Wanted!

[starblaze]

Just checked out this little mini series by Top Cow. Essentially it is about a super world in which all the superheroes were killed off when every supervillians teamed up and killed off pretty much everyone. As you can imagine it is pretty damn grim and sick, but is an interesting idea to kick around. Has anyone else checked this one out? What are your thoughts?

[Trencher]

Re: Wanted!

 

I read the paperback, and it was the worst read ever!

I waited and waited for something cool to happen but nothing!

The action is also lame there is no fighting as much as posing with guns.

Also you can just shoot all the supers without problem.

The way it works is that you see one picture off the main character flying through the air with shoting his guns, and in the next picture a couple of guys fall over, that is it really, there is no real fights.

[Benzini]

Re: Wanted!

 

I liked the series save for a few things...SPOILER ALERT!!! for instance, I thought the smartest man on the planet couldn't have been fooled by sh*thead, and secondly and MOST important, the breaking of the fourth wall in the last issue seemed to me malicious and uncalled for by writer millar,who, in effect urinates in his own house by calling the fans that support him, well, terrible things.

I found it interesting as well that when that last issue came out it was impossible to create a new account on millarworld so as to make a comment on that sad fact. I have since started my own boycott on aby book written by him. Can't say this will last but I was pretty put off by his 'character's comments. I you read it you'd know what I mean.

[Trencher]

Re: Wanted!

 

SPOILER ALERT!!! and secondly and MOST important, the breaking of the fourth wall in the last issue seemed to me malicious and uncalled for by writer millar,who, in effect urinates in his own house by calling the fans that support him, well, terrible things.

Continiued spoiler alert!

----

I did not really get the last part actually, what is he complaining to the readers about? That we don't go out and strangle people for their money? Why do he care?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Wanted!

 

Eh, I have a conceptual problem with it: having the villains cooperate and get along better than the heroes. Ain't gonna happen.

[CBikle]

Re: Wanted!

 

Wanted: was ok. Not Millar's best, but not completely horrible.

 

Originally this was intended as a Secret Society Of Super-Villains mini for DC, but things fell through.

 

***SPOILER***

 

re: The ending - Basically the super-villains made the world forget about all the super-heroes and fantastic elements (aliens, magic, etc.) and made the world (the REAL world WE live in) crappy, mundane and mediocre.

 

Basically, the protagonist is LITERALLY laughing at us. The world is supposed to be much brighter and full of hope and heroes. The villains screwed us.

[Big Willy]

Re: Wanted!

 

Metaphysician, what do you imagine organised crime is other than "having the villains cooperate"?

 

WANTED is a Generation X rites of passage revenge fantasy played out against the backdrop of a mafia power struggle. That the characters are set up as an Elseworlds version of the Secret Society of Super-Villains is just a bit of local colour to draw in the spandex fans (the author included); but in that context, Trencher, it's worth bearing in mind that the protagonist is supposed to be the Deadshot of his world - the assassin who never misses - so his ability to take out the superannuated gimmick villains of the Silver Age with a single bullet to the head is both internally consistent and a "When I Become a Criminal Mastermind" style comment on the differing sensibilities of pre- and post-Crisis/Watchmen superhero comics.

 

And Benzini, the fourth wall was broken on issue 1, page 1. How can Wesley be narrating this scene? And who is he talking to when he does? I'll concede that the final epilogue in #6 isn't strictly necessary to the story, but don't agree that it ruins it. We learn that after all his experiences (SPOILER ALERT!)

 

 

 

...Wesley has not "become a better human being", but has instead found a place at the top table of the world he hated so much when he was a disgruntled wage-slave. And, like nouveau riches the world over, he conveniently forgets the combination of luck, talent and contacts which helped him rise to his current position, and berates the rest of us for not having the psychopathic ambition to follow his example.

 

I can understand people being accustomed to expect a "happy" ending, where having overturned the coup, Wesley turns vigilante, declares all-out war on the rest of the Fraternity and ushers in a new age of superheroism... But that would just be setting up yet another gritty masked crimefighter franchise, and I'm actually quite glad it went the other way for a change. It just chimes better with the prevailing mood.

