Missing

[Sean Waters]

Reading a couple of other threads, i wondered what effect a superbattle would have on the surrounding environment - often a city. I mean, if a 14d6 blast of ravenning energy doesn't expend itself in vapourising Necrotron, what is it going to do to the building behind him?

 

I must admit I tend to ignore all that for simplicity's sake, but it is a point, isn't it, especially if the heroes care at all about normals and their effect on them.

 

Anyone got any rules for this sort of thing? I'm looking for something that is not going to overly tax my GMly concentration or completely paralyse the poor old PCs.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Missing

 

Do you mean, other than the optional rules for "Missed And Random Shots" on 5E p. 284/ 5ER p. 423? I'll sometimes use those rules when it seems dramatically appropriate, e.g. if the PCs are fighting in an area where they know there's a lot of fragile/flammable/explosive etc. stuff, or plenty of innocent bystanders. Sometimes if I'm using a tabletop map I'll just extend the line from the attacker to the (missed) target until it connects with something interesting. I'll often throw in the "Breaking Buildings" rules from Champions p. 161 for high-powered combat when comics traditionally show a lot of environmental damage.

[incrdbil]

Re: Missing

 

I'll give a heart thumbs up to what Lord Laiden just said.

 

the environmental damage depends on the genre? If its a pure silver age type thing, buildings reappear quickly. Iron age, you spend time with Hunted: Insurance Company, 14-, NCI.

 

I will make note of damage, usually just making aruling. I never slow down play with dice rolling for environmental damage--I use pure average results, and only if the environment matters. And really, you could rationally avoid detailing such damage until after the fight, as peopel in a fight tend to focus on the opponent. Ie, the last foe hits the ground, the dust settles, and the PC's turn around to see the devastation around them.

 

I'd make exceptions for things Heroes would care about. "Well, Blowtorche's blast missed you..but a quick glance shows the shot just hit that school bus!"

 

You might want to place meaningful potential damages (there is a school here, or this factory has lots of full oxygen bottles) to enhance the danger of a scenario, and maybe even make notes of potential combat complications in other areas, but don't focus on them. again, its genre, but even the players in themost gritty of games might start worrying too much about every shot they take or chase they get in.

[mallet]

Re: Missing

 

 

 

You might want to place meaningful potential damages (there is a school here, or this factory has lots of full oxygen bottles) to enhance the danger of a scenario,

 

The worst is when it's a school built ontop of a factory filled with lots of full bottles of oxygen. Now, that's just bad city planning....

[incrdbil]

Re: Missing

 

Hmm, how about a graham cracker factory, a chocloate factory, and a marshamallow with an refinery next door? You can have a fight, and then dessert!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missing

 

Hmm' date=' how about a graham cracker factory, a chocloate factory, and a marshamallow with an refinery next door? You can have a fight, and then dessert![/quote']

 

We've done that before on a smaller scale: KB through a truck carrying high pressure Bovril (it is how they transport it: honest) then through a truck carrying feather pillows, then into a Republican convention. Weird.

 

Anyway, the Hero missed and random shots rules basically amount to 'it is up to the GM': I was wondering if anyone had something a little more codified: you could roll once a turn to see if anything unfortunate go hit, and by whom, or some sort of formula for totting up property damage (average DC x average SPD x length of combat in turns x $100, or something). Whilst i'm all for GM discretion in theory, it is noce to be able to blame the dice for picking on the players occasionally...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Missing

 

To be honest, I really think it should be up to the GM rather than random rolls. I mean, think about it... Unless you're talking about a Power with some kind of weird Indirect effect, attacks travel in straight lines. So, as LL notes, you draw a straight line between the attacker and the target he just missed, and continue that line beyond the target. Something on that line beyond the target gets hit.

 

Who decides what exists in the environment? The GM. Therefore, who decides what gets hit? The GM.

[incrdbil]

Re: Missing

 

Anyway, the Hero missed and random shots rules basically amount to 'it is up to the GM': I was wondering if anyone had something a little more codified: you could roll once a turn to see if anything unfortunate go hit, and by whom, or some sort of formula for totting up property damage (average DC x average SPD x length of combat in turns x $100, or something). Whilst i'm all for GM discretion in theory, it is noce to be able to blame the dice for picking on the players occasionally...

 

Well, let's make it up. Let the bse roll be set by the Genre.

