Outsider Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again I thought Traveller was the most famous system for killing your character during its creation... I always liked FASA's Star Trek RPG... A game where it took 45 to 60 minutes to create a character, and then had 'wide angle disintigrate' as an option on the small arms... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Never tried Space Opera or Powers and Perils so I can't speak to the difficulties of those systems. But I literally could not figure out how Earthdawn spellcasting worked to the point where I could not make a spellcasting character of any kind. There was just too much talk of circles, levels, and pools, spread out across character creation, magic, and combat. And I've successfully made spellcasters in Shadowrun, FH (obviously) and Rollmaster/MERP so it's not like I don't know what I'm doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Oy - space opera. The game where I spent hours making a character that was too stupid or puny to gain any useful skills or have any significant life expectancy - and then I was expected to play him? Nuh-uh. Spent another few hours making some ridiculoulsy uber heavy-gravity-world command type, at which point we had entirely exhausted our fascinatin with the game and went back to Traveller:idjit: Never tried Powers and Perils, but gamed for some years with one of the people involved in its design. From some of his comments I think he was a bit hurt by its reception by the gaming world I had a copy of Earthdawn, won at a gaming convention as some sort of prize or other. I may still have it ...somewhere... Anyway, trying to deal with the magic system was enough to kill my interest, although I liked the background. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale A. Ward Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Indeed! Traveller gets my vote for top character-killing-during-construction. However, for sheer convoluted, Gordian-knot-style, character construction rules... my vote goes to Universe. It literally took me days to create a character with that game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Which is why people still look at me funny and call me a nerd. It's not that our hobby has a bad rap; it's that unless you're being indoctrinated by someone who already owns a secret decoder ring, it doesn't make any bloody sense. That's part & parcel of the "entry level" game argument. If there is one, it's D&D, if for no other reason than all the work is done for you. HERO is comparatively clean to some of what y'all have described; I played MegaTraveler on my 386 back in the day-day, and I recall character gen (and the hexadecimal math system... and the general bugs that left me with millions in credits for no good reason, but replaced my best weapons...) being one of the many reasons I didn't finish it. I remember really liking it but it being really broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again And people b*tch about making characters in Hero. I used to write up FH spellcasters, spells and all, in the space of a single Physics 232 lecture*, and had time left over to build a car for Car Wars. *Electromagnetism, in case you were wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Oddly - this thread is mirroring a discussion I've been having the last few days on a rpg design mailing list. I'll just point out that the speed of cardboad-cut-out-heroes is also offset by the fact that the hero you get, is still a cardboard-cut-out when your in session 500 of your campaign. Big drawback to D&D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidsnake Posted November 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again You know, it's odd. Were I just sitting there with a rule book I'd go bannanas, because the book I have (CHAMPIONS 4th, ordered HERO 5th Rev... still waiting... *sob*) is so barking opaque that it does make D&D look like ... well, like an entry level system. That is a massive discussion on the ENWorld boards at the moment. You've got the hard-core who, I think, are defending D&D by saying it ain't entry level, and you've got the lit-freak/math junky (moi) saying, in short: "Er... yeah, it is. Doi." HERO, with a good DM and a decent grasp of the rules, flows extremely well from concept to concept without the intermediate hassle of "What do I want to do within this limited framework." That's a huge sticking point for me, and one of the reasons I'm switching systems. It's come up with players, and amusingly, it's the reason people are constantly chucking around house rules on the boards. Not because they don't think what they're doing is right. It's because they literally don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again There has been talk of a "Heroes for Dummies" book - which I think would be of great benefit for new Hero players. The size of the rulebook is daunting, as well as the speed with which you are confronted with numbers and calculations. I don't think the layout is intuitive enough for beginners... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidsnake Posted November 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again You know, it's odd. Were I just sitting there with a rule book I'd go bannanas, because the book I have (CHAMPIONS 4th, ordered HERO 5th Rev... still waiting... *sob*) is so barking opaque that it does make D&D look like ... well, like an entry level system. That is a massive discussion on the ENWorld boards at the moment. You've got the hard-core who, I think, are defending D&D by saying it ain't entry level, and you've got the lit-freak/math junky (moi) saying, in short: "Er... yeah, it is. Doi." HERO, with a good DM and a decent grasp of the rules, flows extremely well from concept to concept without the intermediate hassle of "What do I want to do within this limited framework." That's a huge sticking point for me, and one of the reasons I'm switching systems. It's come up with players, and amusingly, it's the reason people are constantly chucking around house rules on the boards. Not because they don't think what they're doing is right. It's because they literally don't know. My other roomate still plays D&D but she want to run her first campaign but she told me that D&D is to confusing to use for her world but she wants to use D20 for now cause she used to the system but she is willing to give hero a try but I never push Hero on d20ers cause I know it works much better than d20 but I'll let them play in d20 darkness cause D&D players love to wander in the dark. And when my roomie ready I'll give her the keys to the kingdom of Hero.No rush I belive better more well written game will prevail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again There has been talk of a "Heroes for Dummies" book - which I think would be of great benefit for new Hero players. The size of the rulebook is daunting' date=' as well as the speed with which you are confronted with numbers and calculations. I don't think the layout is intuitive enough for beginners...