racial package with increased char maxima

[Spyritwind]

Wow. This issue is always fun. I suppose my perspective and opinions may fall in to the minority category, but here they go.

 

I do see NCM as primarily being a genre thing for the purpose of game balance and keeping thing 'in' genre.

 

Obviously humans in real life aren't waking around with a str of 30. A cap of 20 works for me. Fantasy literature (and definately super heroic) do not follow in the steps of reality though. Epic fantasy character may bend, or even break what is actualy possible and I'm sure we are all aware that 'super' hero's, that are only supposed to be well trained human perform feats that are totally impossible in 'real' life.

 

So ... the maximum human limit changes to match the genre. Running a realistic gritty modern day mercenary campaign? Probably stick with 20 as being the max ... period. Running standard fantasy fiction? Pay double after 20 works to keep it from becoming too common among your players. Super hero's? You can just about throw it out the window for many stats. No need to bother with a stat limit since players have sooo many points that the issue really becomes spending them where you should for your concept, but obviously not over what the GM allows.

 

True enough it could be said that one shouldn't spend points beyond what their concept includes ...

 

Varying characteristic caps among races make perfect sense to me, whether or not there is a doubling cost at some point. A halfling being able to be as strong as the orc, northern man mixed breed doesn't make sense.

 

Or course if you are alllowing non conservative character concepts such as: the druid fairy queen kissed me so my half orc barbarian has a com of 30 then ... okay. If that's the style of fantasy campaign you are running then characteristic max's may not mean much to you.

 

The problem of course is how do you adjust the points if you vary the characteristic maxima?

 

Yes, the old 4th rule didn't work because you wasted many points that were never used if you wanted to be certain races and you felt cheated. As it has been said, you could have just made a better human with the same points so why pay points in essence to visualize your character being a dwarf?

 

Making stats powers for altering races makes sense to me, but then the problem may be that races, other than human presumably, will have an unfair advatage with out paying any extra points for it. Now the disadvantage might be in playing a human.

 

My first thought was to go with the old 4th edition rules regarding stats in a racial package deal, but using a -1/2, or -1/4 limitation on it. This means it doesn't cost as much, but at least it does cost you something.

 

Example:

Half Orc strength + 5 to maxima

 

1) 4th Ed = 10 pts

 

2) Stat as power= 10 pts, but has the advantage of actually giving you 3 points of strength to your base and you automatically have an increased max for free.

 

3) 4th ed with -1/2 limitation = 7 pts This would leave the 3 extra points for increasing the base.

 

TOO MESSY right?

 

Okay, how about adding an advantage on the 'stat as a power' idea since you are also getting the benefit of increasing your maximum and not just adding to the base. Perhaps a +1/2 advantage?

 

The above +5 Str would then cost 7 pts.

2 more points than the human with a 15 str, but 3 points cheaper between a human and a half orc each with a 25 strength. A fairly balanced way of handling it IMO. This way you pay more than normal if you don't meat the maximum, but less if you do.

 

Depeding on your character concept and race this could either be a minor disadvantage, or minor advantage.

 

Strength is potentially the most easily abused stat for these purposes though in a fantasy setting since strenght plays such an important part of game mechanics and the strength stat is so cheap. One I recommend making Str cost 2 pts per point.

 

Example:

Dwarf

Dex -1 (-4.5)

Con +3 (+9)

Body +2 (+6)

Pre -2 (-3)

Com -2 (-1.5)

Pd +1 (+1.5)

Total: +7.5

Yes I used decimals and added them together for a grand total which is unconventional.

 

This would not include changes to running, or any racial/cultural package skill, talents, perks or what ever that may accompany the same package.

 

I'm sure this will get flamed since it doesn't mechanically fit the 'way things are done', but it's an idea for those that want to give the idea a try that aren't bothered by that.

 

And on another note. How things are payed for, for any race, creature, animal, or object that is not being played by a player really doesn't matter in terms of NCM. Really! Think about it? Who cares? A minotaur is a minotaur no matter how it's payed for or how many points it is. It doesn't matter until a player wants to play one (and if I allowed it) because the character's abilities and cost's would need to be balanced with the other characters. Until then it really doesn't matter.

 

NEway ... just an idea in between 4th ed and the stat for power idea's.

[James Gillen]

Boy, this is getting complicated.

 

I'm starting to agree with Lucius; the NCM concept is getting to be too much math, and too much inconsistency, to be worth it. Odd, since cleaning up inconsistency and math seems to be Steve's rationale in making the NCM rule uniform.