 

Like Silver age 3 , Bronze from 8 , Iron 11

 

Modify by

 

Use of Body damage creating AE or explosion powers+1

Autofire attcks +1

Maybe a modifier based on unluck posessed by one of the Heroes (atrributed dirtectly to that her0, +1 per level of unluck)

Excessive Collaterla Damage (many players tossing cars, ripping up power lines, collapsing walls,) GM's call 1 to +5

 

Length of fight in turns (+1 per turn)

 

Number of Combatants

 

4-6 0

7-12 +1

13-24 +2

25-50 +4

50-100 +8 etc..

 

Average Active Points of attack powers used

 

20 or less -2

30 -1

40 0

50 +1

and so on...

 

As to who to pin the balme on, well, the actiosn of the individuals just have to be taken into account--and hevily inflouenced by genre.

 

As for damage--I'd so something like # of Combatants x Turns x Average x(variable), then use multipliers. Add the multipliers like advantages.

 

The variable is baesed on the genrwa, and the time--a 1940's game might use 100, a more modern game use 1000-- a game set in an art museum might use 10000.

 

 

Area effect atatcks used more than once (+1)

Autofire atatcks Commonly used (+1)

Deliberate wide area damage by [particiaptns (see above) +1 to +5

Average Active points of powers/10

Environmental factors (They blew up a refinery)--oh heck, just make up a number.

 

 

Just a start off the top of my head.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missing

 

Well, let's make it up. Let the bse roll be set by the Genre.

.................

 

 

Mint.

 

I'll give that a try next time I run Champions

[prestidigitator]

Re: Missing

 

Ah, lawsuits. A superhero's nightmare. "The Incredibles," twined that in pretty well.

[incrdbil]

Re: Missing

 

Mint.

 

I'll give that a try next time I run Champions

 

Let me know how it goes and some of the things you dream up to add to it.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Missing

 

I had a campaign die because of this issue. Doomsdave was playing yet another brick, and got into a fight with with a DEMON demon.... It happened downtown and the demon decided that the jail would be a great place to crash into (had nothing to do with the massive KB Doomsdave did, honest.) Meanwhile the speedster was zipping around attempting to look useful, saving more jailbirds than deputies.

After the battle the speedster started griping about the damge to the county jail, and before I knew it, the campaign was over because he wasted 3 hours that day arguing about it with everyone.

I had to start a new campagn- which out of spite Doomsdave named his next brick "Collateral Damage"

I was tempted to make all the following battles take place in a cornfield.

 

Now I only deal with stray damage when I want to make it a subplot.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Missing

 

I think that if you make sure players are aware of it ahead of time, it can be a very interesting part of the game. You might want to make villains a little less powerful, though, since the heroes are going to have to be more careful when they start a-blasting. Suddenly you're not just moving to get into range, you're moving so if you miss, you won't hit that elementary school behind the villain. (I think a lot of shots will be taken as "I aim down some, so if I miss, it hits the ground 10 feet behind him"... and then you're just keeping the paving contractors in business).

 

I think it's a neat idea. You have to have a way for the Heroes to deal with the after effects, though. If it mires the campaign in litigation and that takes over the plot, it's no longer fun. But I think that's probably easy to avoid.

 

I like anything that adds more tactics into a game (well, up to a point).

 

-Nate

[sinanju]

Re: Missing

 

I'll give a heart thumbs up to what Lord Laiden just said.

 

the environmental damage depends on the genre? If its a pure silver age type thing, buildings reappear quickly. Iron age, you spend time with Hunted: Insurance Company, 14-, NCI.

 

Hmmm....that gives me a mental picture.

 

Captain Amazing turned at the faint noise and saw a man watching him. A man in a business suit. (Not now,) Captain Amazing thought. (Not when I've finally tracked Mr. Blister to his next victim's home!) Half a block away, typical rush hour traffic moved in stops and starts, horns occasionally blaring.

 

"This is no place for you, citizen!" Captain Amazing began.

 

"I have something for you," the man interrupted.

 

"What?"

 

"I have a subpoena for you," the man said, holding up the briefcase he was carrying in one hand. "I'm a process server from Ingolf & Devore Insurance Company. Are you going to accept service, or do we have to bring the press into this?"

 

Captain Amazing sighed gustily, annoyed and not bothering to hide it. "Very well. Let's have it--then you really need to go."

 

"Certainly, sir." The process server set his briefcase on top of a closed dumpster, unlatched it and flipped it open. Golden light played across his features, and across the features of Captain Amazing, who gasped as if he'd been knifed in the belly.

 

"Unobtainium!" Captain Amazing whispered. Sweat sprang out on his face and his color faded. "You've got Unob...tainium in...your...." His legs went wobbly and he collapsed, only semi-conscious at the feet of the process server.

