Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

That's why I used a .44 Magnum and not something low powered like a .22. I wanted to indicate a gun that is designed for taking people down.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

Realize this' date=' as well. With 2 BODY people, you have people getting killed by an angry house cat. (1 point HKA versus no armor = 1 point of BODY!)[/quote']

I almost pointed that very example out.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

Realize this' date=' as well. With 2 BODY people, you have people getting killed by an angry house cat. (1 point HKA versus no armor = 1 point of BODY!)[/quote']

Even better, hit location Head or Vitals, an angry cat would take out a 2 BODY person.

[Susano]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

Even better' date=' hit location Head or Vitals, an angry cat would take out a 2 BODY person. [/quote']

 

Ewww....

[Grail Quest]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

Realize this' date=' as well. With 2 BODY people, you have people getting killed by an angry house cat. (1 point HKA versus no armor = 1 point of BODY!)[/quote']

 

Lot of good mechanical proof so far, although for me it just highlights a lot of SFX difficulties that I will have to sift though before deciding where I want to set BODY.

2 clearly seems too low. Killing attacks don't concern me now as much as the results of normal attacks. Even if we dispute the validity of a non-specific "Haymaker" attack, a spinning roundhouse could crunch out an extra 2 DC or so.

 

As for the cat, you are assuming that a cat can actually do the equivalent of 1 point of Killing Damage. I hardly think this is reasonable. I do agree that the cat's attacks can qualify as Killing Damage, but if the damage is set at 1 pip of Killing because that's what the system lower limit can support, is a mechanical loophole.

For example, are you going to give a rat bite or a mouse bite the same amount of damage? The same thing happens in the D20 system: At some point the system breaks down and they just handwave it all away and you end up with default damage of 1 for any successful hit (although I don't blame anyone for not wanting to do fractions).

Also, if we allow that a cat's full-strength bite is the most powerful attack it can come up with, we must also look at the SFX and note that a cat can't get its jaws around all that much on a very big target (especially if you wear jeans ).

[The Souljourner]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

What everyone else said - current rules are plenty deadly if you use bleeding and hit locations (which are definitely suitable for a gritty heroic campaign).

 

-Nate

[Lucius]

Hitting the Head an FX or mandatory?

 

2 BODY because it affects other things than just getting stabbed. It means that lions can kill antelope with a bite to the neck instead of having to chew there. It means grizzlies can kill cows with a swipe with their paw (which they are reputedly able to do). With BODY at a base of 10' date=' this seems remarkably hard to do [u']without using Hit Locations[/u].

 

I suppose I should have started with this question instead: Are we basing results on there always being hit locations involved?

.

 

You said you wanted a "realistic" campaign. Therefore of course I assumed you're using hit locations.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Still beating a dead palindromedary.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Hitting the Head an FX or mandatory?

 

I've long used a general "instant kill" house rule similar to Fitz's in various genre campaigns, including grittier superheroic ones. If a character takes an amount of BODY damage after Defenses equal to their starting BODY from a single attack - including Coordinated attacks, and counting modifiers for Hit Locations - the character has to make a CON Characteristic Roll or die immediately from shock (which is actually a pretty realistic outcome). Note that with their higher than average CON scores most heroic types will make that roll, and their higher BODY scores mean that they often don't have to roll at all, so using this rule doesn't affect them adversely in most cases. The possibility of immediate death is still there, though.

 

For higher-fatality campaigns you can just ignore the CON roll altogether. I've also found that that works well as a "mook rule" when you want lots of slaughter of cannon fodder or innocent bystanders; you just assume that anyone you want to die automatically failed their roll.

 

This has given me all the realistic NPC (and PC) deaths I could want.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

In my FH campaign' date=' all the normals start with stats of 8, while PCs get 10 because they're so gosh-darned heroic and superior and all.[/quote']

 

According to the rulebook, that's exactly the HERO System's default assumption, as well. That 2 BODY difference can have a significant impact, especially in conjunction with a house rule like the "instant kill" one I posted above.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

Joe Average is attacking John Average with a haymaker.

 

Joe has 10 STR which is average.

 

Hit Location:

Head - (6 BODY - 2 PD) x 2 = 8 BODY Damage

.............

 

I hesitate to mention this - and i had to check for my earlier post - but I think the maximum haymaker damage from a 10 str character is 4d6 because of the 'added damage/doubling' rule.

 

Doesn't detract from the point though: if you use hit locations then virtually everything can be deadly.

