What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

The interesting thing is that nobody seems to want to play Namor.

 

I played a Namor homage for a while. He didn't match up perfecly, for ex I didn't make him Atlantean Royalty. He was an effective character. Flying Brick as noted, boosted stats when immersed matched up with a Drain Susceptibility from heat/dessication worked quite nicely. The GM made sure they came up in-game, for good or ill. I recall being knocked back into a fountain at one point, and in another game a character whose SFX triggered the Aid didn't know he had it and kept on attacking - I don't believe he ever went out of his way to trigger the bonus.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Why can't we ever see DNPCs having relationship issues' date=' or drug/alcohol problems, or car accidents, or serious illnesses, or problems in school, or loving/hating the PC's heroic identity, or...? Well, you get the idea.[/quote']

 

A PC in my campaign had his DNPC brother go from a rarely appearing legal counsel brother to gaining superpowers (only revealed to the other player after several encounters with the character) to becoming a member of the superteam, as his power level rose and his apearance roll moved with it.

 

During the period, he also romanced a female member of the team, partially before and partially after the PC discovered his identity.

 

The revelation of his ID to the character came in a "blue booking" moment. The player's jaw dropped and eyes widened as he read the page, and he (player) was pretty much speechless for 5 or 10 minutes trying to compose his character's reaction.

 

[A similar blue book which had the character discuss his true identity with his paramour, closing the page with "And you are facing Dr Apocalypse" and opening the next page with "You awaken with a start, out of breath. A cold sweat drips down your back." was equally interesting.]

 

My players are quite good differntiating IC from OOC. Several characters couldn't understand why the PC who was generaly down on new members ("You're still on probation, you know" to a member with the team for a dozen adventures) suddenly was treating the newest character like he'd founded the team, for example.

 

Does that count?

[Metaphysician]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

The interesting thing is that nobody seems to want to play Namor.

 

After all, he's a perfectly kicka** flying brick, who just happens to be an aquatic character. I can't see the problem, except, perhaps, that he burns a lot of points on non-combat stuff. His need for water isn't a bigger/worse weakness than that of many other characters, and, for that matter, isn't as absolute as Aquaman's anyway.

 

Then again, that makes you wonder how many characters with weaknesses actually get played. Maybe that's a genre bit people don't like.

 

In any case, the Namor niche could be worth exploring for players looking for something a little bit different. And if anyone gives you lip about "talking to fish", well...

 

I tend not to be too found of arbitrary weaknesses, myself, though the need for exposure to water periodically isn't that bad.

[Metaphysician]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

I know it's a genre bit that a lot of GMs don't seem to like. Many GMs seem to prefer 'simple builds' with as few limitations as possible' date=' possibly on the grounds that use of limitations encourages munchkinism. This seems silly to me. All you have to do to keep things balanced is to enforce the lims, or allow them to enforce themselves in many cases. But many GMs don't seem to want to be bothered.[/quote']

 

Well, the traditional form for alot of the weaknesses is "total powerlessness," which is not especially fun to RP. It also violates some of the metagame rules of thumb, like "try not to have flaws that are totally crippling."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

By the way, the thread "Limitations I'd like to see more of" in the discussion section indicates a number of people find Supers patrolling to be silly.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

By the way' date=' the thread "Limitations I'd like to see more of" in the discussion section indicates a number of people find Supers patrolling to be silly.[/quote']For certain types of high-end characters or campaigns it would be silly. For others, such as as low end supers or Dark Champions game it would be essential.

 

Patrolling for supers would be just like patrolling for cops: It's as much about deterrence as it is about arresting criminals. It means that muggers are thinking "I want to take that old lady's purse, but I know Batman frequents this neighborhood and I really like my kneecaps intact. I think I'll go down to the pub and play pool instead."

 

Supers don't generally need to worry about due process.

[Zed-F]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Even for Dark Champions games and low-end supers, if there's enough stuff going on in the background of the gameworld, there should usually be stuff available for the PCs to investigate pretty much any time. Loose ends from previous plots, contacts to catch up with, and so forth. Resorting to patrolling, for me, is a sign that either the game world is not very 'alive', that the player has missed an important plot point or clue somewhere, or that we've just reached the end of a story arc.

