Detecting and overriding mind control

[The Souljourner]

We had an interesting situation come up in the game last night... our mentalist noticed a guard acting very strangely and wanted to figure out if he was mind controlled, and if he was, figure out who was doing it, and override the mind control with his own.

 

We couldn't find anything under mind control, mind scan, or telepathy... Is there a way to do this?

 

-Nate

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

5ER, pg. 119, may be what you're looking for: "Competing Mental Powers."

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

We had an interesting situation come up in the game last night... our mentalist noticed a guard acting very strangely and wanted to figure out if he was mind controlled, and if he was, figure out who was doing it, and override the mind control with his own.

 

We couldn't find anything under mind control, mind scan, or telepathy... Is there a way to do this?

 

-Nate

See page 119 of 5ER.

HM

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

5ER' date=' pg. 119, may be what you're looking for: "Competing Mental Powers."[/quote']

 

You're quicker on the draw than me Doc!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

You're quicker on the draw than me Doc!

Only by about 60 seconds or so. Forum-wise, that's not really more than a hair's-breadth of difference.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

Cool, thanks guys.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

Err...is it just me, or would everyone allow the mentalist to take a Phase to study the guard in detail and use Mental Awareness (with or without a Per Roll) to detect this without any invasive Mental Powers at all?

 

If not, how about something like 'Analyze: Mental Sovereignty'?

 

I'm sure a strong enough Telepathy could do the job, but is it overkill if the original Mental Power didn't have Invisible Power Effects?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

If a mentalist had bought Mental Awareness up to Discriminatory or Analyze I probably would.

 

The base level a Mental Awareness granted by mental powers shouldn't allow this, IMO.

[austenandrews]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

It depends on the SFX, as usual, but in general I'd allow a good PER roll on Mental Awareness to detect Mind Control. It'd have to be a really good roll to detect the source.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

Mental awareness could detect someone being effected by a mental power at the moment it is used (and if the mind control was being maintained) BUT as MC is instant, after it is applied and if it is just left to decay at its own rate, I do not see how the fact of mind control would necessarily be obvious to mental awareness - I would require a telepathy attempt, and that would only work if the target knew they were being contolled, or a more comprehensive build for mental awareness.

 

Mental awareness itself does not have 'discriminatory' so technically it can not even tell what type of mental power is being used, and certainly would not be good enough to detect who had launched a mind control ex post facto.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

Mental awareness could detect someone being effected by a mental power at the moment it is used

 

Affect - verb, meaning to change

(the villain was affected by a mental power)

 

Effect - noun, meaning result of

(the effect of the mental power was to control his mind)

 

I know you almost certainly already know that, but it's a pet peeve of mine, and maybe someone else who doesn't will get it now.

 

... and to stay on topic - I like the idea of analyze on Mental Awareness, I think that's perfect.

 

-Nate

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

Hmm... I think I'm inclined to differ with the group on this one. I'm not sure Mental Awareness is the best way to go for this effect, even if the Mental Awareness has Analyze bought for it.

 

A continuing-effect Power like Mind Control kinda goes through "stages" of effect. First you have the stage where the Mind Control power is being actively used on the target (this may be instantaneous, or may be quasi-continuous if the mentalist is opting to pay END to prevent the target's EGO rolls from getting easier). Then you have the stage where the power isn't actively being used, but the target is still under the influence of the power. Lastly, you have the stage where the target has gotten free of the power, but might (depending on how you conceive of Mental Powers in your campaign) have some kind of discernable after-effects of the control if you have a way to discern them.

 

To me, Mental Awareness allows you to sense when stage 1 is in effect. I don't think I'd allow it to work on the later stages. To explain why, let me offer an analogy...

 

Let's say we've got a piece of light metal, which represents our Mind Control victim. A blowtorch represents the Mind Control. Applying the blowtorch to the metal is stage 1. The blowtorch being turned off, but the metal still being warm to the touch, is stage 2. The metal being cool to the touch, but possibly showing signs of warping or damage if you know how to find them, is stage 3.

 

In this analogy, Normal Sight is the sense analogous to Mental Awareness. Normal Sight would let us see when the blowtorch was being applied to the metal in stage 1, but it would not let us see that the metal was warm in stage 2. (Yes, I know the metal might be red-hot or some such. But assume for the sake of this illustration that it wasn't heated that far... it's warm, but not visibly different.) If we wanted to know that the metal was warm in stage 2, we'd need to use another sense, such as Touch or Infrared Perception. And figuring it out at stage 3 might be a different sense and/or Skill again, such as Microscopic Vision (to see minute deformities) or SCI: Metallurgy (to recognize the non-visible signs of heat damage on metal).

