It Costs Too Much!

[Fedifensor]

I'm sure this has been discussed in the past, but since Steve doesn't answer these questions on the Rules Questions board, I thought I'd revive the topic.

 

Basically, what powers in 5ER are overpriced for their effect?

 

I guess I'll go first, with my greatest annoyance in 5ER - Damage Shield.

 

At an effective +1 1/2 advantage (+1/2 for Damage Shield, +1 for the mandatory Continuous), the power is ineffective in any game that enforces Active Point limits. For example, a starting superhero game with 60 AP allows a character to fire a 12d6 EB. However, those same 60 AP only allow a 4 1/2d6 EB Damage Shield, which won't even penetrate the average DEF with its average roll of 16 Stun.

 

There is an exception to this rule, by using powers that don't target traditional defenses and something I call 'Advantage Stacking'. Basically, while a 4 1/2d6 Damage Shield isn't all that useful in a standard 350-point superhero game, a 2d6 NND Autofire Damage Shield at 0 END is incredibly effective, to the point of being an exploit. However, as this is more of a general weakness of the system than something specific to Damage Shield, I don't really consider it a justification for the high cost of DS.

 

Anyone else annoyed with the cost of Damage Shield, or other 5ER powers?

[ajackson]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Pretty much all continuous powers, unless they go against exotic defenses, are overpriced.

 

Area effect attacks are only reasonably priced if you allow people to exceed active point limits -- 6d6 area effect is pretty much useless in a 12d6 game, though it's certainly worth 30 points to not need to worry about DCV and hit multiple people.

[Mike W]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Agreed. Most of the cost problems are on Advantages, not individual powers, except of course for Shapeshift.

 

*Ducks incoming flame war*

[JmOz]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

As for damage shield:

 

My fix is that it is a +1/2 that grants contionous

 

BUT has a +1 addvantage required for use with a list of advantages

[Tornado]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Continuous is just silly. It makes the power a Constant power, but costs the same amount as making the power Persistent.

[MitchellS]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Most people I know house rule damage shield. Our HR is that it's a +3/4 advantage and grants limited continuous as part of the advantage.

 

We've house ruled most of the advantages down in cost and some of them have been converted to adders [invisibility is a 5 or 10 point adder to a power].

[Fedifensor]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Agreed. Most of the cost problems are on Advantages, not individual powers, except of course for Shapeshift.

 

*Ducks incoming flame war*

Don't get me started!

 

Shapeshift is a bit better in 5ER than 5E (I think - don't have my old 5E book to compare). However, I still dislike the method of buying versus sense groups. It's basically Images without the INT roll to see through it, which just seems wrong.

[Dust Raven]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Continuous is just silly. It makes the power a Constant power' date=' but costs the same amount as making the power Persistent.[/quote']

 

Slight correction: Making an Instant Power Constant costs the same as making a Constant Power Persistant. Making an Instant Power Persistant costs a lot, because you need Continuous, 0 END and Persistant to do it.

 

I think the confusion comes from the writers who forget this rule. Especially when Steve did the official write up for Regeneration.

[Dust Raven]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

But what do I think if overpriced? Mmm... STR. Definatly STR. And DEX. STR and DEX. Possibly CON. Yes, CON is most certainly overpriced. EB, HA, and Drain might cost too much as well. Oh hell, all the attack powers. Especially the attack powers. And the Special Powers. Oh screw it all, just halve the cost of everything and I'll be happy.

 

But only for my characters. You all still have to pay full price.

 

[Fedifensor]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

CON is most certainly overpriced.

Actually, I think CON with No Figured Characteristics is overpriced...

[Dust Raven]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Actually' date=' I think CON with No Figured Characteristics is overpriced...[/quote']

 

Ya see there.... PROOF!

 

[Duke Bushido]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Most people I know house rule damage shield. Our HR is that it's a +3/4 advantage and grants limited continuous as part of the advantage.

 

We've house ruled most of the advantages down in cost and some of them have been converted to adders [invisibility is a 5 or 10 point adder to a power].

