Skills System - Out of Synch?

[Von Hase]

This has been a nagging point that has been bothering me for years, so I thought I'd see what you all have to say to the subject.

 

It takes 3 points to buy a Skill that affords effectively 50% chance of success for an average character. It costs 5, 7, 9 or even 11 points to raise it to a reliable level. Compare being able to regularly navigate to quadrupling a character’s Strength or the ability to fly, and the cost seems a bit high. However, even a flat character needs at least 10 Skills, while better-developed characters need up to 20 or more. It’s almost as if characters are penalized for bothering to buy those extra skills to make them interesting.

 

Am I the only one that thinks the costs for skills are not in scale with the rest of the Hero System?

[MitchellS]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Actually I believe 11- is a 62% chance of success. I personally think skills should be removed from characteristics [which would make them even more expensive]. When you consider that you can buy 10 INT skills for 3 points and +2 INT Levels for 10 points paying 43 points [including a 13 INT] for ten 14- rolls [which must be about 80% success rate] seems fairly cheap to me.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

I've thought seriously about making all skills cost 2 points for 9+(CHA/5), 1 point for +1.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

You could simply widen your definition of skills a bit. If you feel 20 skills are necessary to round out a character, I'd guess each one is pretty narrowly defined. That's a lot of skills. Actually 10 is quite a lot of skills.

 

I'm not happy with skill costs but i tend to deal with it by being a bit generous with what I'll allow PCs to do with any given skill.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

FYI I usually wind up spending about 30-45 points on Skills for a 75+75 point heroic character. This gives a number of Skills at their base value, one or two with +1 to +4 bonuses, and a few Familiarities. It usually also includes some CSLs, WFs, and maybe a Combat Skill or two such as Defense Maneuver, Two-Weapon Figthing, etc. I find it to be quite adequate; the characters are competent in their fields, although they may not be experts at everything. For superheros I'd probably wind up spending a little less, but not much less.

[archermoo]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Actually I believe 11- is a 62% chance of success. I personally think skills should be removed from characteristics [which would make them even more expensive]. When you consider that you can buy 10 INT skills for 3 points and +2 INT Levels for 10 points paying 43 points [including a 13 INT] for ten 14- rolls [which must be about 80% success rate] seems fairly cheap to me.

 

Just as an FYI, 11- is indeed ~62%, and 14- is ~91%.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

You could simply widen your definition of skills a bit. If you feel 20 skills are necessary to round out a character' date=' I'd guess each one is pretty narrowly defined. That's a lot of skills. Actually 10 is quite a lot of skills.[/quote']

 

For a Supers game, perhaps. However most Heroic type games I've played in tend to be quite a bit more skill-intensive and thus 10 skills is the absolute minimum I'd ever give a character in a Heroic level campaign. 20 skills (including various Knowledge skills, AK's and Science Skills) is closer to where I place my heroic level characters.

The last character I wrote up for a 75+75 campaign came out 30pts over because of the skills I wanted to give him to properly flesh out his background (a former assasin who became a shaolin-type monk) I ended up having to both reduce characteristics (which were all at reasonable levels) and drop certain skills to get the character to even fit in the 150pt zone.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

This has been a nagging point that has been bothering me for years, so I thought I'd see what you all have to say to the subject.

 

It takes 3 points to buy a Skill that affords effectively 50% chance of success for an average character. It costs 5, 7, 9 or even 11 points to raise it to a reliable level. Compare being able to regularly navigate to quadrupling a character’s Strength or the ability to fly, and the cost seems a bit high. However, even a flat character needs at least 10 Skills, while better-developed characters need up to 20 or more. It’s almost as if characters are penalized for bothering to buy those extra skills to make them interesting.

 

Am I the only one that thinks the costs for skills are not in scale with the rest of the Hero System?

11- is 62.5% on a bell curve. That aside, Skills can be overpriced, however it really depends on individual character builds and also on how individual GM's run their games.