[Zed-F]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Well' date=' the traditional form for alot of the weaknesses is "total powerlessness," which is not especially fun to RP. It also violates some of the metagame rules of thumb, like "try not to have flaws that are totally crippling."[/quote']

I'll agree that the PC that builds a character with 10 across the board for stats, no non-combat skills to speak of, and everything bought through the same overarching limitation, would be a bit frustrating to play once that limitation got exercised. But it's quite possible to build characters that have limitations but are still viable when some or all of those limitations are exercised. Just add a decent selection of skills, stats that are capable of fighting at the agent level, and perhaps have some powers limited in one way while others are not limited or are limited in a different, unrelated way. I consider these kinds of characters to be much more interesting than plain vanilla 'limitationless' characters because there's more you can do to challenge them, but at the same time they tend to have more tools with which to address those challenges.

 

Too bad so many GMs consider this as being munchkiny or unbalanced. Especially when most of the other players seem to prefer the vanilla limitationless approach.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Even for Dark Champions games and low-end supers' date=' if there's enough stuff going on in the background of the gameworld, there should usually be stuff available for the PCs to investigate pretty much any time. Loose ends from previous plots, contacts to catch up with, and so forth. Resorting to patrolling, for me, is a sign that either the game world is not very 'alive', that the player has missed an important plot point or clue somewhere, or that we've just reached the end of a story arc.[/quote']I think you're overstating the case. Batman, Daredevil, and Spider-Man still go out on patrol; and I doubt anyone would claim their campaign world is out of ideas. Patrolling makes total sense for street-level heroes; it's far less appropriate for four color types (although I would say it was obvious Mister Incredible and Elastigirl from The Incredibles also patrolled their city.).

 

In our new DC campaign we tend to start every episode "on patrol" (often looking for signs of what our Contacts and Streetwise rolls have told us was going on.) and the adventure comes as the heroes detect something unusual. Note that our group isn't a team even though they often work together in an ad hoc fashion; even their patrol methods and patterns are very different. Raptor, who flies, can cover the whole of Hudson City in about an hour. Justicar, who glides or swings, tend to stick to particular sections of town looking for unusual patterns of activity. If he needs to travel to another part of town he generally rides on the roof of an elevated train. The heroes have a "semi-scheduled" rendevous at midnight on the top of the city's Catholic cathedral but those meetings only actually take place a couple of times per week. They also bought Radio Shack walkie-talkies to communicate as needed. (And since an assassin tried to kill Raptor in our last game session when he went to the meeting, we'll probably have to change the meeting location.) A third heroine, Artemis, has even less connection, and has neither a radio nor a meeting place with either other PC. She also patrols via Superleap, but tends to stay close tol the university and downtown.

[Zed-F]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

In our new DC campaign we tend to start every episode "on patrol" (often looking for signs of what our Contacts and Streetwise rolls have told us was going on.)

See, if you're following up on what contacts and streetwise rolls have provided, I would characterize that as investigation, not just patrolling. I suppose in part it depends on just what one means by 'patrolling.' To me, patrolling means wandering around more or less at random, hoping something will turn up. That's good for deterrence value, but not much else, in my books.

 

Batman, Daredevil, and Spidey might go out on patrol, but unless I miss my guess usually not in the middle of a comic book. Only at the very beginning, before they have any clues relevant to the current story arc to follow up on. Hence my comment that if I'm resorting to patrolling, it's because there's literally nothing else going on to investigate. At the beginning of a new story arc, I'd rather do just what you do -- check out contacts, follow up on old loose ends, and do a bit of impromptu streetwise investigation -- rather than resort to wandering around and waiting for inspiration to strike in the form of some random crime to stop or good deed to do. YMMV.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

I'll agree that the PC that builds a character with 10 across the board for stats, no non-combat skills to speak of, and everything bought through the same overarching limitation, would be a bit frustrating to play once that limitation got exercised. But it's quite possible to build characters that have limitations but are still viable when some or all of those limitations are exercised. Just add a decent selection of skills, stats that are capable of fighting at the agent level, and perhaps have some powers limited in one way while others are not limited or are limited in a different, unrelated way. I consider these kinds of characters to be much more interesting than plain vanilla 'limitationless' characters because there's more you can do to challenge them, but at the same time they tend to have more tools with which to address those challenges.

