WWYCD: Omelas

[Chuckg]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

> Who is insisting that the child be tortured?

 

Everybody who chooses to let the system of Omelas continue as it is.

[Zed-F]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

> Kidnapping the kid won't do anything but get the town angry and

> force them to choose another kid to inflict with misery.

 

Actually, no -- once broken, the spell (or whatever) never resumes. That's also in the story.

That's what happens if the residents break the spell (now that I've read the story.) Doesn't necessarily say anything about what happens regarding someone who was never in on the bargain in the first place.

 

And given that every single resident of this town is complicit in the systematic torture of a child for personal gain, I could care less how much their feelings are hurt. Hell, I'm of at least half a mind to massacre them.

 

Some things are just plain evil and not to be borne.

And two wrongs don't make a right. If you don't look for a way to make things better for everyone before you go off half-cocked and impose a destructive 'solution,' you're no better.

 

Let's have no false dilemnas here. Find out what the true situation is before you act.

[incrdbil]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

 

Let's have no false dilemnas here. Find out what the true situation is before you act.

 

The true situation is that their is no good, decent person in the city. The city is not a utopia or partadise, but a lie. They prosper only by the suffering of others. Instead of honestly facing the challenges of life, they torture a very small minority of one to buy comfort for themselves. Character is what you do in the dark, so it is certain that their is no one of character yet in this accursed city.

 

So, you stop the horror. If it destroys the city and every soul in it, so be it; put the blame on the despicable individual/group who caused such an abomination to come to be in the first place, for denying the certainty that, ultimately, one person one day would do the right thing.

 

And, as this thread is a "What would your character do" thread, its implicit our characters could make such a change; there is no point having a WWYCD thread if the characters can do nothing.

[McCoy]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Metaphysician, I apologize, but for some reason I cannot bring myself to post on this one. For some reason, it feels like there's a "gotcha" lurking.

[Chuckg]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Exactly, incrdbil. I /don't/ have to make things better "for everyone". I merely have to save the innocent... and punish the guilty.

 

Since the whole damn population of the city (small children aside) is guilty, that really really simplifies the task at hand.

 

McCoy -- and yes, there's a 'gotcha' lurking. Ursula K. LeGuin tried to create a no-win situation with her story.

 

However, IMO, she missed. Since there are, actually speaking, no innocents in Omelas... well, as I said, that clarifies things enormously.

[Dr Archeville]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Dead Head: has PsychLimit: Protective of Children and Enraged: When witnesses others suffering cruel and unusual punishment. The adults of Omelas would soon all be very, very dead, and the innocent children (all the ones too young to have had any concept of what had been going on, and the ones who had been shown but were shocked & sickened & disgusted) would all be relocated. This would, oddly, create a group of children who would come to love the Boogeyman (Dead Head's a zombie).

 

Doktor Archeville: would realize the ends do not justify the means, and (owing to his dislike of magic) would free the child, and all the other children (the same ones Dead Head would have) and take them somewhere safe. The adults he'd leave to the Hague.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Devilfire: (Demon half) A demon remnant is hardly going to care about the child's plight, however seeing an opportunity to destroy a utopia, even a faux utopia like this, would make him chortle with glee. (Human half) Greg would genuinely sympathize with the kid and try to help him/her anyway he can regardless of what the villagers might try to do to him as a result. The irony of a quasi-demonic villain saving the kid from a hellish existance would not be lost on either of them.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Metaphysician' date=' I apologize, but for some reason I cannot bring myself to post on this one. For some reason, it feels like there's a "gotcha" lurking.[/quote']

 

Well, some people might *find* a "gotcha", but only if they deliberate look for a reason not to intervene. I certain;y don't have one in mind.

 

Or rather, I fully expect that intervening will result in their civilization falling, whether by mass psychology or mystical backlash. . . but I consider that a feature, not a defect.

 

Edit: Or, see what Chuck said re: attempted no win scenarios. Its only a no win if you only consider the two choices given in the story. Bad case of a misplaced unstated assumption, IMHO.