 

In the first case, characters designed to make the most of their Skills can be very aggressively costed, but characters that have a lot of skills (Skillmongers as I like to call them) and characters that take a scattering of Skills for flavor, and finally "pro from dover" characters that want to be absolutely unquestioned masters of a subject and take every conceivable combination of related Skills generally pay too much for their abilities.

 

In the second case, GM's that run their games in such a way that Skills are necessary ensure that characters with Skills get a good ROI on the points they spent on them. GM's that run their games in such a way that Skills are not necessary have quite the opposite effect.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

This has been a nagging point that has been bothering me for years, so I thought I'd see what you all have to say to the subject.

 

It takes 3 points to buy a Skill that affords effectively 50% chance of success for an average character. It costs 5, 7, 9 or even 11 points to raise it to a reliable level. Compare being able to regularly navigate to quadrupling a character’s Strength or the ability to fly, and the cost seems a bit high. However, even a flat character needs at least 10 Skills, while better-developed characters need up to 20 or more. It’s almost as if characters are penalized for bothering to buy those extra skills to make them interesting.

 

Am I the only one that thinks the costs for skills are not in scale with the rest of the Hero System?

 

You are so wrong. Or maybe just under the wrong impression.

 

"Compare being able to regularly navigate to quadrupling a character’s Strength or the ability to fly"

 

Okay, Navigation [Air] costs 2 points for an airline pilot for an INT/5+9 Roll. Assuming a highly intelligent pilot (INT 10), that will be an 11- Roll. This is the base of all his Navigation Skill rolls. NOT THE END. The base. For the routine task of plotting a course from one part of the world to another, he's likely to get a +3 to +5 on his roll (see the rules on Skills), and thus have about an 85% or better to succeed on the first try.

 

Buying the skill roll up directly, say by +3, will give the character an 85% chance of doing something he normally doesn't do or is extremely difficult or is under extremely unusual circumstances. Those skill levels represent a near superhuman, or at least skilled-beyond-belief, level of competance.

[Fitz]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

And don't forget that the base 11- chance of success (assuming your character is dead average) is for performing a skill in the shortest feasible time -- usually a half-Phase -- with the least feasible equipment -- often none at all. Taking a bit of Extra Time over the performance of even a very basic a skill makes it much, much more likely to succeed, and getting access to some good quality tools or what-not should improve things even more.

 

As for the extra skills desirable to make a character well-rounded, what's wrong with buying 1-pt Familiarities? Unless you have the sort of GM who enforces skill rolls for things as trivial as navigating your way down to the corner shop, they're ideal for representing a wide range of general knowledge.

 

Then again, there are the various Skill Enhancers, like Scholar or Jack-of-all-trades. If you expect to buy at least three skills in the appropriate area they effectively cost nothing, and they get more cost-effective the more skills you buy.

[Von Hase]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

You are so wrong. Or maybe just under the wrong impression.

 

"Compare being able to regularly navigate to quadrupling a character’s Strength or the ability to fly"

 

Okay, Navigation [Air] costs 2 points for an airline pilot for an INT/5+9 Roll. Assuming a highly intelligent pilot (INT 10), that will be an 11- Roll. This is the base of all his Navigation Skill rolls. NOT THE END. The base. For the routine task of plotting a course from one part of the world to another, he's likely to get a +3 to +5 on his roll (see the rules on Skills), and thus have about an 85% or better to succeed on the first try.

 

Buying the skill roll up directly, say by +3, will give the character an 85% chance of doing something he normally doesn't do or is extremely difficult or is under extremely unusual circumstances. Those skill levels represent a near superhuman, or at least skilled-beyond-belief, level of competance.

 

According to the rules presented on p.42 5ER, if a task is routine, there doesn’t need to be a roll, which means there shouldn’t be a +3 to +5 modifier.

 

While this means that characters with a 2- roll will still be able to perform ‘routine’ tasks regardless of their feeble skill, it also means that when an average character with a 10- or 11- does need to make a roll, success is much less likely.

 

And don't forget that the base 11- chance of success (assuming your character is dead average) is for performing a skill in the shortest feasible time -- usually a half-Phase -- with the least feasible equipment -- often none at all. Taking a bit of Extra Time over the performance of even a very basic a skill makes it much, much more likely to succeed, and getting access to some good quality tools or what-not should improve things even more.

