d6 baster who still have to roll under 11 or 12 to hit him. Yep he's shaking in his boots.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick

Well pariah the 4spd Martial artist, with cvs sitting around 14 worked a unit of 6 thug, 3 spds W/cvs around 6-7, like he owned them. No problem, it took about 15 minutes real time...maybe two full turns.

 

Did he have 8 pt CSLs or 5 pt DCV levels?

[Morningstar]

Morningtar that's why there are campaign limits, there weren't going to be 26dex 6spd dudes just floating around unless they were a party buster.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

That is exactly why I asked if you had the option or not or if was limited by campaign or concept

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick

Right the 12 dex 3spd brick W/25rpd 25red is really affraid of the agents W/there 6d6 baster who still have to roll under 11 or 12 to hit him. Yep he's shaking in his boots.

 

What sort of agents only have 6D6 blasters? Give me a group of agents with AK47s or 8D6 blasters, and that brick is going down fast. Especially if there are a couple with basic martial arts to first martial throw him.

[Rick]

Ok he had he had 6 5 point dcv only levels and aplethera of varius 3 and 5 point combat levels. He had no range ability for the most part so I had no use for all around combat levels. Like I said lots of points.

[Rick]

Gary you still haven't realized that this was a lower power level campaign 6d6 ebs weren't scary but could do some stun to my PC. Even When the viper agents roled out W/their 8d6 blaster our brick could roll three of in a a turn he liked a good challenge.

 

I could have squeezed out a 5 spd if I'd of liked but I wanted the levels in DCV instead.