Costs END Only to Activate

[Utech]

I have not tried out this Advantage but I find it hard to swallow. I would love to hear from those who have. In practice, do you find Costs END Only to Activate essentially the same as 0 END -- a +1/2 Advantage?

 

Costs END Only to Activate is recommended "only for Body-Affecting Powers and the like." It seems to me those powers are generally activated either

1) Outside of combat (where the END cost to activate really doesn't matter)

or

2) On Phase 12 (to be followed by a Post Segment 12 Recovery that renders the END expenditure a non-issue).

 

For the record, the Body-Affecting Powers are:

Density Increase

Desolidification

Duplication

Extra Limbs

Growth

Multiform

Shape Shift

Shrinking

Stretching

[ghost-angel]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

It's worth the same ... once in combat they tend to have the same effect: Keeping a continuous power going without needing to expend resources to do so.

[Utech]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

It's worth the same...

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Costs END Only to Activate is a +1/4 Advantage

0 END is a +1/2 Advantage

 

15 points of Growth with Costs END Only to Activate = 19 points

15 points of Growth with 0 END = 22 points

 

Clearly they are not worth the same. But it seems to me that Costs END Only to Activate would actually work just like 0 END in practice. Am I wrong? Have you found Costs END Only to Activate actually less of an Advantage than 0 END?

[Gary]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

It's balanced for most Body affecting powers because:

 

1) They're overpriced for what you get (Growth, Density, Shape Shift)

 

2) You have to turn it on or off frequently (Stretching, Desolid)

 

3) They don't cost End such as Extra Limbs.

 

Where it may prove unbalancing is with powers that aren't overpriced and you don't have to turn it on/off in combat such as Multiform, Duplication, or Shrinking.

[Mentor]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

Costs END only to activate is an Advantage that made the difference for a Metamorph villain I built being mediocre and really tough for our team. The concern that Shape Shift is too costly to be useful never happened in our campaign.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Costs END Only to Activate is a +1/4 Advantage

0 END is a +1/2 Advantage

 

15 points of Growth with Costs END Only to Activate = 19 points

15 points of Growth with 0 END = 22 points

 

Clearly they are not worth the same. But it seems to me that Costs END Only to Activate would actually work just like 0 END in practice. Am I wrong? Have you found Costs END Only to Activate actually less of an Advantage than 0 END?

It's entirely possible I'm crazy ... I had intended to say something else and was distracted by work ... nevermind me. I'll be moving along now...

[Utech]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

It's balanced for most Body affecting powers because:

 

1) They're overpriced for what you get (Growth, Density, Shape Shift)

Seems to me that those Powers ought to be repriced rather than rely on tacking on a silly Advantage...

 

2) You have to turn it on or off frequently (Stretching' date=' Desolid)[/quote'] I can't imagine anyone chooseing this Advantage for Stretching. Do you think it likely that a character would want often want to stretch out and then just stay stretched for a while?

I don't think I've ever seen Desolidification activated many times in any given Turn before. My experience may be extraordinary. Have others found this?

 

3) They don't cost End such as Extra Limbs.

Powers that don't cost END are clearly beside the point, yes?

 

Where it may prove unbalancing is with powers that aren't overpriced and you don't have to turn it on/off in combat such as Multiform' date=' Duplication, or Shrinking.[/quote'] Have you found this to be the case?

[Utech]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

Costs END only to activate is an Advantage that made the difference for a Metamorph villain I built being mediocre and really tough for our team. The concern that Shape Shift is too costly to be useful never happened in our campaign.

Could you elaborate please?

[Gary]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

Seems to me that those Powers ought to be repriced rather than rely on tacking on a silly Advantage...

 

Lots of things are overpriced or underpriced in the system (Str, Dex, ECs), but there's no push to change their costs. At least this Advantage helps somewhat with these powers even if they're still somewhat overpriced.

 

 

I can't imagine anyone chooseing this Advantage for Stretching. Do you think it likely that a character would want often want to stretch out and then just stay stretched for a while?

I don't think I've ever seen Desolidification activated many times in any given Turn before. My experience may be extraordinary. Have others found this?

 

IME, characters turn Desolid on/off quite frequently in combat as they protect themselves and wait for a good opening to attack. Plus characters frequently Abort to it.

 

 

Powers that don't cost END are clearly beside the point, yes?

 

Have you found this to be the case?

 

I don't encounter many Shrinkers, but I imagine they could gain a great deal of benefit using this advantage. I don't use the system rules for Duplication/Multiform, but I would probably disallow this advantage for those 2 powers.