 

In the FH games I actually ran, I ditched the 4th Ed. rule in favor of Racial Maxima modifying the base (so a Dwarf pays +6 in his Package Deal to get base 13 CON and 23 CON max before doubling). This was actually the rule in the ancient first edition of Fantasy HERO (before 4th Edition), and it solves the 4th Ed. FH problem of paying for a stat you're not actually using (so that an Elf with 21 DEX max pays +3 points whether she buys her DEX up that high or not- so it's not cost effective unless you buy the stat to max).

 

Adjusting Maxima by race may complicate things, but I hardly think it's that arbitrary if one is going to use NCM at all. Otherwise just say that the Pixie buys her STR at 5 (-5 pts.) and the Ogre buys a STR of 30 (+20) at start, and are permitted to do so by character concept. Note that this creates an effective 'Package Deal' in and of itself by defining how many points you need to get a character within a certain racial concept; your Ogre could also be an 18 INT mage with several spells, but with the points you've already spent on brawn, it's less likely.

 

Steve has done a lot of things which (in my opinion and some others') contradict the idea of standardizing and simplifying the rules. Re-engineering Instant Change and Regeneration (as Transform and Healing variants) is one example. Changing Size Powers (so you can't buy Growth Always On, Inherent) would seem to be another, but it actually is more logical the new way; just buy the traits appropriate for your permanent size, then offset them with Physical Limitations (and Distinctive Features) that fit. EXCEPT, in Star HERO for example, they list several packages for making alien races that are smaller or larger than normal, WITHOUT counting the effects of NCM, even though NCM are supposed to apply *universally* in the Heroic genre.

 

However, a standard has to be enforced to get game product out, and Steve has already made clear what his standard is going to be. Deal with it and move on. I have no objecting to making my house rules and having them count only in my game; the whole point of 5th Edition is that it is "the ultimate gamer's toolkit" and could not serve as such if the GM could not take the raw material and refit it according to genre and effects (just as Steve himself had to alter Healing Regeneration to make it more like 4th Ed. Regen and less like 5th Ed. Healing).

 

When the new Fantasy HERO comes out, I'm probably going to either keep my rule on modifying Maxima by Racial Package, or drop NCM altogether for the "buy what you can justify" concept. After all, in a Chinese Martial Arts campaign, a normal human shouldn't get a natural 50 STR, double cost or no.

 

JG

[Markdoc]

>>>Boy, this is getting complicated.

I'm starting to agree with Lucius; the NCM concept is getting to be too much math, and too much inconsistency, to be worth it. Odd, since cleaning up inconsistency and math seems to be Steve's rationale in making the NCM rule uniform.<<<

 

Only if you a) start with the rationale that NCM is always 20 and want characters with NCM to be able to go above 20 in some cases but not others...

 

That's where the inconsistency (and complication) comes from, as well as all this piffle about buying normal characteristics as powers.

 

Forget all this nonsense about "paying extra to raise caps". That was an ugly pimple on the buttocks of 4th Ed., which thankfully is no longer with us.

 

NCM works fine as long as you treat it exactly the way it was intended to be used: as a genre-defining disadvantage.

 

In a superheroic game, nobody (normally anyway) is forced to take NCM. It is a disadvantage in that it limits the character's participation in the normal statistics arms race that occurs as a game develops. I've read all the "it's not really a disadvantage, 'cos you don't have to buy those stat.s" posts and feel that if you take that approach, it falls into the same category as "Susceptibility to sunlight". After all, you don't HAVE to go outside during daylight...

 

Just so: NCM doesn't penalise you if you don't go outside the range - and does if you do. Susceptibility to sunlight doesn't penalise you if you don't go out in the sun, and does if you do...

 

In a heroic game where the GM decides that NCM is in force, the "20 cap" is essentially "NCM, human". If the GM decides that "NCM, ogre" has different caps, then it can be changed - and possibly the points changed also, just as Age has different levels.

 

if NCM offends you, then don't use it. If it offends you and you want to use it anyway, then call it "Physical limitation: human" (which is what it really is) and treat it exactly the same way. Then you can have Physical limitation: Elf, or Physical limitation: Ogre, or....

 

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

The problem with stat package deals is that the ones that don't zero out--those which cost points--wind up costing the player points for potential. Which is not really fair, and it greatly encourages those players to max out the stats that they can in order to make use of the points they paid for the package.

 

The problem with NCM, or hard limits, is that if the points total is high enough characters will all wind up with about the same stats, right at the border. I've seen several campaigns where evey non-wizard wound up with 20 for the first four stats. It's not hard.

