Damage from extremely high velocity

[SteelDoom]

Howdy.

The GM in my game is having problems with my character flying so fast. He quite reasonably wants to start giving me damage if i am unshielded. At the moment we've come to a work around at a max of mach 5 with my force field up.

 

So, two questions.

1/ does anyone have any stats for damge at really high speeds?

2/ what do you think of this power as an alternative?:

 

Hyper Speed Shielding: Desolidification (40 Active Points); Does Not Protect Against Damage (Protects against environmental hazards due to high speed only; -1)

 

This could range from high flying avians to debri in space. Possibly Linked to what ever defensive power the characer has.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

You're playing a game where spandex-clad people fly without aircraft and your GM is worrying about realism? Why isn't he concerned with the inability of your character's lungs to pull in oxygen at that velocity, or your character incinerating himself from friction with the atmosphere (SR-71's flying at Mach 3+ heat up the leading edges of their wings red hot.)

 

In our group we've always operated on the assumption that if your powers enable you to do X; then you can do X without those powers harming you. Now admittedly slamming into a mountain at Mach 5 is likely to be fatal (use Move Through rules) so it might be safest to only hit those kinds of speeds at altitudes higher than mountains. But somehow I'd expect a guy with a Force Field to be able to survive a midair collision with a pigeon.

[SteelDoom]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

I have life support for the breathing and flash defence sight/hearing. It is the friction/heat issue that is a concern. I am the fastest flyer in terrestrial space or close enough and he isn't going to break my character over it... we would just like to get some feedback. We are kinda running with Max Forcefield cancels out Max Flight speed. So if anyone did drop my forcefield while at mach 5+ I would get a nice friction burn.

 

I have a mega scale flight that I can only use out of atmosphere (400km up or so). He won't let me buy FTL yet.

[Susano]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

See Trebuchet's comments above.

[SteelDoom]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

Thank you for the extremely informative information

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

In our campaigns where we have had very fast fliers, we always assumed that their heroic defenses protected them adequately (although we require life support for really high altitude flying). The fly in the ointment in our campaigns was how fast can you go while carrying someone else (especially a normal)? And would you want to go as fast as they could actually tolerate? Sure a normal could survive flying at 150 kph, but it wouldn't be a comfortable ride, would it? I confess to date we haven't had to hammer out hard and fast rules, it has always sort of been a handwaving plot point, but if anyone has some reasonable ideas I would be interested in seeing them myself.

 

_________________________________________________________

"Rich people scare me. They can already evade taxes." - Grim Reaper

[Susano]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

Thank you for the extremely informative information

 

*shrug*

 

The question is really how close do you want to simulate the source material -- in this case comics. If it was Wild Cards, then there might be a question of survival at high speeds, since Wild Cards tended to take a more realistic look at the issue (example -- shape shifters needed to gain extra mass from somewhere, so they tended to suck up paper, dust, debris, and electrical energy). In comics, I have yet to see a super-fast fly who had trouble with breathing, friction, and clipping a migrating bird.

 

Now, one idea is to link a Force Field to your Flight. This works really well (SFX-wise) if you're a telekinetic flyer or some such, with the FF being an off-shoot/side effect of your flight power. As for damage, clipping a bird in flight or smacking into an airliner is basically a Move-By or Move-Through. It is going to do a lot of damage at high speeds and yes, could pulp our hero! (Not to mention utterly destroying the aforementioned airliner).

 

As for damage due to air friction? I have no idea, although I am sure there are people here who might be able to do something for you. But then, if Superman, Apollo, Swift, Quicksilver, and the rest don't burn-up due to air resistance, why should you?

[SteelDoom]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

[quote=Susano

...But then, if Superman, Apollo, Swift, Quicksilver, and the rest don't burn-up due to air resistance, why should you?

A fair point, I think we'll just leave it at I have both force field and flight at maximum available active cost. However, thinking of it in this light, it should really not need any defences. The flight power itself supplies all the resistance needed other wise you are limitting the power. Hmmm

[Susano]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

A fair point' date=' I think we'll just leave it at I have both force field and flight at maximum available active cost. However, thinking of it in this light, it should really not need any defences. The flight power itself supplies all the resistance needed other wise you are limitting the power. Hmmm [/quote']

 

Correct. If you want to limit the power yourself, that is one thing, but to have a campaign rule imposed on one power due to high speed? Where the limits on STR preventing the lifting of objects that will otherwise break under their own weight?

[Kelcyron]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

As for damage due to air friction? I have no idea, although I am sure there are people here who might be able to do something for you. But then, if Superman, Apollo, Swift, Quicksilver, and the rest don't burn-up due to air resistance, why should you?

 

DC did actually address this at one point. Flash has a protective aura which keeps him from being harmed by running at high speed. In the Armageddon 2001 annuals, he had a son in the future who was born with superspeed but not the protective aura and gave himself terrible burns whenever he moved at high speed.