[McCoy]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Well' date=' some people might *find* a "gotcha", but only if they deliberate look for a reason not to intervene. I certain;y don't have one in mind.[/quote']

Didn't think you were setting a trap, just seen this setup too many times from those who will then attempt to say that aborting a foetus or mistreating a hamster is the same as torturing a child, then act like I'm the monster when I point out that it isn't.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Well, I would say aborting a pregnancy is the same as *killing* a child, but even I will grant that this scenario involves doing considerably worse, so if one tried to use it as a parallel, it'd be a poor attempt.

[starblaze]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Lillith- Spinach and Feta cheese, English muffin

 

Dr. Benedict- Egg white and mushroom, dry wheat, no home fries.

 

Captain Mysterion- Western with Rye toast.

 

 

Wait, is this the WWYCD-Omelet thread?

 

 

 

Oh, my bad.

LOL:snicker: :snicker:

 

Oh, and I want ham and cheese with home fries please. And a bagel.

[psm]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Newt: Would walk away (actually fly but I digress). Although, he would want to save the child he understands its not his decision. The society of Omelas (including the child's parents) have decided that the neglect of one child is worth the well being of all the other children (possibly the neglected child's siblings too), adults and elderly. He may find the act brutal (and a cop out) buts its their culture.

[Zed-F]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

The true situation is that their is no good, decent person in the city. The city is not a utopia or partadise, but a lie. They prosper only by the suffering of others. Instead of honestly facing the challenges of life, they torture a very small minority of one to buy comfort for themselves. Character is what you do in the dark, so it is certain that their is no one of character yet in this accursed city.

And yet the impression I got was that the people of the town knew that what they were doing was wrong, but didn't feel they had the power to change it. They couldn't bring themselves to help the child, because they knew others -- not just they themselves -- would be harmed. And so they gave up fighting the system, or left.

 

That's not evil, that's hopelessness. That's despair. And you don't fight despair by killing everyone, by visiting their worst fears upon them, you do it by showing people that there is hope.

 

There is no change unless it comes from within. But that does not obviate the possibility of change. These people have lived with this environment for so long, many of them see no alternative -- they have allowed themselves to become blinded to what they are doing, because examining it too closely is too painful. But if someone came along, got them to re-evaluate what they were doing, and offered an alternative that didn't seem completely hopeless, isn't there a chance that some of them -- many, even -- might not agree to it? Isn't that better than writing them off completely?

 

Isn't that why we don't have the death penalty for every major crime? There are some crimes that are worth the death penalty. By my reading of the attitude of the townsfolk, this isn't one of them. If they were delighting in the child's suffering, that would be one thing. Instead they regard it as an evil, but a necessary one. Find a way to show them that the evil is not necessary, and they might well repent of it.

[psm]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

And yet the impression I got was that the people of the town knew that what they were doing was wrong, but didn't feel they had the power to change it. They couldn't bring themselves to help the child, because they knew others -- not just they themselves -- would be harmed. And so they gave up fighting the system, or left.

 

I'm not sure they gave up fighting out of hopelessness. They definitely rationalized the situation. By saying they there was no help for the child at that point (which is true but shouldn't change the situation) they were able to keep up the charade. I really don't think they wanted to fight because of fear. Scared for themselves, their friends and the unknown. They didn't even know where the people who left were going. As far as the towns people were concerned there were no other towns or way of life. At least thats my take. By the way this is one of the better WWYCD.

[Chuckg]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

I agree with psm. The whole idea of 'there is nothing we can do!' was, IMO, a self-serving rationalization and nothing more. By convincing themselves that they were helpless, the citizens of Omelas got themselves off the guilt hook.

 

Feh. I suppose this is one of the classic ways how truly monstrous evils are rationalized -- by convincing yourself that you 'have no choice', rather than convincing yourself to just step up and bite the bullet. Nobody promised us life would be easy, merely that it would *be*.

[Whitewings]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

I'm not sure they gave up fighting out of hopelessness. They definitely rationalized the situation. By saying they there was no help for the child at that point (which is true but shouldn't change the situation) they were able to keep up the charade. I really don't think they wanted to fight because of fear. Scared for themselves' date=' their friends and the unknown. They didn't even know where the people who left were going. As far as the towns people were concerned there were no other towns or way of life. At least thats my take. By the way this is one of the better WWYCD.[/quote']

Part of why LeGuin wrote "Omelas" was to make the point that no matter how high its production values, evil is still evil. It's still disgusting, petty, selfish and cowardly, no matter how many self-declared intellectuals decry joy and goodness as false and meaningless, and comfort as decadent and exploitive (note that many of these intellectuals are either academics or very wealthy, and thus do no need to deal with what most people refer to as the real world).