 

I think that if I were to start up another FH campaign, I would dispense with NCM, but limit the points that could be spent on stats during character creation--probably to about 50% of the point total--and impose fixed racial maxima for stats, but again, only during character creation. After I boost the cost of STR to two, that ought to work reasonably well.

[Markdoc]

>>>The problem with NCM, or hard limits, is that if the points total is high enough characters will all wind up with about the same stats, right at the border. I've seen several campaigns where evey non-wizard wound up with 20 for the first four stats. It's not hard.<<<<<

 

The borderline issue is a sure sign of a campaign where the players are starting with too many points - and as you note will happen if you use fixed caps just as readily as using NCM (more so actually, 'cos there'll be no way to go over a fixed cap).

 

I'm not sure that dumping NCM and letting players buy 40 STR fighters is a great idea (and the only other option is fixed caps - the least appealing of the 3 options, to my mind)

 

Setting STR at 2 XP per point of STR will help some - but not too much.

 

From experience, requiring 50% to be spent on other things than CHA will result in lots of strong, dextrous, ugly, weak-willed characters, and an even smaller range of Stat.s as the pressure to cluster around cost effective points becomes greater.

 

I'd just start 'em off with less points and let the players make the choices.

 

cheers, Mark

[AnotherSkip]

Actually Playtesting FH has given me a few ideas,

Really there are a few broken points that surprising enough I think have to do with views of what is effective and Weapons Str Min.

 

I cannot discuss it here until after publication but I think Steve managed to open my eyes to the way things should be changed (and not the way he intended/wrote!!!!!)

 

However I still have a major problem with NCM and (for example) negative running. Negative running (-1" typically for Dwarves) I see as a problem. Okies I bought -1"running, now then If I want a "speedier" Dwarf and buy +1" running I either could get a better bennie out of being a human(and building a character on 150 points rather than 148 with thi s method which is all i'm really doing) spending no points and Telling the Gm I am buying it off as a background thing (which now means I can run as fast as any human), or I have a disadvantage that is not worth any points, (hmmm seems I see that in big black bold letters as something you cannot have every time i read the Disadvantages section of 4th or 5th editions......)

 

 

pretty much what it means is that you have two types of Dwarfs: 5" movers and Humans-who-look-like-Dwarfs.

[PhilFleischmann]

An Example

 

Numah, the Human has 30 STR (quite rare for a human)

Ergo, the Ogre has 30 STR (common for an ogre)

Gnilflah, the Halfling has 30 STR (really wierd for a halfling)

 

They can all do the same thing with their STR, in terms of game effect, therefore they should all pay the same amount for their STR.

 

If Ergo had to pay for an ogre package deal that included STR or increased STR limit already, that still counts as the total cost of his STR. The only problem is what happens when a PC is a "runt of the litter" ogre? Does he still have to pay the same for the ogre package when he has only 10 or 15 STR?

 

The opposite problem occurs in the case of Gnilflah.

 

This is, in a nutshell, why I don't use varied char maxima do define races. The only thing you (as the GM) have to decide is: How rare do you want 30 STR to be among your players? If you want it rare, you use NCM as written in FREd, and Numah, Ergo, and Gnilflah all pay 30 points each for their STR. If you want 30 STR to be more common, don't use NCM and the three each pay 20 points. If you want 30 STR to be extremely rare, set the NCM for STR at 15, (or even 10!) or say that costs triple (or even quadruple!) after 20.

 

If you're the GM, you can set the "strata of rarification" however you want.

[Old Man]

Re: An Example

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Numah, the Human has 30 STR (quite rare for a human)

Ergo, the Ogre has 30 STR (common for an ogre)

Gnilflah, the Halfling has 30 STR (really wierd for a halfling)

 

They can all do the same thing with their STR, in terms of game effect, therefore they should all pay the same amount for their STR.

 

Fine then, but what do you do to discourage the Halfling player from buying 30 STR in the first place? I personally am not interested in playing the wild fantasy genre.

[Vondy]

I use a simple rule:

 

everyone has NCM, and everyone pays double to go over NCM.

 

I don't make non-humans pay for the potential to go over because the player may never want to use it, and therefore, may be forced to waste points on it.

[Agent X]

Re: Re: An Example

 

Originally posted by Old Man

Fine then, but what do you do to discourage the Halfling player from buying 30 STR in the first place? I personally am not interested in playing the wild fantasy genre.

Just say no to the guy who wants a 30 strength halfling unless there is a good reason for it.