[Utech]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

IME' date=' characters turn Desolid on/off quite frequently in combat as they protect themselves and wait for a good opening to attack. Plus characters frequently Abort to it.[/quote']

Wow! How fast are these characters? I haven't had any characters with Desolidification that had a Speed greater than 5. I found they only activated their Desolidification once or twice in a given Turn...

[Mentor]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

Could you elaborate please?

I don't have the character sheet at the office with me but I can give you a general breakdown.

 

As part of a multipower, Rakshasa (I named him well before FREd came out:D ) the stretching demi brick with other morphing type powers could move about unsuspected very much as Mystique did in the X Men movies. Not having to worry about END unless he changed shapes, the PC was an ideal penetrator and spy. Because of the power cost, he could not use many of his other powers while morphed, but looking like an innocent bystander or even an ally sure set up some surprise bonuses when he did attack.

 

When combat ensued, the PC defaulted to his regular form and put the points previously in Shape Shift into his combat and defense abilities. Without having to expend huge quantities of END while Morphed, the guy was ready to rumble.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Costs END Only to Activate is a +1/4 Advantage

0 END is a +1/2 Advantage

 

15 points of Growth with Costs END Only to Activate = 19 points

15 points of Growth with 0 END = 22 points

 

Clearly they are not worth the same. But it seems to me that Costs END Only to Activate would actually work just like 0 END in practice. Am I wrong? Have you found Costs END Only to Activate actually less of an Advantage than 0 END?

 

Like others have already said, it depends on the type and combination of powers it is applied to.

 

Another example that shows how Costs END Only to Activate is not as usefull as 0 END is when making a 'Ultra-Boy' type character. Buy an all 'ultra-slot' multipower with lots of offensive AND defensive powers. Then buy each slot with Costs END Only To Activate. Now the character can allocate his reserve towards any 1 or 2 multipower slots indefinitely but when he needs to change from 'invulnerability' to 'super-strength' to save the inocent bystandard from being crushed by a collapsing building he has to spend full END to activate the new power. It puts more emphasis on player choice of actions as to how quickly the character will get tired in combat.

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

Seems right to me. "Never costs END" is +1/2. Normal END is +0. There's nothing besides +1/4 in between, is there?

 

As for Body affecting powers, these tend to be powers that have a reason to be shut off. You don't stay constantly desolid, grown, density increased or shrunk.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

It's also useful for other effects, like Armor ala Iceman. And it's particularly useful when coupled with Increased END Cost, to simulate Powers that cost a large amount of END to start, but nothing to maintain...

[Utech]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

It's also useful for other effects' date=' like Armor ala Iceman.[/quote']

In my opinion, it is altogether too useful for that sort of thing. I can't imagine Iceman having to spend the END for his Armor more than once per Turn. In my opinion, that's a +1/2 Advantage.

 

And it's particularly useful when coupled with Increased END Cost' date=' to simulate Powers that cost a large amount of END to start, but nothing to maintain...[/quote']

OK, the Increased END Cost might actually make a difference in a combat situation. I can see that. But only at high END costs. Otherwise I imagine the power would be activated on Phase 12 and the END immediately covered by the Post Segment 12 Recovery in most cases.

[Utech]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

Seems right to me. "Never costs END" is +1/2. Normal END is +0. There's nothing besides +1/4 in between' date=' is there?[/quote']

Well, 1/2 END is a +1/4 Advantage... Is this Advantage worth the same?

 

As for Body affecting powers' date=' these tend to be powers that have a reason to be shut off. You don't stay constantly desolid, grown, density increased or shrunk.[/quote']

I can easily imagine a character wanted to stay Desolid or Shrunk for purposes of infiltration. They could activate the power in a safe place, regain the spend END (taking a couple of Recoveries to do so if the END cost is multiplied) and then walk around the Viper nest Desolid or Shrunk all day. I don't see that as being any less advantageous than having the power at 0 END.

 

But several people have pointed out that combat may be different. Again, I'm not so sure. I think there is plenty of reason to maintain Growth or Density Increse all the time in Combat. You pay the END cost in Phase 12, take your Post Segment 12 Recovery and spend the rest of the combat enjoying the use of your power at 0 END. I don't see that as very different from having the power bought at 0 END to begin with. Am I missing something?

 

Desolid seems like the only real case where you'd be constantly turning on and off in combat. Let me try to answer my own question about this with a quick comparison:

 

Case 1:

Desolid Dude has Desolid Costs END Only to Activate and SPD 5. He turns it on in Phase 12, spends the 4 END for the power and immediately regains them with his Post Segment 12 Recovery. In the following turn he runs somewhere on Phase 3 and ignores an attack, turns the power off on Phase 5, punches someone on Phase 8, turns the power back on during Phase 10, and runs somewhere else during Phase 12. Total END cost 4 points (for Desolid) during that turn.