 

As for the extra skills desirable to make a character well-rounded, what's wrong with buying 1-pt Familiarities? Unless you have the sort of GM who enforces skill rolls for things as trivial as navigating your way down to the corner shop, they're ideal for representing a wide range of general knowledge.

 

According to p.42 5ER, the time to perform a skill is based on the task and circumstances. Effectively, the duration and difficulty of a standard skill attempt are ‘average’, but they need to be made when the outcome is crucial such as only having one chance to attempt the task. However if we take the above example, a character with access to standard equipment and an acceptable amount of time, but put them in the position that they only get one attempt to make their navigation roll, they will miss their destination 37% of the time. Oddly, private pilots only get one chance to set their course before they take off, yet almost never miss their destinations in the real world.

 

Finally, compare the ability to reliably fly a plane to just being able to fly. Transport Familiarity – Pilot to know how to operate the plane. PS: Pilot for unusual applications should they arise. Combat Piloting to fly under hazardous conditions should the need arise. Navigation to get to your destination. A Familiarity with Systems Operations for the plane, There’s at least 12 points if not more – assuming the character doesn’t want to crash 37% of the time he ends up in a fateful situation. For that same amount, a character could buy minimum flight with NCBT Megascale, and fly as fast as the plane without ever having to make a roll. Add some limitations like 'Real Item' and 'OIF-Bulky:Plane' to the Flight and you're down to a fraction of the cost. If you want almost the exact same effect, add 'Independent' to the plane and 'Requires Skill Roll-Piloting', and you still end up paying an even smaller amount despite the need for one Skill.

 

What the current Skills System ends up with is a situation where Skills are overly specific but mostly irrelevant yet still eat up a lot of points for very little effect, which does not at all match the versatility of the rest of the Hero System’s design logic or points balance and that’s my point.

[Agent X]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

According to the rules presented on p.42 5ER, if a task is routine, there doesn’t need to be a roll, which means there shouldn’t be a +3 to +5 modifier.

 

While this means that characters with a 2- roll will still be able to perform ‘routine’ tasks regardless of their feeble skill, it also means that when an average character with a 10- or 11- does need to make a roll, success is much less likely.

 

 

 

According to p.42 5ER, the time to perform a skill is based on the task and circumstances. Effectively, the duration and difficulty of a standard skill attempt are ‘average’, but they need to be made when the outcome is crucial such as only having one chance to attempt the task. However if we take the above example, a character with access to standard equipment and an acceptable amount of time, but put them in the position that they only get one attempt to make their navigation roll, they will miss their destination 37% of the time. Oddly, private pilots only get one chance to set their course before they take off, yet almost never miss their destinations in the real world.

 

Finally, compare the ability to reliably fly a plane to just being able to fly. Transport Familiarity – Pilot to know how to operate the plane. PS: Pilot for unusual applications should they arise. Combat Piloting to fly under hazardous conditions should the need arise. Navigation to get to your destination. A Familiarity with Systems Operations for the plane, There’s at least 12 points if not more – assuming the character doesn’t want to crash 37% of the time he ends up in a fateful situation. For that same amount, a character could buy minimum flight with NCBT Megascale, and fly as fast as the plane without ever having to make a roll. Add some limitations like 'Real Item' and 'OIF-Bulky:Plane' to the Flight and you're down to a fraction of the cost. If you want almost the exact same effect, add 'Independent' to the plane and 'Requires Skill Roll-Piloting', and you still end up paying an even smaller amount despite the need for one Skill.

 

What the current Skills System ends up with is a situation where Skills are overly specific but mostly irrelevant yet still eat up a lot of points for very little effect, which does not at all match the versatility of the rest of the Hero System’s design logic or points balance and that’s my point.

If you've bought the skill, you can't have a 2- roll unless you have a characteristic of what, -35?