[Old Man]

That's just not good enough. There has to be something to encourage halflings to be of halfling strength. A hard limit isn't going to work because that will just cause all halflings to be at that maximum.

 

I'm starting to think that the answer is to alter the actual costs for stats for specific races. STR could cost 2 for the ogre, 3 for humans and 4 for halflings. DEX could cost 3 for elves and halflings, 4 for humans and 5 for the ogre. If it all balances out between the races we could do away with the NCM. If the halfling player wants to spend 80 points for 30 STR he's welcome to try.

[Markdoc]

>>Just say no to the guy who wants a 30 strength halfling unless there is a good reason for it.<<<

 

And here we are back in the same place: what is a good reason? Your player might consider "father drank an entish potion" a good reason while you consider it unbearably cheesy. (I know I would)

 

And what if you want STR 30 halflings to be really really rare, STR 30 humans to be really rare, STR 30 ogres to be uncommon....

 

BUT, you also want DEX 30 halflings to be rare, DEX 30 humans to be really rare and STR 30 ogres to be unheard of?

 

In other words, what if you want race to be marginally more than a rubber suit pulled on over the same set of Stat.s?

 

i guess what it comes down to is either GM Fiat "Because I say so" or rules that *encourage* the style you want: personally I come down hard in favour of the latter.

 

And please, enough with the "paying for Stat. increases you might never use.." stuff. We don't DO that anymore :-)

 

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

Spent an Hour Cutting, Pasting, Composing...

 

Back to cutting and pasting. I should come here more often.

 

Before responding to specific posts, I would like to comment that no one even addressed certain points I made about using NCM and Age….so, to quote myself

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

It ensures that a 20 yr old man and a 40 yr old man have different rules for characteristics, but a Pixie and an Ogre have the same rules

 

It ensures that my Ogre pays double for exceptional STR, CON, and perhaps BOD, but your Half-Elf with the Age disad and lots of perception Skills and Powers and EGO based Glamour magick does not pay double for an EGO and INT up to 30

 

It ensures that my alien from a high gravity planet pays double for high STR , PD, and ED and your psionic with an Age disad does not pay double for high EGO, INT, and PRE

 

It ensures that my wizard's energy blast spell, his main attack, costs the same amount per die no matter how many dice I buy it up to, but my gladiator character who specializes in unarmed combat, after buying some martial arts and STR up to 20, must pay twice as much for more dice of HIS main attack, even if his damage classes are still short of the campaign limit

 

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

 

Cutsleeve

"you say that an ogre should get a break on str con and pd and ed because he is an ogre."

 

Who, exactly, has said that?

 

 

"Hero system lets you play any character in any place, time, universe, ect. some people just have a habit of trying to get those few extra points for something (-1/4 cannot be used while asleep) As far as ncm not making sense for seperate races/species it does because all races are build from the same point base and the same amount of points are spent by each on the same thing that doesnt mean a Dorkian cant have a strength 30 he just has to pay for it like all the other races pay for their high stuff thats how you balance it by making it all equal. going out and raising maxima does not equalize the races more it causes problems in balancing."

 

I’m in favor of making all races equal. I oppose NCM for all of them.

 

Phil Fleischman

 

"Perhaps this is where I don't understand you"

 

Perhaps not.

 

"I am suspicious of vague notions like "good reason." What exactly is a good reason? Anyone can come up with a reason why their character should have a 30 STR. It's easy: "I'm an ogre." "I drank an Ent potion." "I'm Conan." "I'm half-giant." "I've been blessed by the gods." "

 

Well, yes, anyone can come up with a reason why their character should have 30 STR. But it’s harder to justify for a Hobbit than for an Ogre. Frankly, I can’t think of ANY good reason a Hobbit should have a STR that high.

Now, suppose we dispense with reasons and just have NCM.

If you think it’s easy to come up with a good reason for a high char, it’s even easier to not have to come up with a reason, just spend the points. If you use NCM and have no "good reason rule" then NOTHING prevents florist friars. I’ll run right over to your game with my Brother Rose character and his sidekick Brother Orchid (remember them?)

I have a question. WOULD you permit those characters? If not - why not? They don’t break any rules, and they are built under NCM.

And to address the issue someone else has raised, that you may want certain high characteristics to be "common" for some "races," "rare" for others, "unheard of" for still others. Under NCM rules (the current official rules anyway), nothing makes it harder for a Hobbit to have a STR 25 than for an Ogre. If you require justification, the Ogre has it by virtue of being an Ogre, the Human needs some kind of backstory or disadvantage or the like, and the Hobbit is probably out of luck (exceptional things happen in fantasy, but can you really think of ANY reasonable justification to let a Hobbit START with STR 25?)