 

"That's right," the man said cheerfully. He picked up a couple of walnet-sized chunks of the extremely rare precious metal and knelt at Captain Amazing's side. "It was damnably expensive to get--especially this much of the stuff. But the accountants assure me that it will pay for itself in the long term."

 

He shrugged. "Not that I really care. I'm just the messenger. And the message, Captain Amazing," he said with a sudden snarl, "is don't...****...with Ingolf & Devore!"

 

Captain Amazing wasn't listening, of course. Even if he wasn't unconscious, he was too wrapped up in the agonizing pain that Unobtainium caused him. The process server pulled a silenced pistol from the briefcase and carefully applied the International Mozambique Pattern to his victim--two to the chest, one to the head. Captain Amazing didn't even twitch after the second shot.

 

But the process server was nothing if not thorough. He dropped the pistol back in the case, then drew out a pair of rubber surgical gloves and a knife from the briefcase. He pulled the gloves on. Two quick cuts thru the fabric of Captain Amazing's costume--as well as his no-longer-invulnerable flesh--and there was plenty of room to push the two chunks of Unobtainium deep into Captain Amazing's torso, nestled amongst his vital organs.

 

Pulling the gloves off with a rubbery snap, the "process server" tossed all his tools back into the briefcase, closed it and walked away. A block away he thumbed a switch to activate the time-delayed thermite bomb inside the case and dropped it into another dumpster.

 

...and now you know what Samuel Jackson and John Travolta were carrying around in that briefcase in Pulp Fiction.

 

As for the actual topic of the thread--I think images of battle-torn WWII Europe give us a good idea of what it would really be like if humans capable of throwing that kind of energy (or those sorts of punches) regularly did battle in the streets.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Missing

 

My GM's have done this sort of thing when it makes good dramatic sense or maybe on a "critical fumble", but not just any random miss.

 

In general, I think this tends to be something we mostly ignore though, since it unfairly punishes the energy projector type more then anyone else.

[incrdbil]

Re: Missing

 

In general, I think this tends to be something we mostly ignore though, since it unfairly punishes the energy projector type more then anyone else.

 

Bricks could easily be major offenders. Martial Artists are the least likely to cause much damage. again, I'd only make this a significant feature for campaign purposes, or when players are just getting carried away.

 

"Okay Mr. Reckless--you use your TK to trap The Masked Misdemeanor under crates of Explosives, while Captain Deathwish Beats him with the Gasoline Truck. Major Catastrophe will fire his large explosive gun at the stolen truck of biochemical weapons while Suicidal Lass puts up the force wall to stop the runaway truck of Nitro!"

[Bloodstone]

Re: Missing

 

Well, if we want to talk about causing wanton destruction in general, then yes the Brick has great potential

 

But if we are only concerned about bad stuff happening on a missed attack roll, then it generally won't apply to melee types as much as ranged types.

 

A character with a 60 STR and a 12d6 punch will almost never have as much fear of missing his target as a character with an equally damaging Energy Blast. All the brick needs to do is make sure there isn't anything to hit within 1" of him. If the energy projector wants to play it safe, he better make sure there isn't anything to hit within 300"...

 

Now if the brick in question has improved reach from a weapon, stretching, growth or whatever, that might change things. If battles are constantly happening in very confined spaces or with innocents running all over the field, then the brick could legitimatly hit someone/something by accident. Missing on a Move Through could also be pretty devestating.

 

But in general, a punch isn't going to be at risk of missing and taking out a bussload of nuns or an oil refinery.

 

Also, are you going to apply this rule to Egoist's?

 

Player: "I'm going to have Witchfire use her Mind Control on Grond. I'll command him to stop fighting." **rolls dice** "oh crap! How can I miss an ECV of 3?!?!"

 

GM: "Well, it appears you have hit Defender by accident. That command was to stop fighting right? " **evil grin**

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missing

 

I do like the idea of running a game where the heroes have to be careful and, even though they may be more powerful than the villains, they can't just unload on them ubless they can move them somewhere first that isn't going to be devastated by a miss.

 

I mean, I would not want to play it this way al the time, but it might be an interesting twist for Socially Responsible Hero .

[The Souljourner]

Re: Missing

 

The brick may not miss and hit a building down the street, but he also has to run up to people and punch them while the energy caster sits back and blasts from his armchair. Just another benefit for the good ole punch.

 

-Nate

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Missing

 

While a brick usually doesn't directly hit buildings (usually)... Doomsdave

The enemies they hit often suffer enough KB to knock them through walls in the building.

Not to mention things like ripping out lamp posts, trees, chunks of the street, throwing cars as weapons, etc.