 

HA!

 

We do the same thing here-- same price and everything.

 

Wait----

 

I seem to remember having a gorilla-shaped player some years back....

 

[prestidigitator]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

But what do I think if overpriced? Mmm... STR. Definatly STR. And DEX. STR and DEX. Possibly CON. Yes, CON is most certainly overpriced. EB, HA, and Drain might cost too much as well. Oh hell, all the attack powers. Especially the attack powers. And the Special Powers. Oh screw it all, just halve the cost of everything and I'll be happy.

 

But only for my characters. You all still have to pay full price.

 

Had enough sleep there buddy? Need a little lithium or something?

[MitchellS]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

HA!

 

We do the same thing here-- same price and everything.

 

Wait----

 

I seem to remember having a gorilla-shaped player some years back....

 

Since I mentioned it first you owe me $1.00 in royalties.

[prestidigitator]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Agreed. Most of the cost problems are on Advantages' date=' not individual powers....[/quote']

Multiplicative Advantages I tell you, multiplicative Advantages...Limitations too for that matter...I keep sayin it...that's the ticket, all right...multiplicative Modifiers....

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

For my addition to the list of things I suspect are too expensive....

 

#1 Aid. It was too cheap for its effectiveness in 4e, but I think (as I mentioned in another thread) that it got "overfixed" and as a result is now too expensive for the utility it provides. I haven't bent my houseruling brain to this yet, as I have no real imperative to, not running any games at present... But when I do I'm gonna give this a hard look and either drop the cost back to 5 a die and restrict the utility, or keep it at 10 but figure out how to make it a better value for the points.

 

#2 Life Support. I get the idea of breaking life support down into its components, but its gotten ridiculously expensive to have lots of life support, which hampers some designs. Making an undead or robotic character is kinda rough now, what with having to drop 20-50 points into LS just to get the right "feel" for something thats not even really supposed to be a main portion of the character. I don't know a good workaround for this tho.

[ghost-angel]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Ya see there.... PROOF!

 

yes .... about 180 Proof I'd estimate.

 

 

(I have no proble with the cost of CON)

 

I do think that Full Life Support is a bit costly at 50 points. I think Breathing should have been broken down as 1,3,5 instead of 1,5,10 as well.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Eh, we've done the too-expensive thing already. Let's talk about stuff that's too cheap!

 

 

 

...Like Desolidification...

[Super Squirrel]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I don't feel that Damage Shield costs too much. If it was any cheaper, you would end up having characters running around and into each other like bumper cars.

[ghost-angel]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I don't feel that Damage Shield costs too much. If it was any cheaper' date=' you would end up having characters running around and into each other like bumper cars.[/quote']

I just pictured superman and batman doing a post-smackdown chest bump, next panel has them on the ground unconcious from their respective Damage Shields..

[MitchellS]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I don't feel that Damage Shield costs too much. If it was any cheaper' date=' you would end up having characters running around and into each other like bumper cars.[/quote']

It was cheaper for 20 years and no one was playing bumper cars with it during all that time.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

It was cheaper for 20 years and no one was playing bumper cars with it during all that time.

Yeah, but 20 years ago there weren't people playing Paladins in Diablo doing the same basic technique. I see people turn on Aura of Thorns at level 20 with a Necromancer with an army of skeltons. It is a scary, scary sight to see!

[pinecone]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Well...D/S is too expensive, and LS too...my person gripe is it's too dang expensive to make a weather controller...way too expensive...I even posted a rant about it once...

[Ura-Maru]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

A second for the ‘exotic life support’ 10 points to be immune to diseases, 10 points to be immune to drugs, and you still probably need power defense to stop drains built as drugs or diseases. Eh.

 

And the ‘holding breath’ thing is just weird. In the extremely unlikely event that you are in danger of running out of breath, given Hero’s incredibly generous ‘breath holding’ rules, moving the amount of time between the ‘use one end, even if you don’t do anything’ intervals is probably not going to help.