 

"And I see the same principle applying to races. You don't have to pay for being an ogre, you only pay for what being an ogre allows you to do. And of course the converse it true as well: You don't get anything free, just because of a special effect, personality, character history, etc., and that includes race. Just because you add the character detail "ogre" doesn't mean you should be allowed to buy STR for less than what other players have to pay.

This is the way I see it and the way I handle NCM and races. It seems the fairest to me. I go back to the central idea of the system: You Get What You Pay For, and You Pay For What You Get"

 

I am quite in agreement here. Unfortunately, under NCM, if I want a base characteristic over 20, I literally "pay two prices" to use my mother’s colorful phrase, rather than Getting What I Pay For and Paying For What I Get.

 

James Gillen

 

"Boy, this is getting complicated

 

"I’m starting to agree with Lucius; the NCM concept is getting to be too much math, and too much inconsistency, to be worth it. Odd, since cleaning up inconsistency and math seems to be Steve's rationale in making the NCM rule uniform"

 

Yes, I only came to this conclusion after seeing a LOT of threads come and go.

 

 

Old Man

 

"I've seen several campaigns where evey non-wizard wound up with 20 for the first four stats."

 

I think I mentioned that…in particular I have seen every warrior player character with a STR of 20.

 

 

Markdoc

 

"not sure that dumping NCM and letting players buy 40 STR fighters is a great idea (and the only other option is fixed caps)"

 

Except it’s not. Not the only other option that is. All I’m saying is, treat Characteristics like everything else in the game that would be subject to Campaign Limits. I believe the rules specifically say that it is possible to exceed the Limits on a case-by-case basis, for either good justification and character concept, or because the G.O.D. decides that this or that power is not unbalancing despite, say, a high active point total.

 

 

Phil Fleishman

.

"Numah, the Human has 30 STR (quite rare for a human)

Ergo, the Ogre has 30 STR (common for an ogre)

Gnilflah, the Halfling has 30 STR (really wierd for a halfling

.

"They can all do the same thing with their STR, in terms of game effect, therefore they should all pay the same amount for their STR"

 

Again, I am in full agreement. Except that I am not sure I’d allow a Hobbit ("Don’t call me a Halfling - I’m not half of anything!" Human looks down and says "My height." Hobbit looks up and responds "I’m not half your height - you’re twice my height!") with a STR of 30….unless I’m running a really really weird game.

 

 

 

 

Agent X

 

Originally posted by Old Man

Fine then, but what do you do to discourage the Halfling player from buying 30 STR in the first place? I personally am not interested in playing the wild fantasy genre.

 

"Just say no to the guy who wants a 30 strength halfling unless there is a good reason for it"

 

 

Thank you, thank you, Agent X.

 

And finally - what’s wrong with beautiful stories about Faeries and Ents? I thought that was supposed to be the POINT of the game, telling beautiful stories….

 

One must count points, else

Pointless the rules: but know that

Points are not the point.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Markdoc

"the idea that NCM applies to with the same levels to pixies and ogres, nut not to horses, elephants and palindromedaries is, well, just silly"

[Markdoc]

Having read this thread, it seems the problem is not NCM, per se (Lucius, if I read his comments correctly, seems not to have a problem with Age, which works *exactly* the same way). After all, do you defined "aged" for your immortal Elves and your humans the same? Do you limit the STR of elves over 60?

 

The problem is when you attempt to apply NCM (or age) at the same level(s) to all races/species, which plainly defies its (their) rationale for existence.

 

Yes, I know The Steve says NCM is 20 for everybody, and I can see why he said so - and also I can see that this thread ilustrates that he was wrong.

 

As pointed out above, NCM (just like Age) is thoroughly useful limitation: as a GM, I have no interest in dropping either of them from my toolkit, but I realise that a) both need to be balanced (if some Stat. limit.s go up, others must come down) and it needs to be changed to fit the GM's plans.

 

For me, the crucial deciders are: has NCM (applied sensibly) caused any problems in my game, or the games of my fellow GMs? (answer: No). has it had a beneficial effect (answer: yes). Is there another method that can serve as well? (Answer: we have tried "what you can justify" - it often leads to arguments. We have tried fixed caps - that were universally despised. So: No)

 

Other people may have had problems that have not been brought up here - but as I say, all the ones discussed here are essentially problems with GETTING ROUND A FIXED NCM OF 20 - and nothing to do with NCM (as a mechanism) at all.

