The Range and speed of arrows

[mallet]

Can anyone tell me where I could find the "range" of arrows in the Hero System? I have looked and relooked though the 5th ed. but I can not find anything listing the ranges (I assume STR has some impact, but I can not see anything on that either.)

 

Also, over longer ranges, is it assumed that arrows take more time to reach their target then say a bullet or energy blast? Or do they loose damage the further they go because they loose speed?

 

Basically I am looking for any and all extra rules for archery. I assume the FH has them, I do not own it (I'm not a big fan of the genre (damn D&D for turning me off of fantasy)), but if these type of rules an included in that book (or any other book) I would appreciate the heads-up.

 

Thanks.

[MitchellS]

Re: The Range and speed of arrows

 

Range is generally based off of active points x5. So a 2d6 RKA arrow can travel 150 inches (30*5=150). There isn't usually an damage loss over long distances or any delay in an arror reaching it's target [they are all assumed to hit in the same phase]. If you want power loss or extra time then those are additional limitations on the power.

[mallet]

Re: The Range and speed of arrows

 

Ok, nice to know. Thanks for the quick reply MitchellS.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Range and speed of arrows

 

There are ranges listed for bows on page 166 of Fantasy Hero. I think this information has also been reprinted in the Hero System Equipment Guide.

 

The range numbers seem a little high based on some internet research I recently did on maximum bow range: ( Heavy Long Bow = 235" (470 meters!).

 

HM

[i3ullseye]

Re: The Range and speed of arrows

 

In order to model real world you can certainly adjust that however. And we are also looking ar max range, versus max effective range. And with the range penalties in play, I find that your effective chance to hit a target is at, or just under, the real world expectations.

 

As an aside... I once wrote up a document on Telekinetics (which was published in al old Haymaker actually) which covered everything form basic uses to a Martial Art designed for telekineticists. This was all 4th Ed, and I think maybe I need to dig it out and see what needs to be updated. But I bring it up for this reason...

 

I broke down how active points and strength related to damage, and thus determined the logical result of using telekinesis on an arrow to propel it toward a target. Generally it takes about 30 telekinetic strength to match the force of an arrow delivered accurrately form a strong bow. Telekinetics don't have the same sheer velocity of movement that the fired bow would, so they tend to be less efficient. I think i came up with about 8 Pts per DC.... but again this was under 4th ed and I will need to start looking at it again to see if anything has changed.

 

But the whole point of this was to see the real interaction between building bows and other forms of ranged damage. Bows are very efficient at harnessing their force to a specific point, and it is kinda tough to match that by other means. the real weapon range limitations however keep this in a bit of check, so you certainly shoudl enforce range penalties where applicable on bows.

 

Also, that Max range is just that, Max range... not reliable effective range. Anything over 64" is at -10 for range mod, so thats pretty hefty. Even if the bow WILL go to 235", to hit anything at that range requires a hit at -12 OCV. Thats with no other mitigating penalties.

 

Some Samurai and Normal Longbowmen were known for amazing feats of long distance archery however, and this would be best represented by range skill levels.

 

So for any man-made or real weapons... assume 5Xactive Pts as your max range... but consider that ANYTHING over 64" is really going to become unreliable in most hands anyway.

 

Looking at the basic weapons on pg 330 of Fred... Heavy Long Bow is 2d6 damage and 55 Active Points. Thats including a +1 RMod.... Max Range of 275". Even with this Rmod bonus, you are at -13 OCV at Max range.

[Nevenall]

Re: The Range and speed of arrows

 

I don't have much to add, but I can't resist chiming in.

I've used Extra Time (Delayed Phase, with lockout) to simulate the time it takes for arrow to reach a target, but Extra Segment might be more appropriate.

[i3ullseye]

Re: The Range and speed of arrows

 

Oh, the velocity part.

 

Hehe, ok... now I really am going to ramble a bit, so please feel free to skip this post once your eyelids droop.

 

One thing I tore into pretty heavily in the TK Article was the velocity of Telekinesis versus the velocity of a fired arrow. Right now, a standard arrow travels it's full range on the same phase it is fired. If we are to assume immediate release and immediate hit, all contained within that phase, that means whatever it's max range is becomes how far it moves per second. Thats 275" per second for this heavy longbow. Thats (275 x 6.5 ft) = 1787.5 Feet per second! About on par with a .44 Rem. Mag. (240 FP) at 1760fps. I this is a bit much for an arrow.