 

As far as the pilot, he doesn't need to buy PS: Pilot unless his job is piloting. If he has combat piloting then he gets a free TF in one thing. If he needs to do the navigating he needs to buy navigation: air. If he's got combat piloting and navigation, then he can use the systems on a plane. He just doesn't have system operations for anything else.

 

So, you're talking about a character spending 6 points, not 12, to be able to plot a course, fly the plane, and make evasive maneuvers if need be.

[Von Hase]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

If you've bought the skill, you can't have a 2- roll unless you have a characteristic of what, -35?

 

As far as the pilot, he doesn't need to buy PS: Pilot unless his job is piloting. If he has combat piloting then he gets a free TF in one thing. If he needs to do the navigating he needs to buy navigation: air. If he's got combat piloting and navigation, then he can use the systems on a plane. He just doesn't have system operations for anything else.

 

So, you're talking about a character spending 6 points, not 12, to be able to plot a course, fly the plane, and make evasive maneuvers if need be.

 

I was making an exaggerated point with the 2- that was the Skill Level doesn't matter in that situation, whether it is pathetic or unbelievable. If someone did have an INT of –35, they could still perform the same routine tasks with a Skill as someone with an INT of 10 or 350 without fail according to the system laid out so long as they paid the 3 base points.

 

I've played enough dogfight style video games to qualify for minimal Combat Piloting, but I don't know squat about the important things that go along with flying a plane consistently safely. My father is a pilot, and has told me about enough of these things that I am very clear on the fact that even though I can ‘fly’ a plane when he takes me up and even do tricks like a roll over and loop, I would certainly wreck the thing in hazardous conditions. For example, if I had to fly instruments only, something any pilot knows how to do, I'd make a Cessna pancake.

 

Whether or not you would assume that Combat Piloting includes all of that knowledge is the question, but according to a strict interpretation of the rules it does not. While the TF would allow the pilot to use the radio, if the radio experienced a minor malfunction, would the TF allow him to correct it? If so, what are his chances of doing so under pressure? A free INT roll? Combat Piloting?

 

…All of that to reiterate the fact that if a character is to be competent at what they intend to, they will have to spend an inordinate amount of points on Skills with the current system unless you’re effectively metagaming by allowing skills to apply to situations where they do not. If a GM is going to do that, they effectively invalidate the point to having a system for Skills, and would be better served by having characters skills be based on a description and arbitrarily toss a number out for them to roll in any case of important uncertainty. It would save a lot of points, that’s for sure.

 

However, that’s not what the Hero System is about, and not why we love it. It is a balanced architecture upon which we can create stories that both intrigue and challenge us – literally. When a game is balanced, the deciding factor is the innovation and skillfulness of the players. While we all like to have ‘reality’ closely approximated, we also accept that balance is more important to have fun in a game. The rest of the game mechanics are artfully crafted to do this, and are balanced to one another. The Skills system is not.

 

For instance, why would someone go to the trouble of buying separate ‘2 points for a +1’ increases to their Skills if they have more than four? The 8 point Skill Level applies to all non-combat Skills, which are pretty much all of them except for CSLs and RSLs. There are three obvious reasons. First it is counter intuitive. Just because someone becomes better at Juggling doesn’t make them understand Biology any better. The second is because it’s counter intuitive, it goes against descriptive sensibilities and makes characters less of what we want them to be and more a pile of figures. And finally, when you put those two together, you end up with something that smells a lot like metagaming.

 

So not only is the Skills system unbalanced from the rest of the game, it doesn’t function like it should either. Worst of all, it doesn’t follow the design logic of the rest of the Hero System, which is why we love the game in the first place.

 

As an example of what I mean about the Skills system not matching up with the design logic of the rest of the Hero System, the special effects and specifics of an ‘Energy Blast’ are defined by the player, but special effects and specifics of a ‘Skill’ are not. One could place an array of related powers into a framework, but to do so with related skills would be truly bad form. Could you imagine a ‘Skills’ Multipower consisting of several dozen one point ultra slots of 10 point skills? No. It’s ludicrous, but that’s exactly what we would do to simulate a weapons array, only using Powers instead of Skills.