[psm]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Part of why LeGuin wrote "Omelas" was to make the point that no matter how high its production values' date=' evil is still evil. It's still disgusting, petty, selfish and cowardly, no matter how many self-declared intellectuals decry joy and goodness as false and meaningless, and comfort as decadent and exploitive (note that many of these intellectuals are either academics or very wealthy, and thus do no need to deal with what most people refer to as the real world).[/quote']

 

I'm not sure I wholeheartedly agree with this. Yes, evil is still evil but what if a greater good can come out of it. Its still evil but sometimes necessary. Hell, our history is littered with tons of examples. I mean we just invaded a country knowing that innocent civilians would be killed. Yet, we still did it because we believe (or at least the current administration believes:)) that our efforts to install a democratic government would provide them with a better future in the long run. A little evil for a greater good. Its not such a clear cut issue.

[Zed-F]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

I'm not sure they gave up fighting out of hopelessness. They definitely rationalized the situation. By saying they there was no help for the child at that point (which is true but shouldn't change the situation) they were able to keep up the charade. I really don't think they wanted to fight because of fear. Scared for themselves' date=' their friends and the unknown. They didn't even know where the people who left were going. As far as the towns people were concerned there were no other towns or way of life. At least thats my take. By the way this is one of the better WWYCD.[/quote']

 

Call it fear, call it despair; they are close cousins. The point is, how do you deal with it? Do you deal with it by blowing up the lot of them on sight? Consign them to the fate you think they deserve without a moment's hesitation? Or do you at least make an effort to redeem them first? To show them the error of their ways and help them take a better path?

 

There is a difference between someone who has done something reprehensible, and someone who is unrepentantly, irredeemably evil. Show them that they do have a choice, that they can take responsability for their own actions and not die as a result. Convince the whole town to pick up, leave what they've built, abandon that way of life, and start fresh, if that's what it takes.

 

Any meta that comes in and acts as judge, jury, and executioner here without so much as considering what can be done to help these people recognize the nature of and overcome their problem is making the situation worse, not better.

[Chuckg]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Zed, they are not making an error out of ignorance, they are deliberately choosing a monstrous act of evil. Nobody can reasonably claim that they didn't know that the systematic sacrifice and slow murder of children was a bad thing.

 

And they *DID* have a choice. The story emphasizes deliberately that any one of them /could/ choose to end it at any time. They have an entire coming-of-age ceremony designed to /highlight/ that knowledge.

 

And yet, none of them have the moral courage to do so. Instead, they pretend that they have no choice. But it is only pretense.

 

I don't want to 'redeem' these people any more than I'd want to 'redeem' Doctor Destroyer. I just want them to stop living on the same planet that I do, and to *be* stopped before their monstrousness can go on to hurt any new victims.

 

Any meta that comes in and acts as judge' date=' jury, and executioner here without so much as considering what can be done to help these people recognize the nature of and overcome their problem is making the situation worse, not better.[/quote']

 

Their "problem" is that they are monstrous, evil, bastards. They make the (edited to remove Godwin reference) Xenovores look like Sailor Moon. Executing them all *is* making the situation better.

[psm]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Any meta that comes in and acts as judge, jury, and executioner here without so much as considering what can be done to help these people recognize the nature of and overcome their problem is making the situation worse, not better.

 

The majority of your post was way too abstract for me to comment on. Sorry. As for that last part I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, there may be no solution. What do you do when you realize the people of Osemla don't want to change. Obviously, they are committing an act of evil. How does one act? Do you punish them for making a value judgement that places the health, security, and happiness of the greater good over one life?

 

Additionally, would we feel different if the child was retarded, or an adult or say a criminal? I know this has nothing to do with anything we've been talking about but I wonder if it would change people's opinions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

The majority of your post was way too abstract for me to comment on. Sorry. As for that last part I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, there may be no solution. What do you do when you realize the people of Osemla don't want to change. Obviously, they are committing an act of evil. How does one act? Do you punish them for making a value judgement that places the health, security, and happiness of the greater good over one life?