 

I'm really not a big Mark Millar fan: I think many of his ideas are a bit weak and predictable, and he often promises more than he delivers. But WANTED is easily the best thing he's ever written (The Ultimates comes close, but occasionally hits a bum note - everything else is way behind) and I don't understand why people seem to hate it.

[vitruvian23]

Re: Wanted!

 

WANTED is a Generation X rites of passage revenge fantasy played out against the backdrop of a mafia power struggle. That the characters are set up as an Elseworlds version of the Secret Society of Super-Villains is just a bit of local colour to draw in the spandex fans (the author included); but in that context, Trencher, it's worth bearing in mind that the protagonist is supposed to be the Deadshot of his world - the assassin who never misses - so his ability to take out the superannuated gimmick villains of the Silver Age with a single bullet to the head is both internally consistent and a "When I Become a Criminal Mastermind" style comment on the differing sensibilities of pre- and post-Crisis/Watchmen superhero comics.

 

Actually, it's not internally consistent at all, given that many of the targets he shoots are either bulletproof or faster than a speeding bullet. Nor did Millar ever bother to establish the Professor giving him special guns or bullets of any kind, which would probably have made sense given his status as enforcer within the organization.

 

In other words, a single panel would have made the action consistent, but Millar chose not to bother.

[Trencher]

Re: Wanted!

 

More spoiler alert!

 

---

Well thanks to all of you for the explanation, I don't really understand why _he_ is so proud or happy over the way the world and why is he angry at the ones who is brainwashed?

Maybe it’s the fact that the villain controlled world is just as any other superhero world that threw me off the point.

Also I understand that he can kill the gimmick guys, but where are the bulletproof guys. The problem is that they are all gimmick guys. Where is this worlds Juggernaut, Zzaak, Hulk or even the Leaders plastic men? Sure he is good at shooting but if he can shoot someone then a swat sniper could do the same.

His power "the power to make anything into a weapon" is stupid, its a power we all have

There is nothing in this room I am sitting in right now that I could not turn into a weapon and kill someone with! Okay maybe yesterday’s newspaper but that’s it!

I thought his powers and adventure was an analogy for the abilities for all men and that the moral of the story was that "we don't live our life at fullest" or something like that. Since the "power" of one of the main villains is the utter lack of scruples I mean.

I never thought of it from the “the world was really meant to be a better place” angle. Why does it matter? First off a superhero world would be dull second the world changes from better to worse and back again according to who wins, the world is not a static place where anything were “meant” to be. Maybe that is why I did not get it.

If you ask me the book would have been better if it had been about that faceless dude instead at least he did something.

[Chuckg]

Re: Wanted!

 

Metaphysician' date=' what do you imagine organised crime [i']is[/i] other than "having the villains cooperate"?

 

Meta did not say that having villains cooperate was unrealistic.

 

He did say that having them cooperate better than the heroes could was unrealistic.

 

I agree. Villains are selfish and look out for #1 first, that's what makes them villains. Given that the glue that holds together any social contract or cooperative endeavor is trust, they should not be able to come up with more effective and cohesive social structures than the people whose primary motivations are selfless.

 

Organized crime is full of backstabbing and snitching and trying to build each other up by tearing the competition down. The lead cause of death for wiseguys used to be /each other/, for God's sake.

[psm]

Re: Wanted!

 

More spoiler alert!

 

Also I understand that he can kill the gimmick guys, but where are the bulletproof guys. The problem is that they are all gimmick guys. Where is this worlds Juggernaut, Zzaak, Hulk or even the Leaders plastic men? Sure he is good at shooting but if he can shoot someone then a swat sniper could do the same.

His power "the power to make anything into a weapon" is stupid, its a power we all have

There is nothing in this room I am sitting in right now that I could not turn into a weapon and kill someone with! Okay maybe yesterday’s newspaper but that’s it!

 

 

Even more spoiler alerts Seriously, stop reading right now.

 

First off, the ability to shoot the wings off of five flies is more than just being simply accurate. His ability to kill is superhuman. How it's superhuman is up to debate but really not the point of the story.

 

As for why there are no versions of Hulk, Zzaxx or any other hulk villians (Leader's plastic men ) is because it doesn't serve the story. I don't even know why you would ask this question. It's not the DC/Marvel universe. He's the ultimate killer and as such needs to kill his opponenst easily.