 

Likewise, I wouldn't say that Mental Awareness, even with Analyze, would let us sense Mind Control when it wasn't actively in use. Mental Awareness with Analyze would tell us things (when we caught the Mind Control actively being used) like what sort of mental power it was (if there are campaign differences between magical mental powers vs. psionic mental powers, for example), or who the mentalist is, or possibly even what the command is (if the Mind Control is Telepathic), etc.

 

To sense the use of Mind Control after it's no longer actively being used would seem to me to require a different sense... perhaps a specific Detect. Alternately, it might even be a Skill application... perhaps Analyze (Effects of Mental Powers) or PS: Psychic or some such. In this case, you'd actually be recognizing the type of behavior or physical signs associated with Mind Control, rather than directly sensing the power itself.

 

On the other hand, if the target was someone the friendly mentalist knew reasonably well and interacted with, it might be as simple a matter as a PER or INT roll to notice that the person was "acting funny." I would probably also rule that the friendly mentalist could detect the ongoing effects of a previous Mind Control, even on someone they don't know, if they contacted the target with Telepathy at the EGO+20 level or higher (read into the memory to discover that the target isn't acting of his own volition). Then, of course, once he knows that the target has been Mind Controlled, he can use his own Mental Powers to help them break out, per the standard rules on 5ER 119.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

I think it's all in how you want to define how Mental Powers work within the Game, does someone who is under the effects of a Mental Power still show up as Mentally Visible in the same way someone under the effects of an Entangle shows up as Entangled?

 

Is it affected by the +20 modifier on the effects roll if the Mentalist was going for, and achieved, a hidden result?

 

Once the GM and Players figure out how they want to handle ongoing Mental Powers what Detects one needs to determine if someone is under a Mental Power Influence will become clear.

 

The rules themselves seem to leave that imbiguous enough to let the group determine how they would like to handle it, which is good IMO.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

I like your analogy Derek, but I think Mental Awareness is adequate for sensening the continuous effects of a Mental Power. Instead of a blowtorch, imagine a water hose. Your stage one would be the hose spraying an object with water. Stage two would be the object all wet, and stage three would be after the water had dried up.

 

Detecting all of these stages using plain old, unmodified Mental Awareness:

 

Stage One: Obvious. It will even get your attention if you weren't looking directly at the target or attacker.

 

Stage Two: Noticable. You might not notice it right away, and probably won't even notice it if you aren't paying attention to the target. If the target is looked at directly though, it's noticed.

 

Stage Three: Unknown. Well, not much to detecting this stage unless you were already aware of stage two or earlier in effect. You'll notice when stage two ends, but not necessarily that it ever existed if you hand't encountered the taget during stage one or two.

 

In all stages, plain Mental Awareness can't identify which Mental Power is being used, let along what effect it's having. The perceiver can't tell the difference between a casual conversation between two telepaths and a hard fought struggle against Mind Control. An Ego Attack bought continuous or if END is continuously paid for a continuing effect Mental Power, the affect on the target is perceived as a perpetual stage one effect.

 

As for determing what Power is being used, Mental Awareness would require Discriminatory.

 

If you want to know what the Power is doing to the target, you'd need Analyse. As an added boost, I'd rule that buying Analyse would allow the perceiver to spot mental signatures left over from the use of Mental Powers, making stage three noticable, and creating a stage four, when the signagure is faded completely or been erased.

 

In any case, I'm sure it will all be cleared up in The Ultimate Mentalist. [tapping foot impatiently in the author's direction]

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

Affect - verb, meaning to change

(the villain was affected by a mental power)

 

Effect - noun, meaning result of

(the effect of the mental power was to control his mind)

 

I know you almost certainly already know that, but it's a pet peeve of mine, and maybe someone else who doesn't will get it now.

 

... and to stay on topic - I like the idea of analyze on Mental Awareness, I think that's perfect.

 

-Nate

 

 

I do know and so should know better. Consider me adonished

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

Mental Awareness is not, of course, the only mental sense you can buy. You can buy 'detect mental power jiggery-pokery', if you want. Mental awareness specifically detects mental powers for 3 points (+ sense for 5), and adding discriminatory and analyse won't change that, but if you made the base detect 5 or even 10 points - you can detect a much wider rage of things - including, I would proably say - minds under compulsion or otherwise effected by mental powers.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

Mental Awareness is not' date=' of course, the only mental sense you can buy. You can buy 'detect mental power jiggery-pokery', if you want. Mental awareness specifically detects mental powers for 3 points (+ sense for 5), and adding discriminatory and analyse won't change that, but if you made the base detect 5 or even 10 points - you can detect a much wider rage of things - including, I would proably say - minds under compulsion or otherwise effected by mental powers.[/quote']

 

I think Mental Awareness already does all that on its own though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

I think Mental Awareness already does all that on its own though.

