Charges of End Reserve

[Gary]

Question

From the FAQ, it seems that it is legal to take charges on an end reserve. Isn't this extremely unbalancing?

 

For example, take a 2D6 autofire attack (45 active pts) that normally costs 20 end per 5 shot burst. You can buy a 20 end reserve with an active cost of 2, and put 1000 or more charges on it for a +1 advantage and a net real cost of 4 pts. It's even worse for any regular powers that cost 10 end or less per use since the active cost would be 1 pt and the real cost would be 2 pts. It's essentially an almost free 0 end advantage on all your powers that cost end.

 

This would be a problem for regular end with charges, although not quite as much of one since it's a 2 for 1 rather than a 10 for 1 situation.

 

Answer

This isn't a board for rules philosophy or balance discussions. If you think it's unbalancing, forbid it in your games.

 

Since Steve doesn't seem to want to answer this one, I'll ask the peanut gallery.

 

Does anyone out there feel that putting end reserve on charges could possibly be balanced? Would anyone ever allow it in their campaign?

[Force]

I would probably not allow it.

 

Kinda like buying +50 stun (or whatever amount) 4 charges (or whatever amount) set on a trigger *only when down to 1 stun or less*.

 

I would find it an abuse of the rules.

[DigitalGolem]

I'm using it for long-duration power supplies in Star Hero; put charges on the Recovery, and you've got a power supply that's good for so many charges, then goes dead. Most can't be recharged easily; they need fissionables, Helium-3, or anti-matter. Some can't be recharged at all, such as mysterious alien artifacts. So the actual advantage level varies considerably. Some examples

 

At one Recovery per turn:

 

1 hr = 300 charges

 

1 day = 7200 charges

 

1 month = 216,000 charges

 

1 year = 2.6 million charges

 

I've extended this back a few million years, for artifacts from vanished "type K2" civilizations. Anybody need an extra singularity?

 

DGv3.0

[Gary]

The trouble with end reserves on charges is that you don't need Rec. The charges automatically regenerate after 24 hours. And you only need 2-4 pts to make most powers effectively 0 end.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Charges of End Reserve

 

Originally posted by Gary

Since Steve doesn't seem to want to answer this one, I'll ask the peanut gallery.

Well, in fairness to Steve, you essentially didn't ask him anything of substance. Does he think his own ruling is extremely unbalancing? Obviously he does not, or he wouldn't have made it.

 

For my .02, I would rule that you're misunderstanding the effect of an END Reserve with Charges. A 20 END END Reserve with 1000 Charges would be worthless. As I see it, the number of Charges on an END Reserve just indicates how many times you can draw END from the Reserve. There would be no point in being able to draw END from a 20 END END Reserve 1000 times, unless you somehow have Powers that cost only .02 END.

 

Where Charges on an END Reserve becomes a useful concept, IMO, is a situation like having a power source that can only be tapped a certain number of times per day, regardless of how much power is drawn in each tap. For example, my super-sorceror might have a pool of magic might with an END Reserve of 500, and 8 Charges. This pool of might powers big, nasty spells, but he can only access it 8 times a day, even if there's END left in it after the 8th time.

[DigitalGolem]

Originally posted by Gary

The trouble with end reserves on charges is that you don't need Rec. The charges automatically regenerate after 24 hours. And you only need 2-4 pts to make most powers effectively 0 end.

 

True. In the example I used above, charges on the Reserve's Endurance is not allowed. (The Rec has charges.) And I agree absolutely, that sort of power construction is abusive.

 

DGv3.0

[nblade]

Originally posted by Force

I would probably not allow it.

 

Kinda like buying +50 stun (or whatever amount) 4 charges (or whatever amount) set on a trigger *only when down to 1 stun or less*.

 

I would find it an abuse of the rules.

 

Strangly enough that power construt could have uses with a few mods. Each charge would last only 1 phase and after that you would lose the +50 stun. For that one phase you would be up, but after that you would likely go back down below 1 stun, until 3 more phases past, since you would be out of charges. Likely you would try to recovery during the first use of the charge, so you wouldn't have to use the other charges or you just leave it as a "last great stand before your knocked out" kind of thing. Of course it can be an abuse, so I'd likely not allow a PC to have it, but something like it with a single charge could be interesting for a villian to have.

 

As to End Reserves on Charges, I'd likely have to see the actual construct.. I'm think it would be unlikely that I'd find one I'd allow. Still I think Steve's comment was more along the lines of "I'm not forbiding since there might be a cool effect only possible by allowing it".

