It Costs Too Much!

[Dust Raven]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

A second for the ‘exotic life support’ 10 points to be immune to diseases' date=' 10 points to be immune to drugs, and you still probably need power defense to stop drains built as drugs or diseases. Eh.[/quote']

Absolutely. That's 20 points that really should be spend elswhere. I see nothing wrong with simply costing them both together around 5 points. Or maybe 3 points for each of them. Maybe 1 point for a rare-uncommon disiase/poison, 2 points for a common, and 3 points for all disease or all poison. Granted, if you wanted a character immune to the common cold and the flu, it's cheaper to just be immune to everything. But I way, why not? If it's really that important to be immune to a few things but still vital you're affected by disease X, then just slap on a -0, or maybe the GM will just not bring the stuff you're actually vulnerable to in game, thereby making the points you spend worth it (never harmed by any disease that way).

 

Ego’s overpriced in most games. In settings with no mentalists, its only use is defensive presence, which costs half a point, and Ego Rolls, which probably don’t come up that often. Willpower should be a big deal in any heroic fiction, but the game just doesn’t use it for much.

 

Though even in campaigns WITH mentalists, I’m still waiting for a good justification as why it costs twice what Strength does.

 

In my opinion, willpower is used for quite a bit by the game. Then again, I'm usually the GM, and I enjoy putting the heroes in situations that bother them, and ask for EGO Rolls to continue on, suffer through, or ignore certain things that affect them. I don't over do it, but it sometimes makes the difference between a hero and guy with superpowers.

 

As far as why it costs so much, compare it with the cost of DEX. EGO provides a Combat Value, just like DEX does, and has effectively the same cost (after taking into acount that DEX figures SPD). If it's a game where mental powers are just as common as normal attacks, then everybody is paying about the same for DEX and EGO to maintain combat values. If mental powers are a bit rare, then mentalists are paying a bit extra for their characters so they can take advantage of characters who haven't bought as much of that expensive, useless, EGO thing.

[Agent X]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I don't feel that Damage Shield costs too much. If it was any cheaper' date=' you would end up having characters running around and into each other like bumper cars.[/quote'] I played 4th Ed. for years with Damage Shield costed at +1/2 with no need for continuous. What you are predicting didn't happen.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

While I recognize that its not likely to change any time soon (because of how it would affect preexisiting characters and suppliments), philisophically I would be in favor of decoupling either REC, STUN or both from STR as figured stats and using EGO instead. Thus giving more value for the cost to EGO, and less for STR. I see the ability to bounce back from injury or remain concoius/functional after being injured as more related to willpower than raw muscle anyway.

[Agent X]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Yeah' date=' but 20 years ago there weren't people playing Paladins in Diablo doing the same basic technique. I see people turn on Aura of Thorns at level 20 with a Necromancer with an army of skeltons. It is a scary, scary sight to see![/quote'] RPG vs. Video Game - different styles of play

[Ura-Maru]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

But it’s not the ‘use one end per phase’ interval that kills you when you’re drowning, it’s the fact you’re using End otherwise trying to escape drowning. The only time that particular area of life support comes up is when you are sitting there, doing nothing at all, waiting to be rescued.

 

It’s obvious ‘intended use’ is for sea mammals and the like, but it’s useless to them. It does nothing to help you if you want to, say, swim down and catch a tasty fish, because you’re using End by Swimming.

 

A recoverable charge on No Need To Breath works pretty well for this type of thing, though, as does an End Reserve. So I guess this is more ‘This power is terribly designed!’ than ‘This power costs too much!’

 

 

You don't use Psychological Limitations? Ego can be pretty useful there...and if the GM incorporates things like temptation and willpower into his/her game otherwise.

 

“I don’t think X is used enough†!= “X is not used at all.â€

 

Yes, I use psychological advantages. And yes, Ego can be used to bypass them. When appropriate. If that’s used too often, psych lims lose most of their punch.

 

And, for the record, when I was running I’d require extra Ego checks all the time, for all sorts of things, superheroic pushing included. But that was stuff I added in, precisely because I thought that willpower was underused in the core system. Saying ‘Well, you can use it for additional things!’ is agreeing with my point, not arguing it.