 

Additionally, would we feel different if the child was retarded, or an adult or say a criminal? I know this has nothing to do with anything we've been talking about but I wonder if it would change people's opinions.

 

If you want to change the facts to make this a tough call (from the perspective of "Objective Observer", rather than "involved participant", anyway), let's say that:

 

(a) The Pact which allows this to work was made seven generations ago, by the ancestors of the current population.

 

( Any person born in the town will die within minutes should they leave it

 

© If the suffering child dies (which he will if removed from the town, by the way) and a replacement is not selected by the following sunset, the entire population of the town will die in excruciating agony.

 

And, of course, there is absolutely no way for the heroes to modify these results in any way.

[psm]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

If you want to change the facts to make this a tough call (from the perspective of "Objective Observer", rather than "involved participant", anyway), let's say that:

 

(a) The Pact which allows this to work was made seven generations ago, by the ancestors of the current population.

 

( Any person born in the town will die within minutes should they leave it

 

© If the suffering child dies (which he will if removed from the town, by the way) and a replacement is not selected by the following sunset, the entire population of the town will die in excruciating agony.

 

And, of course, there is absolutely no way for the heroes to modify these results in any way.

 

 

Touche.

 

But I wasn't changing the scenario to support/oppose an argument. It was just a thought I had when I was writing my response. Kind of like changing the special effect to get a better understanding of the mechanics (yes, I speak Hero).

[Zed-F]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

Zed' date=' they are not making an error out of ignorance, they are deliberately choosing a monstrous act of evil. Nobody can reasonably claim that they didn't know that the systematic sacrifice and slow murder of children was a bad thing. [/quote'] Of course not. That's not my argument.

 

And they *DID* have a choice. The story emphasizes deliberately that any one of them /could/ choose to end it at any time. They have an entire coming-of-age ceremony designed to /highlight/ that knowledge.

By effectively suiciding their entire community, or so they believe. Excuse me if I don't think that's a very good alternative. They believe it's the only alternative. Fortunately for them, none of my PCs would accept that. 99% or more of dichotomies are false dichotomies. There's always another way, so why not help them see it too?

 

And yet, none of them have the moral courage to do so. Instead, they pretend that they have no choice. But it is only pretense.

I'll agree they lack moral courage. But why not help them find it? Help them find it by helping them realize that they have options that don't amount to suicide.

 

I don't want to 'redeem' these people any more than I'd want to 'redeem' Doctor Destroyer. I just want them to stop living on the same planet that I do, and to *be* stopped before their monstrousness can go on to hurt any new victims.

 

Their "problem" is that they are monstrous, evil, bastards. They make the (edited to remove Godwin reference) Xenovores look like Sailor Moon. Executing them all *is* making the situation better.

Come on. They make one mistake in judgement, when their entire society is designed to support making that same error, and suddenly they lose all possibility of recognizing their mistake and learning from it? You can tell that at a glance, on first inspection, without investigation or giving them an opportunity to learn better?

 

That's called condemning the person rather than condemning the crime. That's called an absence of compassion, an absence of mercy. The Old Testament without the New Testament. And frankly, I wouldn't want to live in a world governed solely by the Old Testament. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, hm? Or maybe not, at least not until he's sure that there's no way that stone's going to rebound onto himself.

 

Maybe Starguard can instantly tell whether these people are irredeemably evil by looking at their souls. I very much doubt anyone else without similar power can.

[incrdbil]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

 

And, of course, there is absolutely no way for the heroes to modify these results in any way.

 

Is there a reason to even address such implausible, ridiculous situations? Since the dilemma on exists in such impossible, implausible conditions asto make all answers wrong, there is little point in entertaining it.

 

If forced to make a choice-- walk away or bing it all down, then they all die. But the atrocity does not continue.

[Chuckg]

Re: WWYCD: Omelas

 

My response to Zed-F's last post can be summed up in two sentences:

 

If you're going to pretend that the ritualistic torture and slow death of a child is a mere "mistake in judgement", I can't find the words.

 

And it is indeed 'condemning the crime' to go 'you have committed the crime of systematic child murder in order to buy yourself a more comfortable life, you are hereby sentenced to death, good-bye.'