 

Of course, all of this could have been retconned out of existence by now.

 

Kelcyron

[Blade]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

I have to agree with Trebuchet, if you have superheroes flying to begin with, then surviving the flight is not the biggest "reality" problem you have.

 

That being said, if you want an idea for temperature (friction) effects, the temperature on the forward faces of the body in flight would be roughly as follows: (based on Sea Level Temperatures)

 

Mach # Speed (mph) Skin Temp (Farenheit)

1 750 140

2 1500 440

3 2250 940

4 3000 1640

5 3750 2540

6 4500 3640

7 5250 4940

8 6000 6440

10 7500 10040

 

The temperatures for speeds in excess of Mach 5 are a little high, because of effects like oxygen and nitrogen dissociating (splitting into individual atoms, rather than diatomic molecules) which tend to absorb energy and limit the temperatures a little. However, for reference, Stainless Steel has a melting point about 2500 F, and Tungsten melts at about 6100 F. The surface of the sun has a color temperature of about 10,000 F, and the Apollo re-entry capusles reached about 18,000 F on their lower surfaces on re-entry. The space shuttle experiences surface temperatures above 10,000 F also.

 

For impact effects, you can calculate the energy involved and compare to a standard, like a .45 bullet, and make some judgements. Energy would be:

0.5*m*V^2, and if you use mass in kg, and V in meters/second (or in Hero system terms: inches per turn/6) you will get Joules of kinetic energy. For comparison, a .45 bullet represents about 1000 Joules. Therefore if you run into an aviation standard bird (5 lb = 2.27 kg) at Mach 3 (2250 mph = 3750 kph = 1042 m/s = 6250 inches/turn) you will absorb 1.2 Million Joules of energy, or about 1200 .45 bullets. Given the doubling nature of Hero System Str, you might consider this a .45 (2d6 KA) + 10 DC (2^10 = 1024), or a 5d6+1 KA, and buy DEF accordingly. (The Air Force lost a B-1 to a pelican several years ago, the plane was just below Mach 1, and the pelican, about 12 lbs, hit the wing root, completely severing the wing. This is not a small amount of energy).

 

Again, I think that this may be the wrong place to start inserting realism into a superhero game, but this information might help, hope it does.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

Blade good. Blade smart. me rep Blade. me want eat Blade's brains....hmmm, brains...

Nah...

But Blade did provide exactly the type of answer you are looking for. If you want, those specific temp ranges could be converted to ED damage equivalents (non-resistant)...

BUT- a simple LS: Immunity to heat would cover it for a lot cheaper.

After all, this is just power induced heat, not an attack, or even Environmental-living-in-a-dangerous-world damage.

 

What you really have to worry about is not friction damage, but all those darn bugs on your windshield. What? no windshield? okay- your face. Not to mention getting a pigeon blasted into your air intake, I mean face.

[Susano]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

What you really have to worry about is not friction damage' date=' but all those darn bugs on your windshield. What? no windshield? okay- your face. Not to mention getting a pigeon blasted into your air intake, I mean face.[/quote']

 

I'll note that MPH in Astro City does wear a face shield!

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

DC did actually address this at one point. Flash has a protective aura which keeps him from being harmed by running at high speed. In the Armageddon 2001 annuals, he had a son in the future who was born with superspeed but not the protective aura and gave himself terrible burns whenever he moved at high speed.

 

Of course, all of this could have been retconned out of existence by now.

 

Kelcyron

The protective aura is still a staple of the Flash mythology. All of the Armageddon annual stories were averted, however, so no retocon necessary. I remember that story and was about to bring it up, kudos to you!

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

I'll note that MPH in Astro City does wear a face shield!

Speaking of, in Champions didn't Icestar wear goggles for high velocities?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

Handwave works for me. If you/your GM are really worried about it, other options could be:

 

Immunity: Friction Burns

 

+perception, only to spot/avoid possible collisions when flying

[Blade]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

If I was going to reccommend a package for fast flyers, I would say around 20 rPD/rED, and LS: High Pressure, Low Pressure, Self Contained Breathing, high heat, low heat.

 

The Def would be to deal with the aforementioned impacts of bugs/birds/raindrops and the heat of flight (This would, on the average, deal with my suggested damage for hitting a seagull at Mach 5, best to fly higher if you are going to fly faster). BTW, those temperatures are not due to friction, they are due to compression of the air in front of the flying object (whether it is man, missile, airplane, bullet, whatever), viscous heating (air friction) may raise the temperature a little more, but the recovery of "Total Temperature" (to use the gas dynamics term) is the majority of the temperature rise. This is the heating mechanism that brought down the space shuttle Columbia, after a failed heat tile allowed the high-temperature gas to get to the underlying structure. The LS: Low pressure is to deal with altitude, as those parts of the body that are close to parrallel to the flow direction will experience the local pressure, and the LS: High pressure is to deal with the high pressures on the leading edges of the body. At Mach 5 these will be up to 529 times the altitude pressure, at Mach 10 the leading edge pressure is 42,439 times the local pressure due to altitude. The self-contained breathing is obvious, and the temperatures are to deal with altitude and speed derived conditions.

