Worst comic book superfight ever

[Blue]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No' date=' the point is for the writer to give us an intelligent and entertaining way that it happens. Simply having the other guy fold up and take a cheap dive... it wouldn't entertain fans of any other kind, how can it be expected to entertain comics fans?[/quote']Very true.

Funny thing is, I'm an easier audience. I find something unreasonable every once in a while, but it doesn't bug me to distraction. And I'll be darned if one has stuck in my head. I've been thinking about this a while now (since this thread started anyway).

[Blue]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

In SM v FL Spidy physically overpowered a Herald of Galactus. That's the part I'm having trouble with.

And I'd agree with you if I didn't have a fluke in a game once have my low-powered hero take out the game's big villain. The super-scary mega villain and my character takes him out with the lucky shot of all time. Sure I was trying to ricochet the throwing star to get around the force wall, but all them levels of luck and unluck... Let's just say that if it had been put in a comic, you guys would be complaining about it right now

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

But that's the point. IN SM v FL Spidy din't find a way. The Spider-Man/ Juggernaut story was a classic, every bit as good as SM v FL was bad. Spidy outfought Cain by being smarter, using his knowledge of the character, and luring him into an area where Juggy could't get traction.

 

In SM v FL Spidy physically overpowered a Herald of Galactus. That's the part I'm having trouble with.

 

 

Spidey has a gigantic CV advantage over Firelord. As long as Spidey can inflict a little stun and as long as Firelord doesn't use area effects, then eventually he can KO Firelord. Especially if you allow Sweeps, called hit locations, multiple movebys, and other maneuvers that can increase the number of hits or damage per hit. And combined with a 8-10 Spd compared to Firelord's 5.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Note, Firelord considered grabbing a dodging Nightcrawler out of the air to be an easy task, so his own CV ain't that low. Not as high as Spidey's DCV, no, but it was hardly as gaping a mismatch as they pretended.

 

Not to mention that the idea of Spidey even leaking a few STUN through on a guy who categorizes being MegaScale Knockbacked across state lines as an /annoyance/...

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Note, Firelord considered grabbing a dodging Nightcrawler out of the air to be an easy task, so his own CV ain't that low. Not as high as Spidey's DCV, no, but it was hardly as gaping a mismatch as they pretended.

 

Not to mention that the idea of Spidey even leaking a few STUN through on a guy who categorizes being MegaScale Knockbacked across state lines as an /annoyance/...

 

 

Nightcrawler doesn't have Spidey Sense. That adds a good chunk of DCV.

 

We do know that Spidey can leak a few stun through on Titania, so it's not a stretch to say that he can leak a few on Firelord.

 

Edit In fact, it's clear that the Spidey Sense saved Spiderman several times in that story arc.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spidey being a higher DCV target than Nightcrawler, already conceded.

 

Idea that Spidey-Sense makes Spidey totally unhittable, anything *but* conceded. (Lord knows that Spider-Man comics would be a helluva lot duller if they were.)

 

As for Titania... Spidey has never KO'ed Titania with his fists. Ever. Even ASM 243 or whichever is ambiguous (see spiderfan.org review I posted earlier), and all the rest went down like Spidey vs. Juggernaut, defeat via indirect methods.

 

Let me put it this way. Being whacked upside the head with Mjolnir can't stagger Firelord. I'm supposed to believe that Spider-Man can? Spidey hits harder than Thor now? And Hercules? And freaking Ego the freaking Living Planet?

 

I just listed three things that can whack Firelord repeatedly -- in Ego's (and Heracles') case, at least as many times as Spider-Man hit him -- and not even get him particularly winded.

 

Spidey should never have even hurt the dude.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

*rereads ASM 270*

 

When Spidey went 'Maximum Spider' on Firelord, at the end, he hit him ten times. (Counting the *thok* sound effects they drew on the page.)

 

Up until this point, Firelord wasn't even showing any particular signs of injury. That's after the exploding building, the subway train, and everything else. If he were worn down, it was only by a negligible amount.

 

THOR #225, Hercules hits Firelord five times. And with bigger hits. Spidey was just throwing punches that rocked Firelord on his feet, but did no knockback. Hercules was tackling Firelord through walls, sending him flying down corridors, and for the grand finale, tackling him out a fifth-story window. (Firelord was likewise launching Hercules for the outfield fence, whenever he got in a shot. It was a very high-KB battle.)