 

 

Hmm. Well, since it usually takes the place of both Dex and Body in mental combat, my question is: why is it so cheap in a game with mentalists?

Because mental combat is much less common than non-mental combat. Mental Defense costs half as much, and is much better at stopping mental attacks, if that’s your goal.

 

Mentalists have real problems against anyone with any mental defenses at all. Though mitigated somewhat by how useful Mental Illusions and Mind Control can be out of combat. I don’t have an easy solution, though . . . things that go against non-standard defenses should be easier to stop when going against people who have them.

 

Anyway, none of this is germaine to most fantasy, SF, and DC games, where mental attacks are rare, if not non-existant.

 

For the record, I don’t really like all ‘mentalist’ stuff being crammed under one stat, either. Because if there’s one thing that every genre with mentalists agree on, it’s that as a group, mentalists are the most stable, well adjusted people in the world. They always have a firm grip on their psychological advantages.

 

 

Yep. From monsters and animals.

 

Actually, now that I think of it, I may have caught a disease way back in first edition AD&D, when giant rats and bats had a 5% chance to infect you per bite.

 

And someone else did catch one in a much more recent game that was run by a bio major, who wanted to show off how much he knew about bacteria. The less spoken of THAT particular misadventure, the better. It involved a giant loosing control of some of the more important bodily functions.

 

Ten points seems excessive, though.

 

Wait. Vampires can catch diseases? That sucks for them. Do they sleep, too? “Man, I am TOTALLY Raziel-ing, the first chance I get!â€

 

---

Where’s the ‘long, heavy, melodramatic sigh’ smiley?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I played 4th Ed. for years with Damage Shield costed at +1/2 with no need for continuous. What you are predicting didn't happen.

I tend to agree, with the caveat that Damage Sheild should have an increased Advantage level when used in conjunction with certain other powers, the same way Autofire does.

The changes currently made to Damage Sheild makes it prohibitively expensive to use with simple attacks, thus promoting more of the massively advantaged tiny non standard attacks, due to the way advantage adding works.

 

I can't give my swordsman a counterstrike damage shild anymore without vilolating campaign limits and spending a bundle, but if I want an Autofire Penetrating 1/2d6 KA, its still doable.

Something just seems kinda wrong there.

[GamePhil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

A second for the ‘exotic life support’ 10 points to be immune to diseases' date=' 10 points to be immune to drugs, and you still probably need power defense to stop drains built as drugs or diseases. Eh.[/quote']

 

Actually, if someone gave me a character that had a Drain defined as a drug or disease, I'd require it to either be NND or have the Limitation: Not Against Targets With Immunity. But that's just me.

[GamePhil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

A second on Aid. Binary Man spent 24 points on a fighting array that was worth maybe 8 points, and that’s being stingy with the limitations.

 

I'll agree with that, but it's not proof that Aid is overpriced, only that it was "misused" in this instance. Aid without Limitations can easily go over it's cost, because you can just give it to your entire group. And then switch Multipower slots. And all with no END cost.

 

I would personally not (in general) use Aid for situations where it only affected oneself, or for the very limited use with Binary Man, because then there are less expensive ways to do it that are, to me, equally valid.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Yeah, requiring the ‘stopped by Not Affected By Poisons’ disad for chemical attacks is probably the best way to go.

 

One thing I liked about the ‘old way’ of using Body Drain for deadly poisons and the like, is that all drugs and poisons worked pretty much the same.

 

Wait. Stun gas grenades were always NND EB. Ok, ALMOST all chemical attacks. But a NND EB and a Stun Drain cost the same, so it’s easy to switch over.

 

Actually, I used to require all Power Defense be bought with a -1/2 ‘special effect’ limitation. Only vs drugs/posions, only vs. magic, like that. Because otherwise, it doesn’t really have a meaningful ‘special effect,’ beyond ‘I really hate being hit by oddball special attacks!’ Mages being resistant to having their souls sucked out or being transformed into frogs makes sense, having them be resistant to anesthetic gas really doesn’t.