 

However, I personally didn't find Wanted all that great. To me it was a summer blockbuster movie. Big explosions, extreme situations but nothing too deep. Maybe because the acts committed were treated in such a blase way. Although, I did like two things about the story. One was the reverse of Spiderman's story. A coming of age story where the protagonist becomes a villian instead of a good guy. "With great power must come great irresponsibility.":) Seriously, did any one notice how his powers free him from any responsibility. That was cool. The other thing I liked was breaking the fourth wall towards the end. How the narrator was trying to pawn off that the world we live in is the one they created.

 

The other thing that I hated about the story was the visual references to movie stars. It took me out of the story when I would see Tommy Lee Jones. I don't mind art to have a realistic feel but to actually reference real people is kinda disjointing.

[Trencher]

Re: Wanted!

 

 

As for why there are no versions of Hulk, Zzaxx or any other hulk villians (Leader's plastic men ) is because it doesn't serve the story. I don't even know why you would ask this question.

It is because the whole supervillian thing kinda falls apart when you can just get shot.

 

And the Leaders plastic men are cool dammit!

[psm]

Re: Wanted!

 

It is because the whole supervillian thing kinda falls apart when you can just get shot.

 

Why? I could understand that if it was set in DC or Marvel. But being in its own universe it has its own logic. Honestly, I would have been more surprised the other way. The universe created in a more Iron Age (I hate that term) matter where death is common and no one is invulnerable from a well placed bullet.

 

And the Leaders plastic men are cool dammit!

 

Lol. Yes, they are. Now the bigger question is would cylander head Leader be able to beat cabbage head Leader.

[CBikle]

Re: Wanted!

 

I think most of those villains are bulletproof. The gun-character's special ability is that he can find just the right spot to aim where conventional bullets

can kill a normally invulnerable person. It's also possible that his gun has special ammo like that Marvel vigilante who shot all those b-list villains after saying "justice is served".

[KA.]

Re: Wanted!

 

First, I never read this and it doesn't sound like my sort of thing, but that isn't what I was going to comment on.

 

However, in a world where there are no bulletproof superheroes, how would there be any superheroes at all?

 

I mean, did the regular criminals of this place never try shooting them?

 

As far as the "one special place", over the course of a career most superheroes have probably taken a bullet to every square inch of their body, it seems like someone would have lucked into it by now.

 

Sorry for the interruption, it just sounds a bit silly.

 

KA.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Wanted!

 

There is nothing in this room I am sitting in right now that I could not turn into a weapon and kill someone with! Okay maybe yesterday’s newspaper but that’s it!

You could twist a few sheets of it into a sort of cord, and strangle them...or shove it down their throat and choke them, or set fire to it or...

[psm]

Re: Wanted!

 

However, in a world where there are no bulletproof superheroes, how would there be any superheroes at all?

 

I mean, did the regular criminals of this place never try shooting them?

 

As far as the "one special place", over the course of a career most superheroes have probably taken a bullet to every square inch of their body, it seems like someone would have lucked into it by now.

 

Sorry for the interruption, it just sounds a bit silly.

KA.

 

 

Its no more silly than a guy running around in a bat suit taking on guys with automatic weapons. Or a guy taking on an entire Nazi platoon with tanks carrying a shield. In all seriousness, most of the characters we read about would be dead. The comic genre is filled with silly things (sidekicks??). Its just certain conventions we accept more readily because we grew up with them or they are generally accepted. I don't see why this one in particular is giving so many people problems.

[psm]

Re: Wanted!

 

You could twist a few sheets of it into a sort of cord' date=' and strangle them...or shove it down their throat and choke them, or set fire to it or...[/quote']

 

Or read the latest "Cathy" from the comic strip section.

[KA.]

Re: Wanted!

 

Its no more silly than a guy running around in a bat suit taking on guys with automatic weapons. Or a guy taking on an entire Nazi platoon with tanks carrying a shield. In all seriousness' date=' most of the characters we read about would be dead. The comic genre is filled with silly things (sidekicks??). Its just certain conventions we accept more readily because we grew up with them or they are generally accepted. I don't see why this one in particular is giving so many people problems.[/quote']

 

I have no problem with silliness in comic books, that was kind of my point.

In the Four Color world, people get shot at all the time, but no one ever gets shot, because, for whatever reason, bullets just don't work on Superheroes.

