To Multiform or not to Multiform....

[ApocalypseZero]

That is my question.

 

I have a player that sort of wants to do a 'Human Torch' kind of transformation (with a little change physically). Originally, I did this as a Multiform, but now I am not so sure that it should be this way.

 

So, should Multiform be used for a Power Transformation, or should powers and SFX rule? Of course, it doesn't help that you can get 400 pts from Multiform also (80 AP limit).

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

Most of the time, this is handled with the "Torch" powers bought with the limitation "Only in Hero ID", and an Instant Change.

[Bloodstone]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

I would need way more details on the character in question before I could personally determine if Multiform or OIHID are appropriate. There are other routes too, depending on the SFX of the transformation and what ways (if any) the character can be prevented from using his powers.

 

However, if I were modeling it almost entierly off the Human Torch nither OIHID or Multiform would be appropriate.

 

Johnny doesn't have to "flame on" in order to use most of his powers.

[ghost-angel]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

I've always done that type as either SFX of activating his powers (I find it most appropriate for the SFX for activating an EC) or with the OIHID Limitation.

 

Multiform seems inappropriate for this, IMO, since it's really the same character only with powers active.

[ApocalypseZero]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

Well, I'll do my best to explain this mess.

 

First off, as it is built now, he is a 350 pts Character who can Multiform into a 400 pt Fire Form Demon. The True Form is an ex-cop who has ShapeShift, a Force Field, Leg Enhancements, and a gun (besides the Multiform). His Multiform is a pale comparision to his True Form on Characteristics, but is completely built on Fire, with Fire Immunity, Fire Shield, Flame Aura, and a MP with a full charged Fire Blast and a full charged Fire Ball. Doesn't really have any significant 'change' in his fire form except appearance (addition of horns, talon like hands, etc.) but there is no 'powers' associated with this (just for show).

 

But, my question isn't 'how to make the Human Torch', but more of 'Should Multiform be used for Metamorphosis/Tranformation like powers, such as into a Fiery Demon?' It seems almost as if the Multiform is being used just to get 400 pts, when this should be done in the True Form.

 

[ADDENDUM] I should completely thrash the player for making me even think of this. You can find a snippet of his behavoir in the 'General Roleplaying' thread 'How you handle certain players'.

[Bloodstone]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

Considering the dramatic change in appearance, characteristics, powers and most likely Disadvantages, it sounds like multiform is probably the best solution for the concept.

 

That said, the concept may need to be changed or the power level of the two froms brought down to suit the needs of the campaign. Just because you CAN do soemthing in HERO does not mean that you should. The GM must have final say on everything.

 

To that end, the GM must determine if he will allow a character to have a second from that is built on more points then the base form. If so, he must then decide how the second from makes up for this points disparity, if at all.

 

Typically, you would have the second from take on extra Disadvantages to "pay" the points difference. So if the base form is built on 200+150 in disadvantages, the multifrom should be built on 200+200 in Disadvantages.

 

Is everyone else in the game built on only 350pts? If so, it would probably be unwise to let a player have a from that is almost as strong as all the other players (the super cop from) and also have a second from that is actully 50 pts stronger then everyone else (fire demon o' doom).

 

Ultimatly this comes down to campaign style, fairness and trust. Multiform is a tricky power that is very easy to abuse, either intentionally or by accident. And this is coming from somone that discovered that the hard way in an attempt at making a demonic Hulk like character for one of his first HERO system characters

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

First of all, unless 5th ed changed this, which I highly doubt, the most expensive form is considered the base form for cost purposes. So if it's a 350pt game, no 400pt form.

 

From the description, with each "form" having pretty different abilities, Multiform might be the way to go, especially if they have different disads.

[ApocalypseZero]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

I think you may have hit my problem Bloodstone.

 

I feel like he is cheating by having a 350 pt character with everyone, yet also being able to go 400 pts with ease. Hmm....maybe whack 50 pts from his True Form (300 pts), keep his Multiform at 400 pts, and just re-work the powers/idea with him.

 

I think the major problem for him comes with his Point Allocation. His True Form characteristics are quite good. 45 STR, 24 DEX, 6 SPD, etc. But in his Multiform, his STR is still 45 (which I feel should be stronger), his SPD is only 3 (which seems to me a poor use of points), and overall I think he doesn't like the character (which he built, btw). When it comes down to it, I think he'd be much happier starting over and coming up with something fresh.