 

I think that’s the first place to start balancing the Skills system. Approach them as Powers instead of overly specific Talents. The Combat Levels certainly do. They’re open ended and versatile. Players are free to describe them as they wish and then pay an amount appropriate to the effectiveness of those levels. Instead of a list of specific Skills, allow players to develop their own ‘Skills’ which act as modifiers in the situations that they apply. Instead of having to buy a series of 3 point base Skills, simply use the Characteristic roll as a default, and buy Skill Levels for things that a character is more competent at.

 

Some examples could easily include

 

Social Skills

Physical Skills

Mental Skills

Academics

Biological

Covert

Domestics

etc.

 

Doing things this way would make it easier to incorporate Skills into Powers when designing items or such, as well as allow players to assign Advantages and Limitations to them. This would also have the side effect of allowing player the same freedom that the Powers system offers, in that they would be free to define their skills as they wish.

[Mentor]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

You could simply widen your definition of skills a bit. If you feel 20 skills are necessary to round out a character, I'd guess each one is pretty narrowly defined. That's a lot of skills. Actually 10 is quite a lot of skills.

 

I'm not happy with skill costs but i tend to deal with it by being a bit generous with what I'll allow PCs to do with any given skill.

I am with Sean on the point of broad definitions for skills and what they can do.

 

I also assume that a PC with a requisite skill only needs to roll when they are doing something relatively challenging, and doing everday stuff is automatic with a purchased skill.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

According to the rules presented on p.42 5ER, if a task is routine, there doesn’t need to be a roll, which means there shouldn’t be a +3 to +5 modifier.

 

While this means that characters with a 2- roll will still be able to perform ‘routine’ tasks regardless of their feeble skill, it also means that when an average character with a 10- or 11- does need to make a roll, success is much less likely.

I'm still using 5E, rather than 5ER, but I'm pretty sure there's still that table of Skill Modifiers. Right at the top is a +3 to +5 for routine tasks. I assume this applies for a routine task performed under stress, as apposed to routine performed under ideal lab conditions. And yes, for the most part, it's simply a lot easier to say the character has made his roll and move on. It's not so much a rule that routine tasks automatically succeed, it's simply good thinking on the GM's part.

[Agent X]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

I was making an exaggerated point with the 2- that was the Skill Level doesn't matter in that situation, whether it is pathetic or unbelievable. If someone did have an INT of –35, they could still perform the same routine tasks with a Skill as someone with an INT of 10 or 350 without fail according to the system laid out so long as they paid the 3 base points.

 

I've played enough dogfight style video games to qualify for minimal Combat Piloting, but I don't know squat about the important things that go along with flying a plane consistently safely. My father is a pilot, and has told me about enough of these things that I am very clear on the fact that even though I can ‘fly’ a plane when he takes me up and even do tricks like a roll over and loop, I would certainly wreck the thing in hazardous conditions. For example, if I had to fly instruments only, something any pilot knows how to do, I'd make a Cessna pancake.

 

Whether or not you would assume that Combat Piloting includes all of that knowledge is the question, but according to a strict interpretation of the rules it does not. While the TF would allow the pilot to use the radio, if the radio experienced a minor malfunction, would the TF allow him to correct it? If so, what are his chances of doing so under pressure? A free INT roll? Combat Piloting?

 

…All of that to reiterate the fact that if a character is to be competent at what they intend to, they will have to spend an inordinate amount of points on Skills with the current system unless you’re effectively metagaming by allowing skills to apply to situations where they do not. If a GM is going to do that, they effectively invalidate the point to having a system for Skills, and would be better served by having characters skills be based on a description and arbitrarily toss a number out for them to roll in any case of important uncertainty. It would save a lot of points, that’s for sure.

 

However, that’s not what the Hero System is about, and not why we love it. It is a balanced architecture upon which we can create stories that both intrigue and challenge us – literally. When a game is balanced, the deciding factor is the innovation and skillfulness of the players. While we all like to have ‘reality’ closely approximated, we also accept that balance is more important to have fun in a game. The rest of the game mechanics are artfully crafted to do this, and are balanced to one another. The Skills system is not.