But in a world where bullets do work, and none of the superheroes are bulletproof, it makes no sense that all the superheroes aren't dead already.

I believe the "special bullet" idea was from one of the posters to this thread, not in the comic itself, that is what some people were complaining about.

The problem could have easily been solved just like they did in:

Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

"Remember how we always thought there wasn't a way to kill a Toon? Well

Doom found a way. Turpentine, Acetone, Benzene. He calls it the Dip."

All the writer needed to do was give one line, one panel, to explain why this guys bullets could kill Superheroes.

That is what seems silly.

 

KA.

[psm]

Re: Wanted!

 

But in a world where bullets do work, and none of the superheroes are bulletproof, it makes no sense that all the superheroes aren't dead already.

KA.

 

But it doesn't have to make sense. How many times have we seen some action hero run through a hail of bullets while killing everyone with one shot. The action hero is not bulletproof. He doesn't have to be. He's protected with writer fiat. It's story logic. Obviously, it doesn't jive with you. Hey, thats cool. If your suspension of belief isn't satisfied not much I can do to change your mind.

 

Plus no one ever said the heroes weren't bulletproof. We just said the villians weren't . (sorry, tried to add some levity and failed miserably)

 

Now, stop making me defend a book I thought was only okay.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Wanted!

 

Metaphysician, what do you imagine organised crime is other than "having the villains cooperate"?

 

As noted, the comment is about the villains cooperating better than the heroes. That doesn't happen since they are all selfish SOBs looking out for number one. They kill each other for advancment or to protect what they have. By contrast, law enforcement works very well together as a team since they are pretty moral people with a common goal: to make their jurisdiction better and get the bad guys.

 

The organized crime example, as shown in Wanted, would be that Organized Crime owns the cops, none of them go to jail, and they are practically invisible. These do not happen.

 

The story was interesting but ultimately morally bankrupt. They bad guys won: that's reprehensible to me. Call it cliched but I wanted an ending where the killer realized the path he had taken and to repent, set about freeing the super heroes and restoring the world to a better place. He didn't and that sinks the whole story for me.

 

As noted, he did kill WAY too many bad guys easily. Sure, he's lethal but he must have a find weakness-20 with enough speed to find weakness on 30 bad guys in a round. It was just too much. Some are just that invulnerable. Also, force fields and armored power suits don't normally have weakpoints that can be penetrated with small arms. While it was intersting how he was smart about his hunting tactics, in the end there was too much writer's fiat.

[Trencher]

Re: Wanted!

 

But it doesn't have to make sense.

But it should be plausible.

 

How many times have we seen some action hero run through a hail of bullets while killing everyone with one shot. The action hero is not bulletproof. He doesn't have to be. He's protected with writer fiat.

That is great but we are talking about genres here.

If you use the action hero element in a super villain story then you should make an effort to explain why the superhero genres elements don’t work any more. (The superhero element being that some villains and heroes like the Hulk for example can’t be shot)

This was like watching a bad action flick just that all the thugs who were gunned down were dressed like captain dork. Think of it as Die hard movie but everybody was dressed like Robin from the old Batman Tv series. Oh and there is no real action you just see people pick up a gun but the fights are cut so badly that you only see who win not how they did it.

 

The story was interesting but ultimately morally bankrupt. They bad guys won: that's reprehensible to me.

Sometimes the bad guys have to win that is the only way to make things interesting. If we could walk in into every movie or open every book knowing that the heroes would win then that would be boring.

I agree that the story was morally bankrupt but not because the heroes loses but because it’s so whiny and holier than thou. It is like listing to a kid who discovered that if he rips of the wings of flies when no ones is watching he is going to get away with it and that makes him think he is the smartest in the world. Also the whole “father has always watched over you son†bit was speculative and commercial.

 

Call it cliched but I wanted an ending where the killer realized the path he had taken and to repent, set about freeing the super heroes and restoring the world to a better place. He didn't and that sinks the whole story for me.

Oh man! That would have made the story even worse! atleast now he stayed in character.

There is no way he would ever be able to repent.

 

As noted, he did kill WAY too many bad guys easily. Sure, he's lethal but he must have a find weakness-20 with enough speed to find weakness on 30 bad guys in a round. It was just too much. Some are just that invulnerable.