 

By the time Thor pulled them apart and settled 'em down, they were both just getting warmed up. Neither one was even breathing hard, let alone hurt.

 

THOR #227, the grand melee vs. a horde of Ego-constructs that were built to slug it out with Thor and Hercules. Along with the aforementioned two divinities, Firelord wades into the thick of the melee, getting gang-tackled by entire squads of these things. Note, these things have been strong enough to trade punches with Thor, and durable enough to take his best attacks.

 

By the end of the melee, he's given and taken just as much buffeting on the front lines as they have, against dozens of the Ego-constructs. He's no more worn down than Thor and Hercules are, which isn't very much.

 

Ten Spider-Man jabs knocked him out, when five Hercules haymakers didn't even bruise him? Wading through Ego's construct horde (and those were class 100 constructs) is something he does like Daredevil wading through generic Hand ninjas, and ten Spider-Man jabs knocked him out?

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The Spidey Sense makes Spiderman essentially unhittable by any non area effect attacks. This has been shown numerous times in continuity. So often that I don't think I need to even defend this point.

 

Avengers 258 clearly shows Hercules 'staggering' Firelord. Enough to inflict stun even when not using full force. So a Spiderman going full force can plausibly leak stun through his defenses.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Note, the 'staggered' Firelord has very recently gotten up off a hospital bed. Think that might have had something to do with it? (Of course, given that it was Spidey that supposedly put him *INTO* that selfsame hospital bed, we have another 'inconsistent writing' problem here...)

 

*rereads Avengers 258*

 

And whaddya know, turns out that Firelord isn't even that staggered! He's just going 'Hercules? Old friend, is that you?'

 

Note. Enraged Hercules socks him in the jaw, sending him flying into one of the armored walls of Avengers Mansion hard enough to leave a Firelord-sized dent in said wall. Firelord's reaction is just to sit there, rub his jaw, and go 'Is that Hercules?' Instead of, oh, you know, actually showing signs of having taken more damage than mere Knockback.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Just like the '10 hit Firelord' had already been through a wringer of a fight with trains, buildings, exploding gas stations, etc, might have had something to do with it.

[Vigil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

IMO, the worst comic fight ever...number one with a bullet...although you wouldn't be able to see a bullet in this ridiculous piece of pap by the biggest hack to ever work in the industry...none other than John Byrne himself...took place in Alpha Flight #5 where Snowbird fought one of the Great Beasts ina raging snowstorm therby allowing Byrne to render the ebntire fight with nothing but 5 pages of completely blank panels (it's a blinding snowstorm dontcha know?), SFX and some dialogue. This had to be the biggest, most offensive sclck job by the biggest and most offensive sclckmeister to ever darken (or in this case lighten) the industry. Completely deplorable crap which he repeated 7 issues later when he callously killed of the sympbol of Canada in a trivial way. Way to go, JB.

 

Vigil

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Incidentally and this is just speculation, but I'm pretty certain that Heralds can get extra defenses through their VPPs. Which might explain why their defenses are higher in certain issues than other issues. Against Thor, Firelord would max his defenses, but against Spiderman, he might have considered it a blow to his personal pride to have to do so.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yeah, except he's showing absolutely no signs of injury after having been through all that. Not gasping for breath, not disheveled, not acting even momentarily stunned or disoriented, not even rubbing his jaw. Still fresh as a daisy.

 

Spidey even mentions specifically "He takes my best shots -- and comes up smiling!"

 

This is /after/ the subway train and the building demolition charge, BTW.

 

So no, didn't have a damn thing to do with it.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The *Surfer* can augment his physical prowess with his cosmic VPP. (edit -- and his base prowess, unaugmented, is still pretty effing ridiculous. As in 'An enraged She-Hulk can punch me in the face and I'm still unsure whether I'm being attacked or not.' ridiculous)

 

But he's the only Herald known to do so. (For that matter, he's the only Herald who actually displays a Cosmic VPP. Every other Herald is a Multipower guy, or at best a 'Limited Special Effect' VPP.)