 

For instance, why would someone go to the trouble of buying separate ‘2 points for a +1’ increases to their Skills if they have more than four? The 8 point Skill Level applies to all non-combat Skills, which are pretty much all of them except for CSLs and RSLs. There are three obvious reasons. First it is counter intuitive. Just because someone becomes better at Juggling doesn’t make them understand Biology any better. The second is because it’s counter intuitive, it goes against descriptive sensibilities and makes characters less of what we want them to be and more a pile of figures. And finally, when you put those two together, you end up with something that smells a lot like metagaming.

 

So not only is the Skills system unbalanced from the rest of the game, it doesn’t function like it should either. Worst of all, it doesn’t follow the design logic of the rest of the Hero System, which is why we love the game in the first place.

 

As an example of what I mean about the Skills system not matching up with the design logic of the rest of the Hero System, the special effects and specifics of an ‘Energy Blast’ are defined by the player, but special effects and specifics of a ‘Skill’ are not. One could place an array of related powers into a framework, but to do so with related skills would be truly bad form. Could you imagine a ‘Skills’ Multipower consisting of several dozen one point ultra slots of 10 point skills? No. It’s ludicrous, but that’s exactly what we would do to simulate a weapons array, only using Powers instead of Skills.

 

I think that’s the first place to start balancing the Skills system. Approach them as Powers instead of overly specific Talents. The Combat Levels certainly do. They’re open ended and versatile. Players are free to describe them as they wish and then pay an amount appropriate to the effectiveness of those levels. Instead of a list of specific Skills, allow players to develop their own ‘Skills’ which act as modifiers in the situations that they apply. Instead of having to buy a series of 3 point base Skills, simply use the Characteristic roll as a default, and buy Skill Levels for things that a character is more competent at.

 

Some examples could easily include

 

Social Skills

Physical Skills

Mental Skills

Academics

Biological

Covert

Domestics

etc.

 

Doing things this way would make it easier to incorporate Skills into Powers when designing items or such, as well as allow players to assign Advantages and Limitations to them. This would also have the side effect of allowing player the same freedom that the Powers system offers, in that they would be free to define their skills as they wish.

You're reading a different rulebook than I am concerning how skills work. As far as skill levels are concerned, they work just fine. You seem to focus too narrowly on one issue, ignoring how the system solves elsewhere the problem you are "creating".

[Dust Raven]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

…All of that to reiterate the fact that if a character is to be competent at what they intend to' date=' they will have to spend an inordinate amount of points on Skills with the current system unless you’re effectively metagaming by allowing skills to apply to situations where they do not. If a GM is going to do that, they effectively invalidate the point to having a system for Skills, and would be better served by having characters skills be based on a description and arbitrarily toss a number out for them to roll in any case of important uncertainty. It would save a lot of points, that’s for sure.[/quote']

I think you're still missing the point. Obviously competence isn't going to be "to never fail a skill roll", as you seem to be implying. The best of the best fail, often regularly. It's been proven that you don't need to spend that much on a skill to be competent at it, yet you persist in stating that its necessary for enjoyable play.

 

So not only is the Skills system unbalanced from the rest of the game, it doesn’t function like it should either. Worst of all, it doesn’t follow the design logic of the rest of the Hero System, which is why we love the game in the first place.

Just to clarify, you mean to say the skills system doesn't function like you want it too, while it currently function exactly how it should.

 

As an example of what I mean about the Skills system not matching up with the design logic of the rest of the Hero System, the special effects and specifics of an ‘Energy Blast’ are defined by the player, but special effects and specifics of a ‘Skill’ are not. One could place an array of related powers into a framework, but to do so with related skills would be truly bad form. Could you imagine a ‘Skills’ Multipower consisting of several dozen one point ultra slots of 10 point skills? No. It’s ludicrous, but that’s exactly what we would do to simulate a weapons array, only using Powers instead of Skills.