 

I always liked goggles for fast moving characters, it just seemed to fit, so I would probably add Flash Defense (OIF Goggles) to the list, but that would be largely esthetic, as you could have goggles without flash defense.

 

[The rules of safe flight: Don't Fly at Night, Don't Hit the Ground, Don't F*** with the Red-Guarded Switches. You could also add: High + Slow = Bad; Low + Fast = Bad; Watch for Cumulo-Granite clouds....]

[SteelDoom]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

...fly higher if you are going to fly faster).

Thanks for the info, this is just what I was after.

Yes, my character usually flies well above the hight of birds when he is travelling around. I ended up buying a multi power for my flight. It has a combat flight with fast acceleration, a high multiplier non combat flight and a maga scale flight with "not in atmosphere" limitation. So I fly up a 100 km (not quite true outer space) or so and then kick in the mega flight to get over where I am going, then dive towards my landing site... quite spectacular at night! hehehe

[Blade]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

Actually, I think 100 km was the level set for the X-Prize private spaceflight competition, and IIRC, NASA gives out Astronaut wings for flights over 100 km altitude. I'm pretty sure a couple of men (Scott Crossfield comes to mind) got astronaut wings in the X-15 program. I would call 100 km outer space, even the shuttle doesn't go that much higher (depending of course on how you view these things) at about 300 km. BTW, if you can get up to about 7.5-8 km/s you can stay in low earth orbit without burning further END (at least by orbital mechanics, if not game mechanics)

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

While I like to attempt to address "realistic" (note the quotes) effects of super powers in games... there are a couple of caveats to this (mostly already stated by others)

 

1) The system doesn't have this built into it. You can do what you pay points for... no side effects. This is correct for a generic system, but sometimes the perceptions of players and GMs and such forget this... so it is important to make sure the entire play group is on the same page that the starting point is "no side effects."

 

2) If you choose to emulated "realistic" side effects, everyone should also be comfortable accepting that there is no way to capture EVERY possible side effect... so you will have to be choosing which bits of "realism" you are addressing. In the end, these bits should be addressed because they make for interesting character and story elements... not because the GM is looking to coral a player... nor because a player wants to munchkin a power. Any "realistic" bit that is emulated should probably have both a positive and a negative side effect for the player... if you are going to consider it part of the "no points" SFX.

 

3) If a GM wants a world that is more "realistic" and wants players to take this into account, a couple things likely have to happen. The players need to know and agree with this concept from the beginning (no springing on them "You are traveling Mach 4? Do you have protective gear, force field, etc? No? Ok...your eyeballs just implodes and are leaking down your cheek bones.") Second, and most importantly, if the GM expects the players to pay points for defenses and abilities that are implied in their concept but not required by the rules (like defenses vs. high velocity side effects) then they need to allow for higher point cost characters. The system, as presented, does not factor in all the points needed to cover every "realistic" side effect... it is not part of the system design considerations. While you can build a game using this concept... players will likely need a lot more points if they are expected to stat out aspects of their character that are "zero point assumptions" in the game as written.

 

This second piece can be addressed in two ways. Cooperative character making with the player, where the GM and she build together, and then extra points are tacked on to cover the costs of all the extra powers. OR... GM and player decide which powers will have "realistic properties" applied... and the GM sets a standard Limitation for the campaign. Say -1/2, because they feel that the points saved with this Lim are then spent to stat out the extra defenses, skills, whatever the GM feels should be "realistically" reflected.

 

Essentially... you can assume the side effect issues are taken care of for Zero points... or you can reduce the cost of the power and use them to pay for the side effect powers... essentially coming to the same point. Having them statted out compared to assumed is really just an issue of play preferences.

 

Good luck. I think you are tackling a fun aspect of building a bit more "real world" into supers... but it does take some work and cooperation to make it come out solid in game play.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Damage from extremely high velocity

 

The other issue besides heat friction, is the need to breathe. With normal human lungs, around 130 MPH it starts to become very difficult to inhale and exhale, and it's a safe bet that nobody human would be capable of pushing air into and out of their lungs at speeds in excess of 200 MPH. So, either the super has superhuman lung power(which becomes more powerful the faster they can fly--would certainly explain a certain big blue boy scout's hyper-expulsion powers), a helmet and breathing apparatus, a forcefield which allows them to breathe, or somehow doesn't need to breathe.

I once had a campaign mega-villain be capable of flying faster than escape velocity in atmosphere, his passing would be noted by a long flaming contrail in the sky...