 

Too bad so many GMs consider this as being munchkiny or unbalanced. Especially when most of the other players seem to prefer the vanilla limitationless approach.

I totally agree. Even sans powers, almost any super should have some chance of taking down a common thug or low-level agent. In my experience being utterly helpless out of hero ID, unless it's a central part of the character's concept, is generally a sign of overly munchkinized character design. Even my old powered-armor hero Ranger could easily whip a couple of street punks out of his armor. My current PC Zl'f, even out of her hero ID, retains a SPD 4, DEX 23, and all of her martial arts maneuvers and Skills. Her primary attacks and her defenses (although not her ability to avoid getting hit!) are just as good as when she's DEX 43, SPD 9 in hero ID.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

See, if you're following up on what contacts and streetwise rolls have provided, I would characterize that as investigation, not just patrolling. I suppose in part it depends on just what one means by 'patrolling.' To me, patrolling means wandering around more or less at random, hoping something will turn up. That's good for deterrence value, but not much else, in my books.

 

Batman, Daredevil, and Spidey might go out on patrol, but unless I miss my guess usually not in the middle of a comic book. Only at the very beginning, before they have any clues relevant to the current story arc to follow up on. Hence my comment that if I'm resorting to patrolling, it's because there's literally nothing else going on to investigate. At the beginning of a new story arc, I'd rather do just what you do -- check out contacts, follow up on old loose ends, and do a bit of impromptu streetwise investigation -- rather than resort to wandering around and waiting for inspiration to strike in the form of some random crime to stop or good deed to do. YMMV.

We're basically on the same page here, I think. In character, patrolling is something a hero does to fight and deter crime. It helps establish a routine, just like going to work does for his civilian identity, and gives the GM something to work with to initiate adventures. I can't imagine ever doing nothing but random patrolling and beating up the occasional liquor store robber would be much fun as a game session, but that doesn't mean establishing a character's behavior and daily activities in and out of costume is unimportant even if they're not being role-played. Estabishing a baseline of what is "normal" by patroilling is important when you're looking for abnormal activity (or lack thereof).

 

My DC character Justicar, for example, doesn't "go see his 11- Contact in the police," he has lunch (out of costume, of course!) with his big brother, who is a lieutenant in the HCPD Organized Crime Unit (Of course, his brother is simultaneously a DNPC and a Contact). Sometimes big brother has interesting tidbits on Mafia activities; sometimes he just talks about his kids.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

The reason for going on patrol needs to be addressed as well. Daredevil and Batman go out because as self appointed defenders of the downtrodden they feel responsible if anything at all happens in their neighborhood. They're control freaks. Spidey has stated numerous times that more than half of the reason to be on patrol is to get out of the house. Web-slinging clears his head and puts him at ease. The Punisher goes on patrol because he's a psychopath looking for an opportunity to shoot some one.*

 

Whatever the motivation, utility has to be addressed as well. Spidey and Daredevil are good patrollers because their enhanceed senses can key them into anything that's happening in their vicinity that they might be able to help with. They also have the mobility to get there. Batman doesn't have that level of awareness, but between Oracle, Alfred, The Commish, and the allseeing Batputer of Agamotto he is made aware of situations pretty damn fast. His mobility is a little more limited as well, so being in the city puts him close to the action.

 

 

 

 

*I don't want to start a Punisher argument, I really don't. So if you were offended--I apologize right now.

[Zed-F]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Good points, guys.

 

Soulbarb going on patrol really wouldn't have much utility. Incidental sightings of her might increase, but from her point of view that's a bad thing, not a good thing -- she's more worried about starting a witchhunt against her than she is about any possible deterrence value patrolling might have. Moreover, she doesn't really have any enhanced senses that would help make a patrol more useful. Hence she sticks to other, more directed forms of intelligence gathering. If she needs to know what's going down on the streets, she's far more likely to do some research on the net, or pick up a few toughs (literally) and browbeat the information out of them, than she is to wander around and look for herself. Besides, if she hasn't heard anything over the grapevine, seen anything in the papers, or what have you to give her a starting point for an investigation, there's always homework that needs to get done. Soulbarb tends to go out in heroic ID only when she has a good reason to. Despite this, she is nevertheless a fairly active heroine.