 

cheers, Mark

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by Markdoc

The problem is when you attempt to apply NCM (or age) at the same level(s) to all races/species, which plainly defies its (their) rationale for existence.

This is my whole point: That is NOT its rationale for existence! It's for limiting high stats in non-super genres, not for defining races!

 

The "30 STR hobbit" issue is purely academic AFAIK. Have any of you ever had a player who wanted to play one? I haven't.

 

Why not, do you suppose? It's because most players know what a halfling is! If a player in my game wanted to be wierd and play a 30 STR halfling, I really wouldn't have that much of a problem with it, any more so than if they wanted to play a 30 STR human or a 30 STR ogre or a 30 STR gloof - as long as they pay the points for it. My only concern is that the PCs abilities make a good match for the difficulty of the adventure.

 

I'd have the same reaction to a player who said, "I want to be a wizard with 30 STR, a big sword, plate armor, lots of combat skills and no spells." I'd first say, "Don't you mean, you want to be a warrior?" If the player can't or won't understand the standard meanings of the words "wizard" and "warrior," that's his problem, not mine. He can still play in my game, just like any other warrior.

 

This may be a simple matter of GM style. Some see the GM's job as "enforcing." I see it as "allowing." That's one of the reasons I like HERO over B&D. In the latter, everything is strictly defined in advance. While in the former, you're allowed to build whatever you want, using the point system to keep it balanced, even if it's something wierd.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

The "30 STR hobbit" issue is purely academic AFAIK. Have any of you ever had a player who wanted to play one? I haven't.[

 

Shadowpup just had one a couple months ago. Actually it was 20 STR, and the player refused to consider playing anything else. So he doesn't play.

 

Why not, do you suppose? It's because most players know what a halfling is! If a player in my game wanted to be wierd and play a 30 STR halfling, I really wouldn't have that much of a problem with it,

 

But I would. I'm not interested in playing a wild fantasy campaign with no consistency or logic to the character conceptions.

 

While in the former, you're allowed to build whatever you want, using the point system to keep it balanced, even if it's something wierd.

 

In the particular case of Hefty Halfling the points don't balance at all. I strongly suspect the player in question simply wanted the inherent DCV bonus for the shrinking, without having to balance that out in any way. Sure, he's paying points for both the shrinking and the STR, but Hero is absolutely not balanced pointwise for heroic level games.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Old Man

In the particular case of Hefty Halfling the points don't balance at all. I strongly suspect the player in question simply wanted the inherent DCV bonus for the shrinking, without having to balance that out in any way.

I have no idea what the situation is here, but it is not logical to limit characters based on simple concepts. Maybe the player wants to play the "Heracles" of halflings (son of a god). Maybe the character does not know it is the son of a god, it just knows it is un-halfling-like strong. To force a player to only play within a limited concept is counterproductive to the versatility the HERO System provides over other game systems, IMO.

[Markdoc]

My Quote:

The problem is when you attempt to apply NCM (or age) at the same level(s) to all races/species, which plainly defies its (their) rationale for existence.

 

And Phil said:

This is my whole point: That is NOT its rationale for existence! It's for limiting high stats in non-super genres, not for defining races!

----------------------------------------------

 

Assuming that "non-super" was a typo, I kind of agree. NCM first popped up as a way of limiting high stat.s in *Supers* games, so that your Batman types did not have 40 STR.

 

Essentially, it was a way of defining your character as "human". So of course it IS a way of defining race - it's just that in supers games brimming with aliens, critters from alternate planes, cyborgs, warlocks, uncle Tom cobbly an' all, there is only one default race: human.

 

The problems with NCM only arise because a) in non-supers games (specifically: fantasy) it went from being a limitation you could purchase like Age, to the default and the default was set rigidly at 20, which ceases to make sense when you have "default" fantasy races that are different from humans.

 

Alter either of those conditions and the problem evaporates like (strangely enough) so much hot air :-)

 

cheers, Mark

[Heroman]

I agree with the misconception of NCM equating to "Normal Human Maximas". It has nothing to do with species, it have everything to do with a layer of limitations in a heroic level campaign. It is to keep your powers below a certain level to help with balancing. A troll who has a 30 Str should pay as much as a human who has a 30 Str from a point balancing standpoint. The racial package would give the troll more Str at the start, but at 20 he would pay double just like the human. You don't get anything for free, just because of your species.