 

Case 2:

Same dude, same power, same actions at 1/2 END. Total END cost 6 points (for Desolid) during that turn.

 

Case 3:

Same dude, same power, same actions at 0 END. Total END cost 0.

 

Nope. Didn't answer my own question. While Costs END Only to Activate is clearly not as good as 1/2 END in this situation, it is better than 1/2 END for the same Advantage cost. Don't like it.

 

Am I being too picky?

[Utech]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

When combat ensued' date=' the PC defaulted to his regular form and put the points previously in Shape Shift into his combat and defense abilities. Without having to expend huge quantities of END while Morphed, the guy was ready to rumble.[/quote']

I'm not sure I understand. This seems to be just the sort of thing I was worried about.

 

Are you saying he got all the benefits of 0 END (a +1/2 Advantage) while using Costs END Only to Activate (a +1/4 Advantage)?

 

Doesn't that just seem sort of . . . wrong?

 

Am I missing something?

[Force]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

I'm not sure I understand. This seems to be just the sort of thing I was worried about.

 

Are you saying he got all the benefits of 0 END (a +1/2 Advantage) while using Costs END Only to Activate (a +1/4 Advantage)?

 

Doesn't that just seem sort of . . . wrong?

 

Am I missing something?

 

Sounds like you think Zero End Cost is under priced as well as Costs End Only to Activate.

[Utech]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

Sounds like you think Zero End Cost is under priced as well as Costs End Only to Activate.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

I don't think 0 END is under priced. I've used it as a +1/2 Advantage for years and like it. (Much better than the bygone system of buying 1/2 END, another level of 1/2 END, another level of 1/2 END...)

 

I suspect that Costs END Only to Activate just doesn't add up. I have not used it and would like to know how others have found it working out.

 

Responses so far lead me to believe it should be a +1/2 Advantage -- same as 0 END -- because I don't think that having to pay END only at activation is more than a -0 Limitation on an otherwise free power. In extreme circumstances, sure. But those are extreme.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

Responses so far lead me to believe it should be a +1/2 Advantage -- same as 0 END

Then absolutely no one would ever take it, for any reason. Why on earth should I pay an Advantage cost for my Power to cost END sometimes, when -- for the exact same cost -- I could have it never cost END? That doesn't even make any sense, IMO.

 

Hugh has the right of it. Costs END Only to Activate is +1/4, because it's better than costing END all the time (+0), but not as good as not costing END at all (+1/2). There's no other value in between except +1/4.

 

It's just like Limitations that affect the Range of a Power. No Range at all is only -1/2. so any Limitation that restricts Range without taking it away completely can only be -1/4.

 

Nothing ever said that all +1/4 Advantages had to be absolutely equal in utility. It's a whole gamut of effects that fall into the bucket of "Better than +0; not as good as +1/2."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

In my opinion' date=' it is altogether [i']too [/i]useful for that sort of thing. I can't imagine Iceman having to spend the END for his Armor more than once per Turn. In my opinion, that's a +1/2 Advantage.

 

So why (friom a gamist perspective) should anyone take "costs END once per turn" instead of "0 END"? The one is less advantageous than the other.

 

I also think you are forgetting that a power which costs END to activate cannot, by definition, be persistent and will therefore shut down and require reactivation (with attendant END cost) should the character be stunned or knocked out in the course of combat. They don't get to activate it once and have it guaranteed to stay up throughout the combat.

 

As to the "activate on phase 12" issue, this is not an issue because of Costs END to Activate. It is a system manipulation trick that applies to many other game issues (may as well attack/push/use my high END powers in the startup Ph 12 - I'll get all the END back with PS 12 anyway), and also ocurs with each subsequent Ph 12 as players assess their END and STUN needs, and how much they will recover.

 

There are a number of threads on mixing up the speed chart, many of which add a random element to when that PS 12 arrives to minimize these issues. If all you're worried about is when combat starts, invest in a d12 and roll it at the start of combat instead of defaulting to PS 12.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

Well' date=' [i']1/2 END[/i] is a +1/4 Advantage... Is this Advantage worth the same?

 

Derek answered this, but I'll add are both of those worth the same as Difficult to Dispel, Personal Immunity, Hardened, 32 charges,Delayed Effect, Time Delay, Does Knockback, 1st tier Indirect, IPE to Hearing or 2-3 shot autofire?