[/quote'] I thought that was HERO Sidekick. Isn't it still available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Sidekick isn't Heroes for Dummies - it's "rules summaries for those who already play Hero" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Yeah, Hero desperately needs a beginner-level book. I shudder to think what would happen if I tried to figure out how to play Hero from scratch using just 5er. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Sidekick isn't Heroes for Dummies - it's "rules summaries for those who already play Hero" Oh... I thought it was: "Sidekick contains all of the core HERO System rules, including character creation, combat and adventuring, and equipment — but without all of the additions, options, and details found in the standard rulebook. Sidekick boils the HERO System down to its essential elements so you can easily teach yourself the game, bring new players into your campaign quickly, or refresh your memory on a crucial rule. And when you're ready to move up to the complete HERO System, learning it will be a snap because Sidekick's already taught you the basics!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Hmm - that's an experiment to try. Lend Sidekick to someone who has never played a roleplaying game before, leave it with them for a month to read/absorb the information (with no external help from roleplayers) - and then try running a game with them, or getting a review of the book. I'd also add "Hero Sidekick" is not the title that I'd put on a book intended for new roleplayers - it says nothing about it being an introduction to the Hero system. It assumes a) you know what Hero is and you are looking for an assistant book to the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again We've used HERO Sidekick succesfully to get someone introduced to the System. It's barebones doesn't distract the new player with all the shiny objects that HERO contains the core book. It's an excellent entry level book for anyone new to RPGs or just HERO in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Which is peculiar, because seeing as how this was originally CHAMPIONS and a super hero system, I never considered getting that book because... well, because I didn't need to create sidekicks for people. No, seriously. I assumed (as with most book titles for RPGs) that it contained all sorts of key information about creating, running campaigns involving, and playing sidekicks. Who knew? It is totally available, but I'm too thick headed, and generally an all-or-nothing propositionist. I'd rather hew my way through 5th and post questions as they come to me. I just learn better that way; it sticks better in my head when I've done it with my own two hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again heh ... OK, you know I never thought that name would cause that kind of confusion. As for me - I was introduced to HERO in a Fantasy Campaign first and have never really thought of it as a "Super RPG." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again It is totally available, but I'm too thick headed, and generally an all-or-nothing propositionist. I'd rather hew my way through 5th and post questions as they come to me. I just learn better that way; it sticks better in my head when I've done it with my own two hands. The thing about Sidekick is that it is not as intimidating as FREd or 5ER (The big black books). As GM, you need to have everything available to you. For your players (whome I'm assuming are relatively new to the system) Sidekick is a good thing to have (and cheap). No intimidation and easy access the major rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest taxboy4 Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Sidekick isn't Heroes for Dummies - it's "rules summaries for those who already play Hero" Yeah, I'd have to disagree here...all the new Players in my group get this to help them understand the basics of the game and if they want to practice generatiing a PC. It definitely has a secondary role as summary of rules for current players also... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Ah well - it's marketed badly then. Or at least is never mentioned in that role in my country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again I'd also add "Hero Sidekick" is not the title that I'd put on a book intended for new roleplayers - it says nothing about it being an introduction to the Hero system. It assumes a) you know what Hero is and you are looking for an assistant book to the system. Its certainly not the only misnamed HERO book -- take the CHAMPIONS genre book, which should be named SUPER HERO, and DARK CHAMPIONS which should be named ACTION HERO for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Let me chime in on SIDEKICK as well -- it is a fantastic tool for getting new players into the game. Personally, I think it is the single greatest contribution to the game that DOJ has made. Get a couple of copies and lend them out to your prospective players. Not only is it inexpensive, but it really is all you need to play the vast majority of HERO Characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest taxboy4 Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again Ah well - it's marketed badly then. Or at least is never mentioned in that role in my country. Probably needs renamed. You are right in that I give an overview of HEro and base mechanics / points system before the new guys read it. Maybe side kick should have a good intro to HERO as its introduction and be renamed Intro to HERO People new to roleplaying all together would also need more text... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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