 

What you *could* do, is have CHAR caps imposed on races while retaining NCM to keep overall power levels low. For your campaign, maybe, you would say humans are capped at 23 Str and trolls at 35. That way both pay points for everything they purchase, but allow trolls to exceed human capabilities. This method would also make magical methods of enhancing CHARs sought after.

 

Now, if you wanted to make it more of a racial characteristic maxima than a campaign limitation, I would suggest that your maxima simply be 10 above the CHAR the racial package would provide. This will, however, give 'free' points to certain racial packages. In example: If a troll package gives +5 STR, then I would make the STR NCM value for trolls to be 25. If the troll bought the STR up to 25, this would effectively give him 5 free points as compared to a human (who would pay double for 21-25). While this is nicer from a racial range perspective, it enforces the fact that not all species are created equal and some will effectively be more cost effective.

 

Both methods are easy to do on a single sheet/half sheet of paper only needed in character creation.

[Markdoc]

>>>Now, if you wanted to make it more of a racial characteristic maxima than a campaign limitation, I would suggest that your maxima simply be 10 above the CHAR the racial package would provide. This will, however, give 'free' points to certain racial packages. In example: If a troll package gives +5 STR, then I would make the STR NCM value for trolls to be 25. If the troll bought the STR up to 25, this would effectively give him 5 free points as compared to a human (who would pay double for 21-25). While this is nicer from a racial range perspective, it enforces the fact that not all species are created equal and some will effectively be more cost effective.<<<<<

 

And this is EXACTLY what I (and many others do). The trick (as GM) is to balance it off. If the troll gets 5 free points in STR, then he loses 5 points elsewhere (INT and DEX are traditional).

 

That encourages the perception (among the players as well as the fantasy population at large) that trolls are strong, but clumsy and stupid - but does it not *force* anyone to conform to that mould. If a player (or I as a GM) wants to play a smart, puny troll, he can. He may pay extra to move outside the racial NCM, but that's a choice to be made during character creation and play, like any other form of character development.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Heroman]

Yep. Now, the one thing to keep in mind is that this idea is about as bad as the paying of points for a cap increase you never use, but this time to the player's advantage. Now, a player will likely gain points for CHARs which will never be limited by the reduced caps.

In example: Ogre. Let's say the Ogre racial packags consists of 2 stats (just because only 2 makes it simple ):

Str + 5 (NCM: 25)

Int - 5 (NCM: 15)

If someone makes an ogre, lets his Int sit at 5 and spends points to cap his Str to 25, then he saves 5 points; the INT reduction when making a stupid ogre is not limiting.

In its defense, though, this nicely enforces the purpose of racial packages in that it shows a 'standard' for the race. Point-wise, you save points by developing skills which fall within your NCMs. You should not see a ton of Ogre scholars and I think this method works rather well for that.

Now, in the case of a person who works up an interesting, creative, and in depth background (not just overly complex or munchkiny), I would suggest this is just handled by awarding extra CPs based on the quality of their background (which could offset some of the racial caps to achieve the unusually high CHARs the PC possess). At worse, you will encourage quality backgrounds....

 

Oh, also, as far as CHARs bought as powers and the effect on NCM, I find this concept to be sheer crap and pointless, other than encouraging people to make up annoying & cheesy ideas. Suck down some math, and have em adhere to the NCM caps...

[Markdoc]

>>>Now, a player will likely gain points for CHARs which will never be limited by the reduced caps.<<<<

 

Presumably then you would never let a character purchase the Age limitation, which acts in exactly the same way? I assume you also don't use skill modifiers such as Scholar which gives the character free points if he buys lots of skills?

 

I'm being facetious, of course - simply pointing out that yes, if you take this approach then players who conform will gain a small cost benefit - and that this is precisely the point.

 

>>>>In its defense, though, this nicely enforces the purpose of racial packages in that it shows a 'standard' for the race. Point-wise, you save points by developing skills which fall within your NCMs. You should not see a ton of Ogre scholars and I think this method works rather well for that.<<<<<

 

You have stated it succintly, my dear sir.

 

>>>>Now, in the case of a person who works up an interesting, creative, and in depth background (not just overly complex or munchkiny), I would suggest this is just handled by awarding extra CPs<<<<

 

Ah but this, I wish to avoid at all costs. I am a practical GM. I like to make my life as easy as possible. I have seen all too many character concepts that are clearly beloved of their inventors which to me smell strongly of Gorganzola - and to be fair, I have had GMs reject what I felt were very interesting and fun character concepts. I have seen at least one high-quality game implode over this very issue.