 

The gradations have to stop somewhere.

 

I can easily imagine a character wanted to stay Desolid or Shrunk for purposes of infiltration. They could activate the power in a safe place' date=' regain the spend END (taking a couple of Recoveries to do so if the END cost is multiplied) and then walk around the Viper nest Desolid or Shrunk all day. I don't see that as being any less advantageous than having the power at [i']0 END[/i].

 

Unless you need to become Solid to switch on a light, pick up a sheet of paper, open a filing cabinet, etc. etc. etc. Or grow back up to see what's on the desk, each the light switch, or open that filing cabinet.

 

The fact there will be instances where this power is as useful as one with 0 END doesn't mean they're worth the same. Armor Piericing is as useful as a normal attack if your target has hardened defenses, but the fact Armor Piercing is sometimes no more useful doesn't mean it should be +0.

 

But several people have pointed out that combat may be different. Again' date=' I'm not so sure. I think there is plenty of reason to maintain Growth or Density Increse all the time in Combat. You pay the END cost in Phase 12, take your Post Segment 12 Recovery and spend the rest of the combat enjoying the use of your power at 0 END. I don't see that as very different from having the power bought at [i']0 END[/i] to begin with. Am I missing something?

 

As long as all combat takes place on an open field, you're good to go. If you want/have to follow a villain through a narrow or short opening (into a stand of trees; into a doorway; down a narrow alleyway), you may need to shut down that growth. If you're walking over mud, or tossed in the water, Density Increase becomes somewhat less than advantageous.

 

And, as noted above, you have forgotten these powers will shut down if you are Stunned. Awakening from KO is even worse, since you awaken with END = STUN. "If I activate my Force Field, I won't have enough END to attack" seems markedly different from "Activate force field at 0 END - just enough END left to fire off my EB" to me.

[Force]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

I don't think 0 END is under priced. I've used it as a +1/2 Advantage for years and like it. (Much better than the bygone system of buying 1/2 END, another level of 1/2 END, another level of 1/2 END...)

 

I suspect that Costs END Only to Activate just doesn't add up. I have not used it and would like to know how others have found it working out.

 

Responses so far lead me to believe it should be a +1/2 Advantage -- same as 0 END -- because I don't think that having to pay END only at activation is more than a -0 Limitation on an otherwise free power. In extreme circumstances, sure. But those are extreme.

 

Then please explain to me why if they are both a +1/2 Advantage that costs 0 End would not be 'under priced" when Costs End to Activate is also a +1/2 Advantage?

[Mentor]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

I'm not sure I understand. This seems to be just the sort of thing I was worried about.

 

Are you saying he got all the benefits of 0 END (a +1/2 Advantage) while using Costs END Only to Activate (a +1/4 Advantage)?

 

Doesn't that just seem sort of . . . wrong?

 

Am I missing something?

Only if he didn't need to change shapes to someone else during the course of spying, which he did. So the real END cost depends on the number of times times the power was used, much like and Energy Blast.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Costs END Only to Activate

 

I suspect that Costs END Only to Activate just doesn't add up. I have not used it and would like to know how others have found it working out.

 

Responses so far lead me to believe it should be a +1/2 Advantage -- same as 0 END -- because I don't think that having to pay END only at activation is more than a -0 Limitation on an otherwise free power. In extreme circumstances, sure. But those are extreme.

I've used END Only to Activate both as a GM and as a player. From my experience the pricing is correct at +¼.

 

As an example, in our Champions campaign currently our team brick Silhouette has it on her Density Increase. But she can't have her DI on all the time because when she's at full density she weights over 900,000 pounds. Our team's VTOL jet (or even our new starship) couldn't even get off the ground with her Density Increase on. Since we've already had several occurrences of being under attack while our vehicles are in flight (and over a third of her total defenses come from her DI) I'd call that a real Limitation. Were Silhouette to activate her DI while in one of our team vehicles is in flight she'd literally tear our jet apart and stop our starship from moving (she weighs over twice what it does); nor could she walk around in our HQ without falling through the floors.

 

Now if your campaign is such that the PCs always know in advance when combat is going to start and get to activate their Powers in Phase 12 prior to combat you might have a point. But in our campaign they're frequently attacked from ambush on Phase 12; meaning they can't activate defensive Powers until after they're attacked (and that's if they haven't been Stunned or KO'd). Given all that, +¼ seems right to me. In other words, like all Advantages and Limitations it's only worth something if it's applied. It's up to the GM to ensure it's not too inexpensive.