 

 

You’re right about Binary Man. In retrospect, my complaint was more ‘Aid shouldn’t be used for this’ than ‘Aid is too expensive.’

 

---

While I thought the characters in Champions Universe were among the best in the Champs Universe, I had a problem with pretty much every build in the book . . . I mean, an active duty military super, who fought in two wars, with a 20 pt CVK?

[ghost-angel]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Absolutely. That's 20 points that really should be spend elswhere. I see nothing wrong with simply costing them both together around 5 points. Or maybe 3 points for each of them. Maybe 1 point for a rare-uncommon disiase/poison' date=' 2 points for a common, and 3 points for all disease or all poison. Granted, if you wanted a character immune to the common cold and the flu, it's cheaper to just be immune to everything. But I way, why not? If it's really that important to be immune to a few things but still vital you're affected by disease X, then just slap on a -0, or maybe the GM will just not bring the stuff you're actually vulnerable to in game, thereby making the points you spend worth it (never harmed by any disease that way).[/quote']

I'd actually go

1pt for uncommon disease/poison

2pt for common disease/poison

3pt for a group of diseases/poisons

5pt for all diseases/poisons.

 

Seems we all agree that 10pts is too expensive.

[prestidigitator]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I tend to agree, with the caveat that Damage Sheild should have an increased Advantage level when used in conjunction with certain other powers, the same way Autofire does.

The changes currently made to Damage Sheild makes it prohibitively expensive to use with simple attacks, thus promoting more of the massively advantaged tiny non standard attacks, due to the way advantage adding works.

 

I can't give my swordsman a counterstrike damage shild anymore without vilolating campaign limits and spending a bundle, but if I want an Autofire Penetrating 1/2d6 KA, its still doable.

Something just seems kinda wrong there.

3/2 * 3/2 = 9/4 > 1 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 2

2 * 3/2 = 3 > 1 + 1 + 1/2 = 2.5

Multiplicative Advantages...multiplicative....

[Sean Waters]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

For my addition to the list of things I suspect are too expensive....

 

#1 Aid. It was too cheap for its effectiveness in 4e, but I think (as I mentioned in another thread) that it got "overfixed" and as a result is now too expensive for the utility it provides. I haven't bent my houseruling brain to this yet, as I have no real imperative to, not running any games at present... But when I do I'm gonna give this a hard look and either drop the cost back to 5 a die and restrict the utility, or keep it at 10 but figure out how to make it a better value for the points.

 

Worth noting that Aid doesn't cost END to use (can't recall if it did in 4th ED) but that makes it, in effect, cheaper, if you take 'costs END' as a limitation.

 

My view is that Aid is OK. I mean, if you think about it, being able to boost a whole team's STR by 15 points for 25 cps is pretty sparky: that means every hth combattant is doing 3d6 more damage per hit, all of which is going through an opponents defences (assuming they had enough power to get any through before the boost). For similar points you can add 5 to the OCV and DCV of everyone on the team. Even if all this constant aiding ties up a character completely, it is well worth it.

 

When you factor in the ability (through advantages) to effect several powers or characteristics at once for not much more cost it becomes quite a killer power.

 

It is not great for self boosts, but then you can buy extra characteristics with limitations for that. In fact, with the right advantages it is pretty good for that too...

 

#2 Life Support. I get the idea of breaking life support down into its components' date=' but its gotten ridiculously expensive to have lots of life support, which hampers some designs. Making an undead or robotic character is kinda rough now, what with having to drop 20-50 points into LS just to get the right "feel" for something thats not even really supposed to be a main portion of the character. I don't know a good workaround for this tho.[/quote']

 

Bear in mind that not every undead or even robot is necessarily immune to disease and poison - they might not be effected by the same ones as normal humans, but they are not necessarily immune (a computer virus, for example, could KO a robot character but have no effect on a human.) Talk to your GM about immunities - it may be that you don't need life support at all for some things.

 

Similarly a robot or undead may be effexted by heat, cold, radiation, whatever. They may need sleep, or maybe just some down time to recharge their batteries. They might not be immortal - a vampire might completely fall apart in 70 years as might a robot. You might want they to be immortal, but I don't think they necessarily have to be to be in concept. They might even need to breath, eat, whatever BUT they might not use what a normal human does.