 

As a GM, I am confident of my ability to skim a character sheet and note what is legal, what is not and what is questionable. I am not confident that I can always and fairly rule what is "a good concept" - nor frankly, do I want to.

 

Indeed, in my last long-runing game, the character that I thought had the highest dairy content turned out in play to be one of the most fun, and altered the game in ways that I had not anticipated. Ya just can't tell....

 

I have also noticed that some players will generate highly detailed backgrounds with glee, while others hate that aspect. You can force adherence to the rules: you cannot force creativity and attempts to get the players to make the characters that you would like to see as a GM just foster resentment.

 

 

>>>Oh, also, as far as CHARs bought as powers and the effect on NCM, I find this concept to be sheer crap and pointless, other than encouraging people to make up annoying & cheesy ideas. Suck down some math, and have em adhere to the NCM caps...<<<

 

Amen, brother!

 

piously, Mark

[PhilFleischmann]

So how does a 30 STR halfling ruin your game?

 

It wouldn't ruin mine. I'd rather have a player have more fun by playing the character he wants to play than impair his fun by not letting him play it, or kick him out of the game completely.

 

Granted, there is a limit. A 70 STR halfling would impare my game, but that has nothing to do with race or character conception. It would be the same with a 70 human or giant. I plan an adventure to have a certain level of difficulty and require certain actions/skills/abilities/etc.

 

If I was writing a fantasy novel by myself, I probably wouldn't include a 30 STR halfling. But this is a game with other people involved, not a novel.

 

And again, NCM (I'm talking about using it as a default in fantasy or other non-super genres), does not define a race, human or otherwise. It defines a power level.

[Lezentauw]

Originally posted by Heroman

Yep. Now, the one thing to keep in mind is that this idea is about as bad as the paying of points for a cap increase you never use, but this time to the player's advantage. Now, a player will likely gain points for CHARs which will never be limited by the reduced caps.

In example: Ogre. Let's say the Ogre racial packags consists of 2 stats (just because only 2 makes it simple ):

Str + 5 (NCM: 25)

Int - 5 (NCM: 15)

If someone makes an ogre, lets his Int sit at 5 and spends points to cap his Str to 25, then he saves 5 points; the INT reduction when making a stupid ogre is not limiting.

In its defense, though, this nicely enforces the purpose of racial packages in that it shows a 'standard' for the race. Point-wise, you save points by developing skills which fall within your NCMs. You should not see a ton of Ogre scholars and I think this method works rather well for that.

Now, in the case of a person who works up an interesting, creative, and in depth background (not just overly complex or munchkiny), I would suggest this is just handled by awarding extra CPs based on the quality of their background (which could offset some of the racial caps to achieve the unusually high CHARs the PC possess). At worse, you will encourage quality backgrounds....

 

Oh, also, as far as CHARs bought as powers and the effect on NCM, I find this concept to be sheer crap and pointless, other than encouraging people to make up annoying & cheesy ideas. Suck down some math, and have em adhere to the NCM caps...

 

What you are saying does not make much sense to me. I have tested this out in Hero Designer, and it works. Characteristics bought as powers modify the stat after you purchase them as a characteristic. So a halfing that wanted a 30 str, and say his racial modifer is -5 to Str, he would have to purchase a base 35 str. Then you apply the racial modifier. He would then end up with a 30 str for a cost of 40 pts without counting the racial package. Say if the oger had a +5 to his str, then the oger spent the same 40 pts on his str would end up with a str of 40. That would make the oger 4xs stronger than the halfling. If you do the math you will notice that this costs the exact same as saying the NCM is 10 over starting value, just a different way of looking at it. So if you would not allow a person to buy the racial characteristics as powers, then you should also not allow them to modify the NCM.

 

With all that said and done, I saw somewhere that Steve made the statement that characteristics are not bought as powers, and that NCM is 20 period. If you use low enough points, the halfing will be making a sacrafice in points to get that 30 str. Each character only gets so many points for disadvantages, and the -5 for str that would be in the halfling package would count against the max disad points. So that halfling character would be starting out with 5 less points than every other character, as he bought off that limitation.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Lezentauw

Each character only gets so many points for disadvantages, and the -5 for str that would be in the halfling package would count against the max disad points. So that halfling character would be starting out with 5 less points than every other character, as he bought off that limitation.

 

Actually you don't list the -5 STR as a disad. You list it as a racial power or skill, the same way you would list things like Nightvision. That way the Halfling will have access to just as many points in Disads as every other character.