 

Everybody else is just running off a base set of cosmic stat boosts, life supports, cosmic flight, and then a set of powers reflecting their theme. (Earth control for Terrax, flame for Firelord and Nova, additional physical brickness for Morg, etc.)

 

The Silver Surfer is not only the most powerful of Galactus' Heralds, he's also by far the most versatile -- a generalist where they are specialists. Galactus definitely favored him.

[Gary]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The *Surfer* can augment his physical prowess with his cosmic VPP.

 

But he's the only Herald known to do so. (For that matter, he's the only Herald who actually displays a Cosmic VPP. Every other Herald is a Multipower guy, or at best a 'Limited Special Effect' VPP.)

 

Everybody else is just running off a base set of cosmic stat boosts, life supports, cosmic flight, and then a set of powers reflecting their theme. (Earth control for Terrax, flame for Firelord and Nova, additional physical brickness for Morg, etc.)

 

The Silver Surfer is not only the most powerful of Galactus' Heralds, he's also by far the most versatile -- a generalist where they are specialists. Galactus definitely favored him.

 

 

Doesn't mean that they don't have extra defenses in their multipower, even if that's all they have.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Now you're *really* reaching. Cite me some evidence, what you're doing right now is just wishful thinking.

 

(Edit -- and yes, Morg clearly had additional defenses... then again, Morg apparently didn't even have a Multipower, merely additional STR, Armor, REC, and END, as he was a pure melee tank.)

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If you guys can't see the futility behind this discussion (if you can really call it that) than you are sorely in need of help.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Now you're *really* reaching. Cite me some evidence, what you're doing right now is just wishful thinking.

 

(Edit -- and yes, Morg clearly had additional defenses... then again, Morg apparently didn't even have a Multipower, merely additional STR, Armor, REC, and END, as he was a pure melee tank.)

Evidence that Firelord's defenses are higher sometimes than others would be Spidey knocking him out when, at other times, Firelord can fly through a star. See, that was easy.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If you guys can't see the futility behind this discussion (if you can really call it that) than you are sorely in need of help.

I can see the futility but I love it. I embrace it. I want to marry Futility. But, then again, I'm fickle. I may hate futility tomorrow.

[Guest Getagun]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Ben killed this SPAM.

[CBikle]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If you guys can't see the futility behind this discussion (if you can really call it that) than you are sorely in need of help.

 

I disagree.

 

This is a very important issue and it needs to be addressed.

[Susano]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I disagree.

 

This is a very important issue and it needs to be addressed.

 

You're right. Congress needs to create a commission to look into it.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Lobo might be a dumb psychotic thug in attitude... but he's got enough strength to casually use an 18-wheeler semitruck as a melee weapon' date=' the ability to regenerate almost instantly from any wound that does not actually vaporize every individual cell in his body, and enough durability to go three rounds with Superman and leave the ring still able to walk. (He has no real hope of *beating* Supes... he's nowhere near /that/ strong... but he's got enough cockroach durability that Supes actually has to take more than a couple of minutes to pound him down.)[/quote']

 

 

Speaking of power inflation over the years... I liked him better in the Omega Men, when he was just a highly skilled assassin who regenerated.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spidey has a gigantic CV advantage over Firelord. As long as Spidey can inflict a little stun and as long as Firelord doesn't use area effects' date=' then eventually he can KO Firelord. Especially if you allow Sweeps, called hit locations, multiple movebys, and other maneuvers that can increase the number of hits or damage per hit. And combined with a 8-10 Spd compared to Firelord's 5.[/quote']

Presumes Spider-Man never runs out of END. Once he starts burning STUN, he's toast. The Down Side of a 10 Speed. Or are you now going to claim he KO'ed Firelord without Pushing?

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Speaking of power inflation over the years... I liked him better in the Omega Men' date=' when he was just a highly skilled assassin who regenerated.[/quote']

Lobo wasn't a victim of power inflation as much as editorial irresponsibility. He was turned into a satirical character where the overkill factor was the whole point. Then someone said "Let's take him mainstream" showing that the joke had gone completely over their heads. After his first mini-series, he should have stayed in the satire zone. He was great there. Mainstream...to say it doesn't make sense severely underestimates the situation.