The propblem with Socially Responsible Hero . is that the villain doesn't give a rat's *** about damage, a lot of them actually revel in it. Knowing that the hero is attempting to avoid that damage is just going to make the villain want to stay even closer to populated expensive locations. Luring them away would be harder than fighting them in the first place.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Missing

 

The propblem with Socially Responsible Hero . is that the villain doesn't give a rat's *** about damage' date=' a lot of them actually revel in it. Knowing that the hero is attempting to avoid that damage is just going to make the villain want to stay even [b']closer[/b] to populated expensive locations. Luring them away would be harder than fighting them in the first place.

But that's all part of the fun! It can make a superheroic combat into something more than just a hex map wargame. Even in the midst of a heavy fight the heros have to be heros; not just machines of destruction.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missing

 

While a brick usually doesn't directly hit buildings (usually)... Doomsdave

The enemies they hit often suffer enough KB to knock them through walls in the building.

Not to mention things like ripping out lamp posts, trees, chunks of the street, throwing cars as weapons, etc.

The propblem with Socially Responsible Hero . is that the villain doesn't give a rat's *** about damage, a lot of them actually revel in it. Knowing that the hero is attempting to avoid that damage is just going to make the villain want to stay even closer to populated expensive locations. Luring them away would be harder than fighting them in the first place.

 

....but you don't GET any more in-genre than that, do you? I mean look at a lot of Spidey's villains. If he could just cut loose they would be a fine red mist inside three panels: the guy took down FireLord, for goodness' sakes. That is not how it happens though: The Hobgoblin throws a grenade not AT Spidey, but at the crowd KNOWING that Spidey is going after it and so will be easy prey for the SECOND grenade pitched at the same point. Villain throws a car at Spidey, he doesn't just duck and flatten them, he throws up a web-net to catch it to stop it flattening the onlookers.

 

In fact part of the trademark banter is to DISTRACT the villain from all the soft targets and make them aim at Spidey directly.

 

Even when he could cold-**** the villain he pulls punches and so on.

 

Socially Responsible Hero (SRH) would allow those with a genuine role-playing bent to have a great time. I appreciate it will not be everyone's cup of tea, but it would certainly make villains who are willing to kill scarier even if they had no realistic prospect of taking down our heroes.

 

OK Spidey has been the main example here, but Superman and all the caring heroes do it: I've even seen Bats save by-standers. There was a recent thread about megascale knockback and I commented that there were likely to be a lot of civilian casualties. The response was that there will always be a lot of civilian casualties in a superhero conflict. I accept this in a 'realistic' game, so I guess my games are not that realistic.

 

I mean the law is a funny old thing, but, like it or not, if you (certainly in this country) get into a fight outside a shop window and get pushed through the window, you are guilty of criminal damage (well both you and whoever you are fighting would be guilty of it), because you are reckless as to whether damage would be caused. If you were fighting to stop the other chap committing a crime, and your use of force was reasonable, you'd have a defence, but you could still easily be prosecuted for it. If someone got killed, you can bet you'd be up before the Courts.

 

If you ARE running a 'realistic' game then the legal consequences of your actions should be as realistic as the immediate 'combat' consequences. That is why I was interested in how people had modelled the chaos of combat in terms of collateral damage: if you had a villain throw a car at a PC and they got out of the way, how many of your players would pause to check where the car was going to land before retaliating?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missing

 

....or what presdidigitator said

[prestidigitator]

Re: Missing

 

...if you had a villain throw a car at a PC and they got out of the way' date=' how many of your players would pause to check where the car was going to land before retaliating? [/quote']

Answer: as GM you don't give them the (perceptive) choice. You don't make them take a moment to consider; you just say, "As you are about to Dodge, you notice the crowd of innocents behind you that are also in the path of the car...." THEN the hero has (probably limited) choices, but you make it plain that one of those choices isn't to simply blind themselves to the consequences of their actions.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Missing

 

Answer: as GM you don't give them the (perceptive) choice. You don't make them take a moment to consider; you just say' date=' "As you are about to Dodge, you notice the crowd of innocents behind you that are also in the path of the car...." THEN the hero has (probably limited) choices, but you make it plain that one of those choices isn't to simply blind themselves to the consequences of their actions.[/quote']

 

So now I have to be their consciences too?

 

You are, of course, absolutely right, although whether they find out the unintended target of that flying car before or after it lands may do a lot to set the campaign tone...

 

At the start of this thread, when I posed my question, a number of people said 'well that's up to the GM, isn't it'. I think they might have been right, you know, although, as usual, it has taken a while to talk me round