Okay, so why not just eliminate Skills altogether and simply use Powers to simulate every conceivable thing a character can possibly do? Seems to be where you're headed. Clinging with Limitation becomes Climbing. Highly Limited Desolidification with some DCV levels replaces Acrobatics. Damage Reduction can replace Breakfall. Clairsentience can replace Deduction and Navigation.

 

The only problem is, that's an awful lot of work. The Skills work just fine as they are. If you don't think you're getting enough bang for the buck, try making the skills more useful, or my applicable in your games.

[archermoo]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

You're reading a different rulebook than I am concerning how skills work. As far as skill levels are concerned' date=' they work just fine. You seem to focus too narrowly on one issue, ignoring how the system solves elsewhere the problem you are "creating".[/quote']

 

Agreed. And if Agent X and I agree on something, it MUST be true...

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

I've said it before the skill system in Hero is not all it could be, and it is not just a cost issue.

 

Tell you what I'd like to see: a bit more detail about using skills in the core system. I mean TUS (The Ultimate Skill) isn't out until next year.

 

There'e no indication of what a routine success is: someone with a higher skill level should be able to do more complex things routinely than someone with a lower skill level.

 

There's no mechanics for extended rolls and, as an adjunct to that there are no mechanics for levels of success: if I have 14- and roll 7, how is that any better than rolling 12?

 

Oooh, here's an idea (basically cribbed from Unknown Armies), LOW roll = bad.

 

Let me explain.

 

This will require more detail in every skill description, but it will be worth it.

 

Take navigation:

 

Less than 8: find north

8: find where you are on a map

9: plot a course to another point on a map

10: calculate journey times and fuel requirements for a journey

11: plot a route (a journey passing through several points)

12: calculate journey times and fuel requirements for a journey

13: correct for environmental conditions on one leg of a route

14: correct for environmental conditions on a whole journey

15: plot a journey that keeps you hidden from cetain viewpoints

16: plot a route that reduces journey time and fuel requirements by 10%

 

etc...

 

You still have the skill system as it stands, you still want to roll under the skill BUT you want to roll as near to the skill as you can. The roll determines what you can accomplish. So, for instance, if you have a navigation skill of 14- you can calculate the journey time and fuel requirements for an entire journey IF your roll comes up at 14. If it is 15 you have failed, if it is 12, you can only calculate time and fuel for the first leg of the journey. You can have another go, keep doing it in fact until you fulfil your potential...

 

Of course you can spend longer, get some really good charts and whatever to increase your roll: point is that not all successful rolls would be equal, and there is a real difference between that 8- familiarity with navigation and the 15- expert.

 

I know this is a bit off topic, but I just thought of it and wanted to share.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

One thing I have always thought was absolutely stunning about Hero system skills was the language overlap table.

 

I don't know if this was original to Hero or cribbed from elsewhere, but Hero is the first place I saw it, although I have seen the idea elsewhere since.

 

It would be nice to see this principle used in, for example, science skills. I mean if you have Biology 17-, you are going to know an awful lot of organic chemistry, even if that does not appear on your character sheet. An overlap table for science skills (and maybe other skills too) could address this: allowing you to make rolls at a penalty or buy associated skills at a discount.

 

This would mean that you could have a realistic character without, necessarily, having to buyy every skill that it would be logical that they would know.

 

Anyone writing TUS, please.....

[archermoo]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

There'e no indication of what a routine success is: someone with a higher skill level should be able to do more complex things routinely than someone with a lower skill level.

 

There's no mechanics for extended rolls and, as an adjunct to that there are no mechanics for levels of success: if I have 14- and roll 7, how is that any better than rolling 12?