 

A second on Aid. Binary Man spent 24 points on a fighting array that was worth maybe 8 points, and that’s being stingy with the limitations.

 

To be fair, using Aid to boost dex past the NCM’s been a standard since at least 4E. The problems as much NCM being a bad idea as with Aid itself.

 

Anyway, it wasn’t so much that Aid was ‘over fixed,’ but they fixed the wrong part of it. You can still Aid 15 powers at once for a +2 advantage, which was the core of the original problem.

 

The king of the ‘overpriced advantages,’ though, has GOT to be ‘One and a Half Times Knockback.’ You can have an 8d6 EB, that does the same knockback as a 12d6 EB, for the mere cost of a . . . 12d6 EB.

 

Actually, Double Knockback is a close second, but at least that lets you do a tiny bit more knockback than you otherwise would. Not that a 6 1/2d6 double KB EB is anywhere near the same use as a 12d6 EB, but at least you come out ahead. (A whole inch! Woooo!).

 

Ego’s overpriced in most games. In settings with no mentalists, its only use is defensive presence, which costs half a point, and Ego Rolls, which probably don’t come up that often. Willpower should be a big deal in any heroic fiction, but the game just doesn’t use it for much.

 

Though even in campaigns WITH mentalists, I’m still waiting for a good justification as why it costs twice what Strength does.

 

---

Has anyone ever had a character even catch a disease in ANY rpg, where it wasn’t a Plot Device? Anyone?

[prestidigitator]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

And the ‘holding breath’ thing is just weird. In the extremely unlikely event that you are in danger of running out of breath' date=' given Hero’s incredibly generous ‘breath holding’ rules, moving the amount of time between the ‘use one end, even if you don’t do anything’ intervals is probably not going to help.[/quote']

They aren't that generous. Out of combat, that End goes away pretty darn quickly. In combat, remember that you aren't getting any Recoveries...which means you are going to be being KOed quite a bit faster....

 

The king of the ‘overpriced advantages,’ though, has GOT to be ‘One and a Half Times Knockback.’ You can have an 8d6 EB, that does the same knockback as a 12d6 EB, for the mere cost of a . . . 12d6 EB.

 

Actually, Double Knockback is a close second, but at least that lets you do a tiny bit more knockback than you otherwise would. Not that a 6 1/2d6 double KB EB is anywhere near the same use as a 12d6 EB, but at least you come out ahead. (A whole inch! Woooo!).

Well, once you add any other Advantages, these become much more attractive. For example, if you were to add +1/2 to a 12d6 EB it would cost a lot more than if you were to add it to an 8d6 EB with x3/2 KB. Of course, I think x3/2 should be cheaper and Advantages should not work this way: an Advantage should affect a Power the same whether that Power has a high number of Base Points or a low number of Base Points and enough other Advantages to bring its Active Cost to the same value. Everyone chant with me now: Multiplicative Modifiers, Multiplicative Modifiers, Multiplicative....

 

Ego’s overpriced in most games. In settings with no mentalists, its only use is defensive presence, which costs half a point, and Ego Rolls, which probably don’t come up that often. Willpower should be a big deal in any heroic fiction, but the game just doesn’t use it for much.

You don't use Psychological Limitations? Ego can be pretty useful there...and if the GM incorporates things like temptation and willpower into his/her game otherwise.

 

Though even in campaigns WITH mentalists, I’m still waiting for a good justification as why it costs twice what Strength does.

Hmm. Well, since it usually takes the place of both Dex and Body in mental combat, my question is: why is it so cheap in a game with mentalists?

 

Has anyone ever had a character even catch a disease in ANY rpg, where it wasn’t a Plot Device? Anyone?

Yep. From monsters and animals. I've also had PCs catch diseases when GMing myself. (Actually, my most notorious case is when a PC in one of my Vampire games caught a disease that made him lose more blood than normal and gain less from feeding. This was from a simple botched hunting roll, although I then turned it into a plot device.)