[McCoy]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Batman' date=' Daredevil, and Spidey might go out on patrol, but unless I miss my guess usually not in the middle of a comic book. Only at the very beginning, before they have any clues relevant to the current story arc to follow up on. Hence my comment that if I'm resorting to patrolling, it's because there's literally nothing else going on to investigate. [/quote']

Before he had access to a Danger Room, I established with my GM that my character Cheeta was patroling while training. He would go out and run fo an hour every evening, usually covering between 60 and 100 miles. He also had a police band scanner that he listened to during that time, and responded to any calls of hostage situation or shots fired (never know when someone who can catch bullets in mid air is going to come in handy in those situations). So I considered it multitasking, practicing with his power, increasing his area knowledge (deliberately picking streets and neighborhoods he had not been in lately to see what has changed), and being available if needed by the police. It also had the option of being a ready-made plot hook for the GM, any adventure could be stated out "While Cheeta is on patrol. . .." Would it really have been better for him to spend that hour a night on a custom-built treadmill?

[Trebuchet]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Good points, guys.

 

Soulbarb going on patrol really wouldn't have much utility. Incidental sightings of her might increase, but from her point of view that's a bad thing, not a good thing -- she's more worried about starting a witchhunt against her than she is about any possible deterrence value patrolling might have. Moreover, she doesn't really have any enhanced senses that would help make a patrol more useful. Hence she sticks to other, more directed forms of intelligence gathering. If she needs to know what's going down on the streets, she's far more likely to do some research on the net, or pick up a few toughs (literally) and browbeat the information out of them, than she is to wander around and look for herself. Besides, if she hasn't heard anything over the grapevine, seen anything in the papers, or what have you to give her a starting point for an investigation, there's always homework that needs to get done. Soulbarb tends to go out in heroic ID only when she has a good reason to. Despite this, she is nevertheless a fairly active heroine.

Whereas Zl'f, being a more "Avengers-class" heroine, doesn't patrol at all. That's not to say she wouldn't intervene if she saw something going down while in Secret ID, but patrolling is no more something done by MidGuard's members than it is by the Avengers'. It's all about "scale." Patrolling is done by "city level" heroes; it's usually out of place for "world-level" types. I'd no more expect Iron Man to be busting liquor-store robbers than I'd expect Doctor Doom to be robbing one.

[Kirby]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

I like the idea of patrolling as well. For four color games, it is much like the police patrolling as opposed to all hanging out at the police station waiting for something to happen. There are good times to be had and good reasons to be at the base waiting for a call saying "the country/world is in danger," just as there are good reasons to be out patrolling. Either to stop a crime about to happen or in progress, or to respond to one that's nearby, taking less time than it would had you been at base.

 

Now, once the 'big plot' is going on, there may be less time for patrolling, but while comic books generally don't have two criminal plots going at once, the real world does, as do many a games (or have sub plots that can be picked up on). In the last DC game I was in, the GM was good at long, mystery plots where you needed lots of pieces to stop the grand plan. This wasn't going to just fall in your hands, and one could patrol while investigating leads.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Before he had access to a Danger Room' date=' I established with my GM that my character Cheeta was patroling while training. He would go out and run fo an hour every evening, usually covering between 60 and 100 miles. He also had a police band scanner that he listened to during that time, and responded to any calls of hostage situation or shots fired (never know when someone who can catch bullets in mid air is going to come in handy in those situations). So I considered it multitasking, practicing with his power, increasing his area knowledge (deliberately picking streets and neighborhoods he had not been in lately to see what has changed), and being available if needed by the police. It also had the option of being a ready-made plot hook for the GM, any adventure could be stated out "While Cheeta is on patrol. . .." Would it really have been better for him to spend that hour a night on a custom-built treadmill?[/quote']Great example, McCoy. If our campaign had been a city-based game, Zl'f would undoubtably have done something similar as training (While she runs daily as part of her training, she does it in a military-restricted forest so as to avoid observation.)