 

But, I still wanted to see if my choice for Multiform was valid. I began to wonder if Colossus, Thing, Hulk, etc were Multiforms (going from Normal to Powered), but maybe Multiform is not the answer, but a good option.

 

Thanks all.

[OddHat]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

Nine times out of ten, I use OIHID or just special effects rather than Mulitiform.

 

Even used as written and with good GM control, Multiform allows a PC "X" additional points only usable in that form. That is potentially a huge power boost.

[ghost-angel]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

If he's turning into himself with Fire Demon Powers then I would say Multiform is not required and may even be munchkiny. If he's turning into a Fire Demon with a different personality and other issues then Mutliform is warranted and a good model for that.

 

Also keep in mind at 400 points he should have another 50 points in Disads (or have spent experience after the game started) for you to exploit in the Fire Demon form.

[ghost-angel]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

First of all, unless 5th ed changed this, which I highly doubt, the most expensive form is considered the base form for cost purposes. So if it's a 350pt game, no 400pt form.

 

From the description, with each "form" having pretty different abilities, Multiform might be the way to go, especially if they have different disads.

5th Ed changed that - the first statement is no longer true. a 350 point Base Form (the one that pays for Multiform) may have a 400 point Alternate Form.

[Bloodstone]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

First of all, unless 5th ed changed this, which I highly doubt, the most expensive form is considered the base form for cost purposes. So if it's a 350pt game, no 400pt form.

 

5th edition changed this. The pros and cons of that change have been heavily debated on these forums.

[ApocalypseZero]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

I did at least make him pay 200 pts Disads for the 400 pts Multiform. But I still kind of feel that the Multiform is not done in the faith that it should be. Hell, I will probably take it away from him since he wanted a 'Change Word' for it (I gave him Incantations for the power), and I told him I wanted to hear a graphic description for his first transformation. He says his words with little emphasis, and then directs people to the picture for his appearance. Needless to say, he's losing XP.

[Dust Raven]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

Most of the time' date=' this is handled with the "Torch" powers bought with the limitation "Only in Hero ID", and an Instant Change.[/quote']

 

If you buy Instant Change, is OIHID still a limiting?

[Dust Raven]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

If he's turning into himself with Fire Demon Powers then I would say Multiform is not required and may even be munchkiny. If he's turning into a Fire Demon with a different personality and other issues then Mutliform is warranted and a good model for that.

 

I think Multiform would still be appropriate if the game mechanics would best suit the character. A change of personality is available, but not required. After all, you can have a character who multiforms into a dolphin or a dinosaur but retain the same personality.

 

In this case, should the Fire Demon form not have a gun or be able to use the Shape Shift power of the cop form, just as the cop form can't use the fire demon powers, then Multiform is appropriate regardless of personality.

 

Should the Fire Demon form just be a copy of the cop plus Fire Powers, than Multiform or OIHID could be apporpriate, depending on the players preference and what the GM will allow.

[TaxiMan]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

One way to limit abuse of Multiform is by examining the Disadvantages. Specifically, if a Disadvantage isn't shared between forms then it isn't as detrimental and is probably worth less. Maybe half its book value, maybe nothing at all (esp. with Instant Change).

 

This can make it extremely hard to come up with enough Disadvantages to get to the max allowed, but that's sort of my point. GM's can use this to restrict abuse of Multiform.

 

In my game, if a player needs Multiform to achieve a reasonable character concept I don't press the issue much. If they're trying to game the Power, I put the screws to 'em.

[ghost-angel]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

I think Multiform would still be appropriate if the game mechanics would best suit the character. A change of personality is available' date=' but not required. After all, you can have a character who multiforms into a dolphin or a dinosaur but retain the same personality.[/quote']

Very true, my one character with Multiform retains the personality between forms - the forms are radically different in the case of my character..

 

I was just pointing out more common uses of Multiform.

[sdsequence]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

I've been having a similar conundrum dealing with a character concept I have. She's a scientist who's developed a method to download her consciousness into a robot initially created for hazmat and search and rescue type missions. She can't do this with any other device or automaton, and can only do it at her lab/base. Her personality and mind remain the same. She and the robot would have the same point totals. Both Multiorm and OIHID seem possible, and I suppose Duplication in a way (Hero 5th Ed's Astral Form write up uses Duplication with a limitation of -1 for "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpless While Duplicate Exists").