 

While I'm sure that TUS will be addressing both of these issues, I've always delt with them on a case by case basis as a Ref. Someone tells me that they want to do something, I decide if they need to roll, and if they do what kind of modifiers they get on the roll. And if they succeed, I decide what they get out of the success. Part of the art of Ref'ing. Assuming that TUS does indeed address the issue, I'll certainly look at the suggestions, but I'll still make the final decision.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

While I'm sure that TUS will be addressing both of these issues' date=' I've always delt with them on a case by case basis as a Ref. Someone tells me that they want to do something, I decide if they need to roll, and if they do what kind of modifiers they get on the roll. And if they succeed, I decide what they get out of the success. Part of the art of Ref'ing. Assuming that TUS does indeed address the issue, I'll certainly look at the suggestions, but I'll still make the final decision.[/quote']

 

 

One of this things that winds me up about this - and many other skill systems, is that it doesn't mirror reality. Someone who has an 8- chance shouldn't be able to succeed at a complex and difficult task in their skill just becasue they rolled a 4. their knowledge IS limited. It is (IMO) daft to explain away these freak rolls with 'well, maybe he saw something in a journal last week and it is fresh in his mind'. Rubbish. That undervalues skills enormously. Someone with a low skill roll should simply not be capable of the same degree of accomplishment as someone with a high skill roll. At basic tasks, it shouldn't matter: one might be as competent as another, but at difficult or complex tasks it should make all the difference in the world if you have studied for five years and worked on the job for 10 on the one hand or picked up an extra class at college on the other.

 

I'm not of the opinion that the dice should have as much sway as they are sometimes given. Life in fact or simulation is just not that random.

[Agent X]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

One thing I have always thought was absolutely stunning about Hero system skills was the language overlap table.

 

I don't know if this was original to Hero or cribbed from elsewhere, but Hero is the first place I saw it, although I have seen the idea elsewhere since.

 

It would be nice to see this principle used in, for example, science skills. I mean if you have Biology 17-, you are going to know an awful lot of organic chemistry, even if that does not appear on your character sheet. An overlap table for science skills (and maybe other skills too) could address this: allowing you to make rolls at a penalty or buy associated skills at a discount.

 

This would mean that you could have a realistic character without, necessarily, having to buyy every skill that it would be logical that they would know.

 

Anyone writing TUS, please.....

That would be a modifier for the GM to assign.

[Agent X]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

One of this things that winds me up about this - and many other skill systems, is that it doesn't mirror reality. Someone who has an 8- chance shouldn't be able to succeed at a complex and difficult task in their skill just becasue they rolled a 4. their knowledge IS limited. It is (IMO) daft to explain away these freak rolls with 'well, maybe he saw something in a journal last week and it is fresh in his mind'. Rubbish. That undervalues skills enormously. Someone with a low skill roll should simply not be capable of the same degree of accomplishment as someone with a high skill roll. At basic tasks, it shouldn't matter: one might be as competent as another, but at difficult or complex tasks it should make all the difference in the world if you have studied for five years and worked on the job for 10 on the one hand or picked up an extra class at college on the other.

 

I'm not of the opinion that the dice should have as much sway as they are sometimes given. Life in fact or simulation is just not that random.

The GM should assign reasonable modifiers to the difficulty of the task.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

I think you're still missing the point. Obviously competence isn't going to be "to never fail a skill roll", as you seem to be implying. The best of the best fail, often regularly. It's been proven that you don't need to spend that much on a skill to be competent at it, yet you persist in stating that its necessary for enjoyable play.

.

 

I'd say the best of the best only fail regularly at the difficultest of the difficult. They succeed almost all the time at the routinest of the routine

 

I'd go further though. In the skill system I want to see the mediocerist of the mediocre wouldn't have any chance of succeeding at the difficultest of the difficult even if they did roll a 3.

 

I think a high skill should give you capabilities that a low skill doesn't, not just a higher chance of success at any given level.

 

There are an infinite number of monkies with Physics 11- and only one or two with Physics 17-. Who came up with general relativity? it is not all about chance.

 

Mind you, at the other end of the scale I'd be happy enough to rule that if you had sufficient skill to give you, after all bonuses and penalties, at least a 14- chance of succeeding (equivalent to having helpful equipment/references and extra time under normal conditions), there is no need to roll. So if you could accomplish an easy 'routine' task that would give you a +1 bonus and you have no penalties to apply there is no need to roll if your skill is at least 13-.

 

Anyway, that's what I think. I'm going to go get a chinese meal and cogitate some.