 

 

.............................................................................................

 

 

If you are in a supers game and NOT using hit locations I'd be inclined to give most normals 5 BODY, making a normal hit by a super likely to be killed or at least put on the 'critical' list.

 

I think that there is good reason in heroic campaigns to limit the amount of extra BODY even PCs can purchase. A human with 20 BODY is ridiculously tough, but even that depends ont he type of game you are playing and whether you want PC deaths to be a realistic threat.

 

I've already said I think the bleeding rules could do with a little beefing up, and don't forget the 'wounding' rules - when you first take BODY you make an EGO roll, failure meaning no offensive actions. You could expand that so that ALL BODY causing injuries require the EGO roll - first or not - and mook level characters could simply pass out if they fail.

 

The point of this, as I understand it, is to allow heroic PCs to wade through hordes of mooks. All I'd point out is that they don't have to be dead to no longer be a threat or hinderance to the characters.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

As for the cat' date=' you are [u']assuming[/u] that a cat can actually do the equivalent of 1 point of Killing Damage. I hardly think this is reasonable.

If you ever in the area, I'll introduce you to our cat, Jeff.

[Grail Quest]

Lion versus Gazelle / Buffalo Benchmark

 

Further research on the net has suggested that one of the benchmark situations I had in mind was probably wrong.

 

Lions that hunt Cape Buffalo frequently resort not to raw damage at the neck, but to asphyxiation, as it is often the case that their teeth do not actually break the skin:

 

"In fact, when killing very large prey, such as cape buffalo, a lion's teeth often don't even break the skin," he added. "Big prey are killed through slow suffocation." (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/04/0405_050405_marsupialjaws_2.html)

 

Which suggests that if our HERO lion can get its jaws around a gazelle or a buffalo, it might take more than a single chomp to kill it. As long as they hang on, they'll eventually do the job.

 

Allowing for a longer duration for the actual kill, and further allowing the lion a much smaller CV penalty to strike the neck because it's simply longer and wider on the prey, it can be the case that our HERO lion indeed does go for specifically for a neck strike (probably after grabbing the body), and even if it can't do enough to immediately inflict BODY by biting, by virtue of having a stranglehold on the neck, we can bring in "drowning" (asphyxiation) rules.

 

My revised lionness writeup (a typical female lion, massing 126 kg, and assuming a bite force corresponding to mass) does 4 DC killing on her bite against a Thomson's Gazelle and can hang on with STR 17. The Gazelle (large 30 kg specimen) has STR 5 to shake her off, PD 1, 9 BODY, and would be dead in approximately 5 phases, or, at the lion's SPD 2, about 30 seconds from the time the jaws go around its neck.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hitting the Head an FX or mandatory?

 

I've long used a general "instant kill" house rule similar to Fitz's in various genre campaigns' date=' including grittier superheroic ones. If a character takes an amount of BODY damage after Defenses equal to their starting BODY [b']from a single attack[/b] - including Coordinated attacks, and counting modifiers for Hit Locations - the character has to make a CON Characteristic Roll or die immediately from shock (which is actually a pretty realistic outcome). Note that with their higher than average CON scores most heroic types will make that roll, and their higher BODY scores mean that they often don't have to roll at all, so using this rule doesn't affect them adversely in most cases. The possibility of immediate death is still there, though.

 

For higher-fatality campaigns you can just ignore the CON roll altogether. I've also found that that works well as a "mook rule" when you want lots of slaughter of cannon fodder or innocent bystanders; you just assume that anyone you want to die automatically failed their roll.

 

This has given me all the realistic NPC (and PC) deaths I could want.

 

I've occasionally used a similar rule, but the CON Roll was only made if the BODY was done to the Head or Vitals location. While it's definately possible for someone to die from a severed limb, it typically happends because of bleeding and not most certainly not instantly.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

Even better' date=' hit location Head or Vitals, an angry cat would take out a 2 BODY person. [/quote']

I don't really hold with housecats doing Killing Damage at all. Just because their claws are sharp doesn't mean they do serious damage to your body. If all they do is make you say, "ouch," (and possibly risk infection) that's not enough to qualify for killing damage in my book. I'd probably do housecats as like 1 to 1 1/2 d6 Normal Damage (including Str) myself.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

I don't really hold with housecats doing Killing Damage at all. Just because their claws are sharp doesn't mean they do serious damage to your body. If all they do is make you say' date=' "ouch," (and possibly risk infection) that's not enough to qualify for killing damage in my book. I'd probably do housecats as like 1 to 1 1/2 d6 Normal Damage (including Str) myself.[/quote']

 

You try swallowing one whole.....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Lion versus Gazelle / Buffalo Benchmark

 

...........................................................