I just thought it as they did not have any armour at all.

[KA.]

Re: Wanted!

 

But it doesn't have to make sense. How many times have we seen some action hero run through a hail of bullets while killing everyone with one shot. The action hero is not bulletproof. He doesn't have to be. He's protected with writer fiat. It's story logic. Obviously, it doesn't jive with you. Hey, thats cool. If your suspension of belief isn't satisfied not much I can do to change your mind.

 

Plus no one ever said the heroes weren't bulletproof. We just said the villians weren't . (sorry, tried to add some levity and failed miserably)

 

Now, stop making me defend a book I thought was only okay.

 

Sorry to keep picking at this, but I actually find this conversation interesting.

 

I think Trencher may have hit upon the problem, it is sort of a cross-genre thing.

 

In an action movie, I expect the Hero to run through a hail of bullets without a scratch, because that is what happens in action movies. If the hero got gunned down in the first reel and the rest of the film was spent showing the endless suffering of those he failed to save, it would not be in genre.

That is okay.

Everything does not have to be in genre.

But, if you start out in a genre, and then throw away the basic premises of that genre without any explanation of how this happened, then it makes no sense.

For example: If you wanted to make an "action" movie about a rookie cop who goes out on his first patrol, tries some dangerous stunt like leaping from rooftop to rooftop, and dies in the process, no problem.

You could then examine all sorts of issues like myth vs. reality, the irresponsibility of foolish heroics, etc.

But, if you make an action movie about a character like Dirty Harry, who has supposedly been in hundreds of gunfights over the years and is still alive and well, having him get taken out by a stray bullet in the first reel makes no sense.

The pre-existing world is built on the idea that Dirty Harry does not get taken out by a stray bullet, because if he did, he would have died a long time ago.

 

If you set up a world with a bunch of non-bulletproof supers (heroes or villains) who have presumably been shot at by police, criminals, panicky shopkeepers, etc., and not been harmed, and then say that someone just picks up a gun and starts killing them with it, it makes no sense.

 

You could even set up a situation where the first generation of supers were all bulletproof, so everyone just gave up on even trying to shoot them, and that the current generation actually can be killed by bullets, but no one has ever bothered to try.

 

I guess it is the lack of internal consistency that bothers me.

 

On the other hand, I haven't even read it, so I don't really care all that much about the work itself.

 

I just like having an intelligent conversation with someone, that makes me think about what my position is, and why I believe it.

 

Thanks,

 

KA.

[psm]

Re: Wanted!

 

But it should be plausible.

 

Plausiblity is very subjective. I find bullets killing people to be more plausible than less.

 

That is great but we are talking about genres here.

If you use the action hero element in a super villain story then you should make an effort to explain why the superhero genres elements don’t work any more. (The superhero element being that some villains and heroes like the Hulk for example can’t be shot)

This was like watching a bad action flick just that all the thugs who were gunned down were dressed like captain dork. Think of it as Die hard movie but everybody was dressed like Robin from the old Batman Tv series.

 

As for your take on genres I wholeheartedly disagree. Thats where the crux of our argument is coming from. You basically state that if a story goes against the conventions of a genre it needs to be explained properly. If it doesn't then the story fails.

 

I on the other believe the story overrides the genre. Just because a genre has certian conventions doesn't mean it needs to be slavishly followed. The logic of story is unto itself. It may borrow certain ideas but it doesn't need to consider them all. I consider it the writer's version of house rules:) I certianly wouldn't expect a fighter in every kung-fu movie to be able to use his abilities to run on water or fly through the air.

[psm]

Re: Wanted!

 

Sorry, KA, I didn't see your post before I replied. You definitely summed up the problem Trencher and you are having with the story better than I did. I guess it simply boils down to expectations within a story/genre. You both are taken out of a story when it goes against the preconcieved notions of the genre. While, I have no particular problem with it. I guess we are two different types of readers.

 

On the other hand' date=' I haven't even read it, so I don't really care all that much about the work itself.[/quote']

 

The argument to end all arguments.

 

I just like having an intelligent conversation with someone, that makes me think about what my position is, and why I believe it.

 

Thanks,

 

KA.

 

No kidding. This definitely one of the better conversations I've had lately. To think it started on the 'Wanted' thread is mind boggling. Thank you both.