 

Any thoughts?

[ghost-angel]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

I've been having a similar conundrum dealing with a character concept I have. She's a scientist who's developed a method to download her consciousness into a robot initially created for hazmat and search and rescue type missions. She can't do this with any other device or automaton, and can only do it at her lab/base. Her personality and mind remain the same. She and the robot would have the same point totals. Both Multiorm and OIHID seem possible, and I suppose Duplication in a way (Hero 5th Ed's Astral Form write up uses Duplication with a limitation of -1 for "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpless While Duplicate Exists").

 

Any thoughts?

Didn't see an answer so..

 

any of the above will work, they all have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

Multiform: Doesn't leave a body behind so the good Doc there is effectively invulnerable while she's downloaded. A Limitation and GM Permission could overcome this, but that feels clunky and a bad use of the power.

 

OIHID: A Decent fit, but again doesn't inherently leave a body behind.

 

Duplication: Some people don't like this idea but it has two bodies (Robots and Docs) and a Limitation can easily render one body Incapacitated at a time. If you want to represent the two Bodies being around all the time use Cannot Recombine with a Lim of "Only 1 Body is Active at a time (-1)"

 

Duplication seems, to me, the best fit for what you're desribing.

[Dust Raven]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

I've been having a similar conundrum dealing with a character concept I have. She's a scientist who's developed a method to download her consciousness into a robot initially created for hazmat and search and rescue type missions. She can't do this with any other device or automaton, and can only do it at her lab/base. Her personality and mind remain the same. She and the robot would have the same point totals. Both Multiorm and OIHID seem possible, and I suppose Duplication in a way (Hero 5th Ed's Astral Form write up uses Duplication with a limitation of -1 for "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpless While Duplicate Exists").

 

Any thoughts?

 

What happens if the robot is destroyed while she's downloaded into it? Does she snap back to her real body or die?

 

Assuming she dies, this looks like Multiform with an Immobile Focus (the base). Whether or not it's Obvious and Accessible will depend on what the transfering machine looks like and stuff. Extra Time and Concentration are also likely and appropriate, but might cause the Power to become unbalancing (for a tiny cost, you can effectively have two characters you can switch between when everyone else only has one).

[Sean Waters]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

My usual take is this:

 

If the 'super form' is the same as the base form plus powers, don't use multiform. If the super form characteristics/powers AND ESPECIALLY disadvantages are different (not just enhancements or additions) thenuse multiform.

 

Mind you it really does depend on the particular character.

[Sean Waters]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

Didn't see an answer so..

 

any of the above will work, they all have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

Multiform: Doesn't leave a body behind so the good Doc there is effectively invulnerable while she's downloaded. A Limitation and GM Permission could overcome this, but that feels clunky and a bad use of the power.

 

OIHID: A Decent fit, but again doesn't inherently leave a body behind.

 

Duplication: Some people don't like this idea but it has two bodies (Robots and Docs) and a Limitation can easily render one body Incapacitated at a time. If you want to represent the two Bodies being around all the time use Cannot Recombine with a Lim of "Only 1 Body is Active at a time (-1)"

 

Duplication seems, to me, the best fit for what you're desribing.

 

I'm not a fan of duplication for this purpose, but then I don't really see Multiform (leaves vulnerable body behind, dies if vulnerable body dies) as that clunky - it is easiy understood and implimented, and could be built as a limitation on the power or, conceivably, a disadvantage.

 

My problem with Duplication is that it also really requires a custom lim - if either BODY dies so does the other. Also I do not see only being able to use one body as what duplication is about.

 

Horses for courses, I suppose

[ghost-angel]

Re: To Multiform or not to Multiform....

 

Either/Or when you get down to it.

 

I personally don't have a problem with Duplication used that way as it inherently has two bodies.

 

Mulitform with a Focus - as Dust Raven poitned out - actually slipped my mind as a possible build.

 

So that puts it a 50/50 choice for which power to use, depending on the Players and GMs mutual vision of what's going on.

 

Duplication has some interesting implications IMO - such as eventually the Doc there transfering her own mind enough she ends up in both places at once - a possible story element is the two bodies reconciling which is the "real" Dr. and eventually they are both real, and controled simultaneously...

 

go with what feels right.