[Gary]

Re: Re: Charges of End Reserve

 

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Well, in fairness to Steve, you essentially didn't ask him anything of substance. Does he think his own ruling is extremely unbalancing? Obviously he does not, or he wouldn't have made it.

 

For my .02, I would rule that you're misunderstanding the effect of an END Reserve with Charges. A 20 END END Reserve with 1000 Charges would be worthless. As I see it, the number of Charges on an END Reserve just indicates how many times you can draw END from the Reserve. There would be no point in being able to draw END from a 20 END END Reserve 1000 times, unless you somehow have Powers that cost only .02 END.

 

Where Charges on an END Reserve becomes a useful concept, IMO, is a situation like having a power source that can only be tapped a certain number of times per day, regardless of how much power is drawn in each tap. For example, my super-sorceror might have a pool of magic might with an END Reserve of 500, and 8 Charges. This pool of might powers big, nasty spells, but he can only access it 8 times a day, even if there's END left in it after the 8th time.

 

I could live with this interpretation, but the FAQ specifically states that using a charge of End Reserve gives you the defined amount of End that phase, and you can spend another charge in a different phase to get more End.

[Gary]

Originally posted by nblade

As to End Reserves on Charges, I'd likely have to see the actual construct.. I'm think it would be unlikely that I'd find one I'd allow. Still I think Steve's comment was more along the lines of "I'm not forbiding since there might be a cool effect only possible by allowing it".

 

If a character spends 10 end or less per phase, he could purchase 10 End Reserve with 1 million charges for 2 points.

 

If he spends 11-20 end per phase, he could purchase 20 End Reserve with 1 million charges for 4 pts.

 

If you want to get really abusive, you can take the X10 End limitation to get a -4 limitation for every power that costs end. Then you can purchase 100 End Reserve with 1 million charges for 20 pts.

[Tech]

Originally posted by Gary

If a character spends 10 end or less per phase, he could purchase 10 End Reserve with 1 million charges for 2 points.

 

If he spends 11-20 end per phase, he could purchase 20 End Reserve with 1 million charges for 4 pts.

 

If you want to get really abusive, you can take the X10 End limitation to get a -4 limitation for every power that costs end. Then you can purchase 100 End Reserve with 1 million charges for 20 pts.

 

I think there are a few valid reasons to use it. I have one character with limited uses of extra END and everyone has no problem with it. As GM, don't be afraid to allow something such as End Reserve with charges as long as it's not abusive. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of examples on these forums where players could abuse a power but if properly handled, they don't. The same applies here.

[Talon]

What bugs me about this ruling is less that it's abusive and more that it's inconsistent.

 

If I have an Ablative Force Field with 8 Charges that gets nuked in one Phase, it's still ablated if I activate it on my next Phase. Despite being a separate Charge, I'm still using the same power. Same thing with Charges and Burnout -- the Burnout accumulates across Charges.

 

An END Reserve with Charges should work the same way -- the character is using the same END each time, and if they used some of it before, it doesn't return unless the Reserve's REC has kicked in. It just seems to me like the consistent way to handle it.

[TheEmerged]

In my experience, you need to be fairly careful about putting ANY limitation on an END reserve. Keep in mind it effectively has a -1 limitation on the REC and a -4 limitation on the END already...

 

Having said that, I have toyed with allowing the REC to have charges -- although I required them to be bought at Continuing 1 Turn cost. I've also allowed the REC to cost END before

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Gary

If a character spends 10 end or less per phase, he could purchase 10 End Reserve with 1 million charges for 2 points.

If he spends 11-20 end per phase, he could purchase 20 End Reserve with 1 million charges for 4 pts.

 

That does seem abusive.

 

Originally posted by Gary

If you want to get really abusive, you can take the X10 End limitation to get a -4 limitation for every power that costs end. Then you can purchase 100 End Reserve with 1 million charges for 20 pts.

 

END Reserve specifically discourages the practice of taking Extra END on powers that run off an END Pool.

 

 

However, the metarule regarding using the more expensive means of building two identical power constructs would seem to apply (granted, I dont agree with that metarule, but there you have it); the million charge END Reserve to pay for the END cost of powers is really the same as buying a million Charges or 0 END as an Advantage on each and every power/characteristic that costs END and can use the Reserve. The more expensive means of doing this would be the most legal by the book.