 

Personally I can't see the point of LS beyond eating, sleeping and breathing. I mean anything that is going to do you damage is going to ignore LS by and large, and require defences. the only thing it is really good for most of the time is triggering NND defences.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

3/2 * 3/2 = 9/4 > 1 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 2

2 * 3/2 = 3 > 1 + 1 + 1/2 = 2.5

Multiplicative Advantages...multiplicative....

LOL

OK... my bad. Wrong term

even so

Continous (+1) Damage Sheild (+1/2) applied to a 2d6 HKA (total 75pts)

 

vs

Continous(+1) Damage Sheild (+1/2) Penetrating (+1/2) Autofire (+1) 0 End (+1)

applied to a 1/2d6 RKA (total 50 points)

 

Not like you DIDN'T know what I meant , ya goit

[Sean Waters]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I should read the whole thing first eh? I see many of my points made (better) by others already

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Worth noting that Aid doesn't cost END to use (can't recall if it did in 4th ED) but that makes it, in effect, cheaper, if you take 'costs END' as a limitation.

 

My view is that Aid is OK. I mean, if you think about it, being able to boost a whole team's STR by 15 points for 25 cps is pretty sparky: that means every hth combattant is doing 3d6 more damage per hit, all of which is going through an opponents defences (assuming they had enough power to get any through before the boost). For similar points you can add 5 to the OCV and DCV of everyone on the team. Even if all this constant aiding ties up a character completely, it is well worth it.

 

When you factor in the ability (through advantages) to effect several powers or characteristics at once for not much more cost it becomes quite a killer power.

 

It is not great for self boosts, but then you can buy extra characteristics with limitations for that. In fact, with the right advantages it is pretty good for that too...

Not saying that Aid isn't still usable, but I think that it still needs some tweaking to get back into a balanced utility.

The No End cost bit is new, and does help offset some of the price hike.

OTOH, the fact that they split Healing and Aid decreass the value of AID some, and the most "per Steve" ruling on Fade Rates for adjustment powers pretty much kills the idea of a small aid with an increased maximum that takes several intervals to build up, because each additional roll of the aid dice adds another 5 points to the fade rate (If I understand properly... I know multiple applications of an adjustment power seems to work like this now... I'm a little less clear on Continious adjustment powers).

I could probably use Succor for most of the effects I'd like to do, but I still think Aid needs a bit of something more if its gonna stay at 10 per die

 

Bear in mind that not every undead or even robot is necessarily immune to disease and poison - they might not be effected by the same ones as normal humans, but they are not necessarily immune (a computer virus, for example, could KO a robot character but have no effect on a human.) Talk to your GM about immunities - it may be that you don't need life support at all for some things.

 

Similarly a robot or undead may be effexted by heat, cold, radiation, whatever. They may need sleep, or maybe just some down time to recharge their batteries. They might not be immortal - a vampire might completely fall apart in 70 years as might a robot. You might want they to be immortal, but I don't think they necessarily have to be to be in concept. They might even need to breath, eat, whatever BUT they might not use what a normal human does.

Yeah, all of this crossed my mind, which is why I mentioned the cost as 20 to 50 points worth of LS for background LS for a particular character type

Personally I can't see the point of LS beyond eating, sleeping and breathing. I mean anything that is going to do you damage is going to ignore LS by and large, and require defences. the only thing it is really good for most of the time is triggering NND defences.

And THIS... right here... is the problem with expensive LS... it's a passive defense that doesn't DO anything unless the attack is specifically built to allow LS as a defence.

I try and allow for such things on the fly in my games, as I suspect most reasonable GM's do.

But I've played in several games, especially at Cons, where LS has had NO effect on powers, even ones that sound like a particular LS should have an effect.

Whats the point of spending 20 points to be immune to all terresrial diseases and poisons if everything you encounter can ignore them with impunity?