 

Ultimately, patrolling is nothing more (or less) than a regular plot device for the GM.

[Kirby]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Other genre bits I like include" bases and vehicles. When you have a team, a base is essential and vehicles help you get around the city without de factoing that "no special movement powers boy" happens to go from one side of the city to the other without being noticed or hindered. I also like to have PCs be seen in their bought vehicles and to use them in combat every now and then. For the base, social interaction can go on there as well as little things. In the last DC game I played in (sounds familiar), my character would wax and mop the floors once a month. Being the "strongest" at 40 STR, he loved working out in the gym. And with his N-Ray vision, he liked to time his workout the same time his 'crush' worked out as well.

 

As a GM, I've always wanted players to build a base so that I could invade it eventually. This has only happend once, though it was more a "ninja from intrigued business places listening device while team is attacked by supervillain organization."

[Ura-Maru]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

I'd no more expect Iron Man to be busting liquor-store robbers than I'd expect Doctor Doom to be robbing one.

 

“Doom MUST HAVE his Raspberry Cider Jack! His thirst is beyond the ken of your feeble intellect! He has not the time, nor the inclination to deal with your petty ATMs!â€

 

---

“Besides, Doom is a little short this month!â€

[Cancer]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

The Heros getting captured.

 

Why does this push the player's buttons?

 

Players don't like it in general when bad things happen to their characters. Or when their characters get 'beaten' for any reason. They like to have control over their characters and to have a certain freedom of action. Not to mention not having the humiliation of being captured. It means the villains have 'won'' date=' even if only temporarily. Most players I know play games for empowerment, not to feel trapped and helpless. They get enough of that at the office.[/quote']

 

I admit I'm about the worst possible in terms of fighting capture. I'm notorious among our group for it, in fact. Mutant For Hire's analysis could be correct. I haven't yet had a character suicide in order to prevent capture, but it's come close.

 

I have very real problems with the whole pulp genre (and to a lesser extent, supers), in that I just don't get it. Usually the one character I can identify best with in a typical pulp adventure is the villain ... a high-INT person with a vision that has been dissed by society their entire life, and is pissed that the people who get cast as heroes are low INT, high DEX/COM types. Logically, when you capture someone, you should find out what they know, and then dispose of them, and it doesn't make sense to me when that isn't what happens.

 

Capture should be the best possible outcome for the villain, not the worst. I see this "capture and gloat" flaw as the worst, the most overused plot cliche there is .. and it seems to define the pulp genre. It requires that all villains must have the same internal requirement to fail, because the first thing they do when confronted by an opponent remotely capable of defeating them (under optimal conditions for the opponent) is give them the exact means to make that defeat occur.

 

Tell me again why the "heroes" in such a story are worthy of that label? I just don't get it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Logically' date=' when you capture someone, you should find out what they know, and then dispose of them, [i']and it doesn't make sense to me when that isn't what happens[/i].

**********************************************************

It requires that all villains must have the same internal requirement to fail, because the first thing they do when confronted by an opponent remotely capable of defeating them (under optimal conditions for the opponent) is give them the exact means to make that defeat occur.

 

"Overconfidence" - you got the 15 or 20 points. Now you have to play it.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Usually the one character I can identify best with in a typical pulp adventure is the villain ... a high-INT person with a vision that has been dissed by society their entire life' date=' and is pissed that the people who get cast as heroes are low INT, high DEX/COM types.[/quote']

I have to admit, I tend to share this viewpoint as well, but in Pulp's defense, there are folks like Doc Savage blowing the bell curve, and for that matter, there are a number of supergenius heroes. Admittedly, they tend to be super-everything but hey...

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

Sounds like you're talking about the classic writing device "make the villain look smarter by making the heroes dumber." It is very annoying when you see the heroes suddenly act as if they were lobotomized, but there are some good stories out there that don't depend upon it. It takes more effort to write that story, though.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: What in genre bit do you like that no one else seems to enjoy ?

 

I'd really like to play a classic silver age type villain' date=' single minded schtick and all. [/quote']

 

Umm Damocles Directive is going to be calling for players around :check calendar: Halloween.

 

Wanna play?

 

Hawksmoor