 

Looking at the descroption, it just detects mental powers. If someone is mind controlled, even though it has a continuing effect, the only time the mind control would be visible to Mental Awareness by my reading is when it is actually being used to assert control, otherwise it is not there: the target brain has been re-wired, and the MC is no more visible than an EB would be, a phase after it was used. At least with the EB you could use normal vision to examine the wounds caused, so you could deduce that a EB had been used. Mental Awareness, as built in the book, does not entitle you to detect the CONSEQUENCES of the use of a mental power, just the actual use of one at the time it is used. Of course, expanding the detect spectrum of MA is only going to cost between 2 and 7 points.

 

Least, that is how I read it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

Looking at the descroption, it just detects mental powers. If someone is mind controlled, even though it has a continuing effect, the only time the mind control would be visible to Mental Awareness by my reading is when it is actually being used to assert control, otherwise it is not there: the target brain has been re-wired, and the MC is no more visible than an EB would be, a phase after it was used. At least with the EB you could use normal vision to examine the wounds caused, so you could deduce that a EB had been used. Mental Awareness, as built in the book, does not entitle you to detect the CONSEQUENCES of the use of a mental power, just the actual use of one at the time it is used. Of course, expanding the detect spectrum of MA is only going to cost between 2 and 7 points.

 

Least, that is how I read it.

 

I guess I just disagree with you then. For 5 points, I see it as a full Detect of a class of things, which would include the "residue" left behind after being used but still affecting the target. The target is still under the direct influence of the Power after all.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

I guess I just disagree with you then. For 5 points' date=' I see it as a full Detect of a class of things, which would include the "residue" left behind after being used but still affecting the target. The target is still under the direct influence of the Power after all.[/quote']

Though the situation's never come up for me before as a GM, I think I'm largely in agreement with Dust Raven on this one...I'd let someone with mental awareness at least be able to make a PER roll to see if they notice a "mental residue".

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

I guess I just disagree with you then. For 5 points' date=' I see it as a full Detect of a class of things, which would include the "residue" left behind after being used but still affecting the target. The target is still under the direct influence of the Power after all.[/quote']

 

 

No, I think you are agreeing with me: mental awareness is a 3 point detect or a specific thing (mental powers) with the extra two points coming from the 'sense' adder...

 

Mind Control could work by changing memories temporarily. The power is instant: once the memories are changed they stay that way until they return naturally, like a wound healing, but that does not require any ongoing effect from the power, and there is nothing there to detect except the 'mental wound' which appears to me to be quite different t a 'mental power' and so not detectable with basic mental awareness.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

I'd think at the very least Mental Awareness would allow a Skill of some sort (probably an Analyze Skill, but possibly even something like Tracking) to be used for this, even if Mental Awareness by itself isn't sufficient. (Hmm. How about even adding the Tracking Sense Modifier to Mental Awareness?)

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

While point values have changed for many things from 4th to 5th, descriptions have not.

Please refer to Ultimate Mentalist.

Mental Awareness WOULD reveal Mind Control.

Discriminatroy and analyze would probably provide data like SFX, the controller, how strong the control was (EGO+X) or maybe even what the command was. (as opposed to the rolls and skills presented in UM)

But MA would detect it as MC.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

No' date=' I think you are agreeing with me: mental awareness is a 3 point detect or a specific thing (mental powers) with the extra two points coming from the 'sense' adder...[/quote']

Seems you're right there. I've been under the assumption that the Mental Group gave Sense for free. Oops on my part.

 

Mind Control could work by changing memories temporarily. The power is instant: once the memories are changed they stay that way until they return naturally, like a wound healing, but that does not require any ongoing effect from the power, and there is nothing there to detect except the 'mental wound' which appears to me to be quite different t a 'mental power' and so not detectable with basic mental awareness.

 

I can see your point, but I still disagree. I think I should clarify something though. Mental signatures are an assumed aspect of all of my games, and at least from the 4th edition Ultimate Mentalist, a default aspect of the Hero System rules, and they are detectable with Mental Awareness.

 

We really need the new Ultimate Mentalist don't we?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detecting and overriding mind control

 

I really like presdidigitators idea; use the tracking adder - perfect for detecting something after it has passed by