 

Yes, adding the delay of flight is an option. Further, it can make the cost of the weapon go down noticably. A flight time that maxes out it's travel speed woudl be ideal, but there may not be a way to accurrately model that in points.

 

For the record, both Crossbows and Longbows of medieval period style have been tested, and both have produced roughly the same velocity... right around 135fps. Yes, only 135fps. Thats 20 hexes... only 4 Active points worth of range! Now obviously if we go strictly real world, we can;t model this that way. But that does give us a reliable base to consider... the arrow flies at a speed of 20", and moves that full 20" on every phase. We coudl easily enough add a limitation "Real Arrow (-1/4)" and call it good I suppose.

 

One part I DO like about this, is that Speedsters can then outrun those arrows. And they really should be able to. This also gives soemone time to respond form a distance, and get their defenses up and in place. If the range is long enough, you coudl even allow for Dive For Cover to get out of the way of arrows.

 

But then, how does this match up with the other game powers?

 

Let's go back to telekinesis. Assuming we have 50 active points in TK, that gives us about 35 Strength, and a range of 250". This means we can affect anything within our range. We can move anything within this range also. But we can throw this item as if we had a Str of 35 and made a running throw. this means we can move it 28" or 182fps. This actually works very well for a comparison to an arrow, and maybe thats what we could base the velocity on.

 

Of coruse, this then unduly limits the max range of the bow, so doesn't work completely. We can't really apply the Strength to the bow itself either, because normal 15 strength warriors can pull bows that shoot much farther than this would indicate.

 

In the end (never thought I would get to an end eh?) I think that adding a limitation for arrow velocity, and capping it's movement to 20" per phase, might end up being the best approach if anyone wants to model real world archery for the game. With creativity, they could even use this to their advantage by leading targets, and timing their shots for specific effects.

 

It would add a lot, but it might also overly complicate matters. Same thing for arcing shots high to drop down to the targets. Maybe there is room for advanced archery rules for those who would want it, but I am not sure that the game woudln't be better served by keeping archery as fast as the other forms of ranged combat. Otherwise bows will become a rapidly ignored weapon in all but the most traditionally mundane campaigns.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Range and speed of arrows

 

http://www.martinarchery.com/faq/facts.php#velo

 

Assuming an arrow has a velocity of 180mph, that works out at about 40", assuming it moves each segment (effectively speed12), noncombat, AND I've got the maths right: but it sounds OK

 

So an arrow moves about 40" per segment. Cool. Maybe 45", but it is around there.

[Cancer]

Re: The Range and speed of arrows

 

I have read that although the velocities on release from crossbows and high-performance bows differ (with crank-drawn crossbows being higher), the aerodynamics and vibrational characteristics of most crossbow bolts are so much poorer than those of good arrows that the effective ranges of the two were the same, even for group volley shooting (where everyone in a unit of archers is trying to hit the same patch of ground of comparable size as the area occupied by the unit), as opposed to actual human targets. The crossbow bolts' speed decays much more quickly than the arrows, and it much more likely to yaw in flight.

[i3ullseye]

Re: The Range and speed of arrows

 

And era becomes a factor also. Modern bows are amazingly more efficient than bows of even 100 years ago, let alone the dark or middle ages.

 

But still, modelling for accurrate bow characteristics will probably end up making them considerably less desirably than other forms of ranged attacks.

[mallet]

Re: The Range and speed of arrows

 

But still, modelling for accurrate bow characteristics will probably end up making them considerably less desirably than other forms of ranged attacks.

 

I've got no problem with that. It makes it realistic. Hell, that's why the cops, millitary, etc... don't use them any more. They are a lot less desirable then guns for ranged combat.

 

Bow & Arrows are leagal to own and carry and anyone can walk into a sporting good store and buy them, guns, not so much. They need to have other drawbacks to make guns worth the hassle. Besides, if they can shoot 20"-40" in the users attack phase, then that is not a problem. Hell, most combat takes place with in that range anyways. Making them less useful at longer distances (with time delay, less penetration, etc...) is realistic and adds flavor to the weapon while not drastically effecting game play.

 

Also, anyone stupid enough to bring an arrow to a gun fight deserves to be shot to hell.

[Susano]

Re: The Range and speed of arrows

 

Also' date=' anyone stupid enough to bring an arrow to a gun fight deserves to be shot to hell.[/quote']

 

Obviously you've never seen Sin City's Miho in action.