[prestidigitator]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

LOL

OK... my bad. Wrong term

even so

Continous (+1) Damage Sheild (+1/2) applied to a 2d6 HKA (total 75pts)

 

vs

Continous(+1) Damage Sheild (+1/2) Penetrating (+1/2) Autofire (+1) 0 End (+1)

applied to a 1/2d6 RKA (total 50 points)

 

Not like you DIDN'T know what I meant , ya goit

I knew exactly. I was just using your point as a convenient excuse to further my Ultimate Plan of futhering multiplicative, rather than the current additive, Advantages. Congratulations. You are now on my side whether or not you knew it or wanted to be. Mwa ha ha ha ha!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I knew exactly. I was just using your point as a convenient excuse to further my Ultimate Plan of futhering multiplicative' date=' rather than the current additive, Advantages. Congratulations. You are now on my side whether or not you knew it or wanted to be. Mwa ha ha ha ha! [/quote']

[casualplayer]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Man, Increased KB shouldn't even exist. It should be DC bought Only for doing KB. It's not too expensive, it's just a bad idea.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I don’t know. I think a better way of doing it would be a 1/2 limitation that removes one of the KB dice. So you’d actually get KB almost every time, but you wouldn’t have the ‘occasionally fly back 20 inches and take 20d6, but half the time get none’ scenario you have now.

[zornwil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I don't feel that Damage Shield costs too much. If it was any cheaper' date=' you would end up having characters running around and into each other like bumper cars.[/quote']

My play experience from 4th edition and, I think, prior, but anyway surely 4th era was this simply didn't happen.

[zornwil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I've always found the Adjustment schemas mostly a bit overpriced. I allow them for the same cost to include range inherently although they're more likely limited as Power Defense = INT/5.

 

PS - but I realize I am in the extreme minority

[incrdbil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

#2 Life Support. I get the idea of breaking life support down into its components, but its gotten ridiculously expensive to have lots of life support, which hampers some designs. Making an undead or robotic character is kinda rough now, what with having to drop 20-50 points into LS just to get the right "feel" for something thats not even really supposed to be a main portion of the character. I don't know a good workaround for this tho.

 

I sort of fudge some parts of the LS. The Age limitation stuff--I just work it as part of the special effect. My characters won't get to use it--I know of no campaign I plan to play out over 100 years of active time. The immunity to all; toxins and diseases bit--maybe for a heropic campaign, I could see that; currently I have no players looking to purchase that advantage, put I'd let them have it for a severely doscountedf cost (3 points each, but only applies ot those effects not paid for by some other character with points).

 

Considering the 'magic' that allows powers to exists int he Champions Universe goes away in the 21st century, it seems a bit of a scam to charge a player points for immortality they won't actually get to use once they get older. Just get a plastic surgeon as a contact.

 

I also am contemplating making a discount price on multiple safe environments.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Considering the 'magic' that allows powers to exists int he Champions Universe goes away in the 21st century' date=' it seems a bit of a scam to charge a player points for immortality they won't actually get to use once they get older.[/quote']

Hoo boy! Don't take that anywhere near the "Recton the CU" thread!

[incrdbil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Hoo boy! Don't take that anywhere near the "Recton the CU" thread!

 

why, thank you for the invitation

[Lucius]

It Costs Too Much!

 

Considering the 'magic' that allows powers to exists int he Champions Universe goes away in the 21st century, it seems a bit of a scam to charge a player points for immortality they won't actually get to use once they get older. Just get a plastic surgeon as a contact.

.

 

Which matters if, and only if, you are playing in their "universe."

 

I personally am not so sure that Aid isn't currently overpriced; although the poll I am running on the matter seems to say that the price change hasn't made a difference (perhaps because it's also END free now.)

 

I think part of the problem people are having is not so much that some things are "overpriced" as because "Active Point Limits" to campaigns are just plain a bad idea. That is what leads to things like somebody taking, say, a 6d6 Radius or 8d6 Explosive blast, and finding that it's not doing much - because everyone's defenses are set for that straight up 12d6 direct attack. Now, if you want to limit DAMAGE, and say "no attacks over 12d6" or whatever, THAT might make sense. Then you can go ahead and take your Damage Shield up to a level where it's a credible threat (paying full points for the privelige of course.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks I mispelled "privilege" there.......