 

My revised lionness writeup (a typical female lion, massing 126 kg, and assuming a bite force corresponding to mass) does 4 DC killing on her bite against a Thomson's Gazelle and can hang on with STR 17. The Gazelle (large 30 kg specimen) has STR 5 to shake her off, PD 1, 9 BODY, and would be dead in approximately 5 phases, or, at the lion's SPD 2, about 30 seconds from the time the jaws go around its neck.

 

Apparently their relative DEX is also important as the lion has to make a new attack roll every phase in order to damage the gazelle whose slender neck her massive jaws are clamped around (although the gazelle would be at half DCV). So it might take a little longer than anticipated....

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

I've been ripped open by a cat once that thought he was going to fall. There was no way in hell that was stun damage.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lion versus Gazelle / Buffalo Benchmark

 

Apparently their relative DEX is also important as the lion has to make a new attack roll every phase in order to damage the gazelle whose slender neck her massive jaws are clamped around (although the gazelle would be at half DCV). So it might take a little longer than anticipated....

You sure the lion, in the name of game balance, didn't buy Continuous on that neck grip?

[Rapier]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

However, for a more heroic-level or gritty / realistic level game, I was thinking of starting BODY at 2 for 100 kg of mass, plus (EGO - 10)/5 if (EGO > 10).

 

This way, a club or mace actually has a decent chance of braining you in one go, and getting stabbed by a dagger can actually be fatal.

 

Has anyone tried something like this? Is 2 BODY too low? (remembering that death technically occurs only at -BODY).

 

Heroic games use Hit Locations. Hit Locations give MORE than enough opportunity to 1-Hit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Lion versus Gazelle / Buffalo Benchmark

 

You sure the lion' date=' in the name of game balance, didn't buy Continuous on that neck grip? [/quote']

 

Or maybe he's a martial arts lion?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

You try swallowing one whole.....

Err...I'm not going to ask.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

I've been ripped open by a cat once that thought he was going to fall. There was no way in hell that was stun damage.

Did it really contribute that highly toward your death? If ten of them did it do you think you'd be dying? Or did it just make you say/think: OOOUUUCCCHHH!

I mean, I guess it could depend on the focus of your game (with all due respect, if I had squirrels as PCs I might consider the matter differently).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

Heroic games use Hit Locations. Hit Locations give MORE than enough opportunity to 1-Hit.

Well, some heroic games use Hit Locations. Most of mine use them rarely if ever.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

If you are in a supers game and NOT using hit locations I'd be inclined to give most normals 5 BODY' date=' making a normal hit by a super likely to be killed or at least put on the 'critical' list.[/quote']

 

Maybe you play with different AP maximums... but 10d6 is pretty run of the mill for campaigns I've seen. On average it'll do 33 stun (well more than a normal's 20 stun, knocking him out) and 8 body. That puts him at 2 body, unconscious, and probably bleeding to death (I don't know the bleeding rules very well). If the hero rolls well, the normal is at 0 or less....

 

I like that life or death is dependant on the randomness of the dice in this case... with 5 body, you almost certainly just kill him unless you get very lucky.... Of course, it all depends on how gritty you want it, but in a silver age, I like there being a chance for the guy to survive.. and what a story he could tell his friends "What, Iron Man's pulse beams? Bah, I took 'em, no big deal."

 

-Nate

[Rapier]

Re: Start BODY at 2 instead of 10

 

Did it really contribute that highly toward your death? If ten of them did it do you think you'd be dying? Or did it just make you say/think: OOOUUUCCCHHH!

I mean, I guess it could depend on the focus of your game (with all due respect, if I had squirrels as PCs I might consider the matter differently).

 

Well, and I think that is the crux of the whole issue. WHAT is STUN and WHAT is BODY?

 

Cat Scratch? I'd say no BODY and just a little STUN.

I've seen fencing injuries what caused unconsciousness but only bruised. I've also been stabbed and it was only much later that I realised it.

 

Some of those are fairly clear about where they fall on the STUN/BODY breakdown. But there are a number of injuries...baseball bat to the gut where there may be no obvious bleeding but internal injuries can kill ya. Where do you draw the line?