Physical and Energy Defense

[GAZZA]

OK, here's a question: why are they different?

 

Certainly the way the body resists being punched is different to the way it resists being burned. But it's also different to the way it resists being shot, stabbed, electrocuted, frozen, or sliced up with "frickin' laser beams". We don't have a Bullet Defense, Flame Defense, and so forth...

 

... well, actually, sometimes we do. I mean, certainly you can buy +ED, "only for fire" and the like. That's point 1.

 

Most characters have a PD and ED that are very close to one another. That's point 2.

 

While being strong no doubt helps you shrug off being punched as hard, and being healthy probably means that you are less likely to have a heart attack from an electric shock, most characters don't leave their PD and ED at whatever the figured value is anyway. That's point 3. And in passing it is far less clear that your physical strength helps you resist bullets and yet does nothing against fire, for example.

 

So when you consider these points together (1 - it is possible to simulate specific special effect defenses already; 2 - PD and ED are often identical or close; 3 - they are generally bought up from their figured values in one way or another), I reach this conclusion: do we really need to separate them?

 

You can find references to DEF all over the Hero rules. It's like even the creators couldn't be bothered separating the two most of the time. Can't we just have a DEF characteristic that has, as its figured base, "(STR + CON)/10" and costs 2 per point? Would this be worthwhile?

[Black Rose]

Re: Physical and Energy Defense

 

I think this is what is referred to as an "artefact" - something that's been there for so long that, while it's original purpose might no longer exist, the thing itself lingers on. While I know this idea would lead to more bookkeeping, I like it, so bear with me:

 

One figured DEFense characteristic (STR+CON)/10: 2/+1, NCM 8. Limited DEF formats (Only vs. Fire/Lightning/Bullets/Magic/Etc.) may be created as desired with an appropriate Limitation; recommended minimum is -1/2 for a very common attack form (all physical, all energy).

 

Then just list all your DEFs in a column:

 

Overall DEF            12
Energy DEF             20
Electricity DEF        30

 

for example.

 

Thoughts?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Physical and Energy Defense

 

Why is there two of this thread?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Physical and Energy Defense

 

Because it creates diversity and allows for dynamic characters.

 

In real life, there are some people that can put their hand in an open flame and not feel any pain and rarely get burned. These same people can still be hit in the back of the head with a bat and knocked out.

[GAZZA]

Re: Physical and Energy Defense

 

And such people could be represented with appropriate limitations on extra DEF.

 

Player characters? Almost always nearly identical. Bases, Vehicles, etc? They've already merged the two stats.

 

If it hadn't "always been that way", I doubt there would be anyone yelling that we should separate it.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Physical and Energy Defense

 

My experience has definitly been different from yours GAZZA.

 

My bricks almost always have equal PD and ED. If one is higher then the other, it's always PD. Latest brick has 40 PD/25 ED

 

My Martial Artists and Speedsters rarely have equal PD and ED. If one is higher then the other, it's almost always PD. Last martial artist had 18 PD/12 ED. Don't remember the speedsters exact totals, but he had +10 PD only vs Move Through/Move By Damage.

 

My Energy blasters sometimes have equal PD and ED. IF one is higher then the other, it's almost always ED. Last flying energy projector had 18 PD/58 ED. Though about 30 of that ED was Linked and Only Up to Amount Rolled by Absorption.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Physical and Energy Defense

 

And such people could be represented with appropriate limitations on extra DEF.

 

Player characters? Almost always nearly identical. Bases, Vehicles, etc? They've already merged the two stats.

 

If it hadn't "always been that way", I doubt there would be anyone yelling that we should separate it.

I personally like more characteristics than less. I also think that there is a good point where things get too complicated.

 

As such PD, ED, and MD is enough. I can build the worlds best Mentalist with the ability to put up energy shields but be taken down from nothing more than a rock thrown by an angry mob.

 

Or I could play Null whose system shielding has large vulnerabilities to Energy attacks due to lack of field testing but able to successfully tangle with bricks and her unusual mind gives her decent Mental Defense to make Mind Controls and Telepathy weak enough to avoid severe problems but not so strong that they can't knock her out after a couple of well placed Ego Attacks.

 

I also of the camp that Comeliness should be a Characteristic, not a Perk. But that is another discussion for another day.

[Narratio]

Re: Physical and Energy Defense

 

Agree with Supersquirrel.

 

It doesn't detract from the game and adds another area where we can tweak to create what we feel is right for a character.

 

Can't take too many things away, otherwise we end up with the DC and Marvel RPG's....

[zornwil]

Re: Physical and Energy Defense

 

A friend of mine pointed out it's basically a gamist constuct to ensure a balance with attacks and defenses (if a character is even with PD/ED, then normally they'll get more pounded by characters who attack with one or the other primarily, or if a character loads up with one, they can be virtually invulnerable to damage from it in a "balanced" fight while being quite vulnerable to the other), even more important when Champions was made way back when there was no PowDef and fewer other such defenses/attacks.

 

However, as SS and Narratio say, I like it, it lends to a diversity that makes sense to me. It even "feels" right to me in at least some if not most genres. And the examples of PD/ED/MD create an expandable view into what one can do with the core system, as in how I've created SD for Supernatural Defense (created it independently, long ago, of anything in Fantasy Hero, which has a similar Arrcane Defense) based on INT. I'm not attempting to justify that for anyone else's games, I'm just pointing out that it has had a useful place as demonstrative of how the system can be expanded.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Physical and Energy Defense

 

Lumping PD and ED together would make FW and Adjustment powers disproportionately powerful.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Physical and Energy Defense

 

Lumping PD and ED together would make FW and Adjustment powers disproportionately powerful.

Exactly right.

 

Besides, I like having separate Characteristics for physical and energy defenses. (While my own characters tend to have equal PD & ED, many of the characters in our campaign, including some villains, have significantly different PD and ED. Our team's EB actually has higher ED than our brick, but his PD is a full third less.) It not only allows better differentiation between types of characters, but it lets us buy those differences without the complications of applting partial Limitations to a unified DEF characteristic in order to create that differentiation. If anything, I'd be more inclined to give vehicles and objects separate PD and ED than I would the reverse.